How is one saved?

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anonymoususer

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I don’t want to turn this into a Catholic vs. Protestant discussion. I believe it’s a justified question. I guess I’m struggling with the whole “works” thing. If one is not saved by grace alone, but by grace and works, then does that mean that some who are more disciplined with their works are more justified before God?

What do you think?
 
My thoughts are that none of us is anymore justified than the other.
Through Christ, we ALL and EACH have been perfectly justified.

However, our good works, while not doing ANYTHING to “merit” our way to Heaven, are simply the outward signs of our “acceptance” of His gift of Salvation. If we accept Salvation, then we will naturally want to act in a way that “follows Christ”…when we refuse good works, or commit mortal sins, we reject our Salvation.

Since God knows our hearts, and our intentions, He judges each of us as to those things. Therefore, we can not be any “less justified” than our brother, for the gift is the same for all.

I’m not sure I’ve articulated my thoughts well, but I hope it helps you.

Peace!
 
anonymoususer said:
I don’t want to turn this into a Catholic vs. Protestant discussion. I believe it’s a justified question. I guess I’m struggling with the whole “works” thing. If one is not saved by grace alone, but by grace and works, then does that mean that some who are more disciplined with their works are more justified before God?

What do you think?
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Methinks one is either justified or not; it’s not a matter of degree. Scripture is quite clear on a “reward” in heaven; some will be rewarded more than others, based not on them being justified, but on their obedience in carrying out his will through good works.

Think of it this way…while I may be justified and Mother Theresa may be justified, I don’t deserve anywhere near the rewards in eternity that she does…based on our respective good works.
 
I have what I feel is an understanding that is Biblically based AND Catholic. I will not budge, but if someone wants to tell me that it is not Catholic, I will change my understanding of Catholicism to fit the facts, should this be necessary.
We are saved by grace and not of ourselves, lest any man should boast, as St. Paul says. This includes Protestant believers. There is no heirarchy in Heaven. We know precious little about heasven, except in the Kingdom of God the reign of God is unlike anything we know on earth. I would not expect to find that I am comparing my salvation with Mother Theresa’s to see who got the greater reward. I do not expect it will occur to anyone.
As for works, these are the works of mercy. as described in the parable ot the last judgement and the letter of James, where anyone’s faith without works is “dead”. This would mean being deaf to the cries of those in in need, among other things. It does not contradict St. Paul, it complements him.
However, and here is where I take issue with Catholicism (even though I am a baptized and confirmed Catholic by conversion) I do not believe I gain merit for salvation by religious works. Holy days of obligation, for example, add nothing to the salvation that is already mine in Christ. I do not believe in Purgatory (!) And neither do I believe in indulgences. The sacraments come from the Gospels, and they can be trusted, but they are not the only means to salvation, Jesus is-or no-one outside the Roman Catholic Church could be saved.
I dare to think along with the saints, sometimes dialogue with them, sometimes argue theology with them. It does no harm to question Church teaching-you may find what really matters, and the process of discernment allows the Spirit to reinforce what is important.
I am not discussing abortion, sexuality, birth control, and the usual litany of excuses to avoid hearing the Spirit and answering the call of God in one’s life. These have nothing to do with the Gospel except where they may intersect someone’s life and behavior. I am not going there.
I am only able to remain in the church marginally, bcause the compromises with the Gospel some parishes make make life unbearable for me, and I must drive a distance to go to another, and with gas prices what they are, I may not get to church every Sunday.
If anyone wishes to call this mortal sin, I say, the Devil Lucifer is waiting to escort you to your new appointment in Hell.
May God bless Pope Benedict-the American Catholic church is a row to hoe. God knows.
 
I do not believe I gain merit for salvation by religious works.
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The Catholic Church does not believe this either. You must have misunderstood something in your studies. The Church does not Teach that we gain merit for Salvation through works…but that works are necessary to receive the gift of Salvation.

Sola Fidele, meaning, faith alone…teaches, in protestantism that we are “once saved, always saved”…this is not true according to the Church…we CAN lose our Salvation if we do not live according to the way that God has commanded. Hence, good works are a reflection of that Way…

I’m not sure where you learned that we believe that our works merit our salvation?
 
I thought this might be worth chewing on.
Council of Trent:
CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.
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anonymoususer said:
I don’t want to turn this into a Catholic vs. Protestant discussion. I believe it’s a justified question. I guess I’m struggling with the whole “works” thing. If one is not saved by grace alone, but by grace and works, then does that mean that some who are more disciplined with their works are more justified before God?

What do you think?
Click to expand...
The CC teaches that neither faith nor works merit salvation-it is by grace-the free gift of God. But God chose to use us in the work of saving us-he won’t go against our free consent and cooperation. He wants us to come to believe in and trust in Him and also do the things He has planned for us, including obeying the commandment to love, because sinners won’t enter heaven:

Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up.
Gal. 6

In other words, what we do counts…of course.
 
As a convert from protestantism I may have some screwy ideas, but couldn’t resist this one.

First, God is love, and created us to show that love. We are born into a fallen world, yet He made a way for us to get to heaven. I once read that God will take all but the last step. This one He leaves up to us. That one step is one of faith through grace. It is our obedient answer to His calling.

It is grace, faith, love and obedience all rolled into one. We show our love by our obedience. But we couldn’t do that much if God hadn’t given us that “gift.”

We need to believe that Jesus paid the ultimate price for our souls. He is to be our savior and guide. And we are to give Him the love due Him. The “first love” as it is called in Revelations. We should be and do all out of that love.

Gee, I’m getting myself all confused here, and I don’t think I’m really saying what it is I want to say. As the protestants put it, we must “accept Christ as our ‘personal’ Lord and Savior.” But it doesn’t end with that one time deal. It is a daily choice. It is our choice.

I think I could probably go on and on about this. So I’d better shut up before I do just that!
 
anonymoususer said:
I guess I’m struggling with the whole “works” thing. If one is not saved by grace alone, but by grace and works…
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Did you mean “grace”, or “faith”? Or do you not see a difference?

I know this is from Wikipedia (:p), but still: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_gratia

==================================================

Catholic doctrine, as defined by the Council of Trent, holds that salvation is made possible only by grace; the faith and works of men are secondary means that have their origins in and are sustained by grace. (See Catechism of the Catholic Church No. 1987-2029.)

In November 1999, the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church issued the “Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification” that said, “By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping us and calling us to good works.”
 
…why was this placed in the “Moral Theology” forum, anyway? 😛
 
thistle said:
Why not? Its scriptural.

catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp
scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
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Dear Thistle:
I apologize if I appear uncivil. Charity, according to St. Paul is more important than knowledge, for “without love we are nothing”.
Scripture does say things about refining fire. I think purgatory is a theological elaboration on the subject. (“I”) think this. I know what historically, at least for the last millenium or so, the church has taught.
Why is this important? Because I would rather deal with the everyday, in the present, as this is the day the Lord has made, and let us be glad and reoice in it.
I like some of the things Pope Benedict has to say in his eencyclicals and books.
I have a high standard of truth when it comes to matters concerning religion. It sometimes may offend when I am uncompromising in my discussion of the facts.
I believe that we are called to love one another first, before we are to find doctrinal differences a reason for argument. In the past, this could mean someone’s death, often my means far worse than any found in the history of civlization, except among the most brutal.
I have always preferred St. Paul’s promise that nothing can separate use from the love of God to the ease with which we could fall into mortal sin and hell at one time-and that, not so long ago-in the history of the church.
This is not to presume. If one grew up in the church, and were not a convert, one might have a different impression of those times.
May God bless you with his peace and consolation.
I may say in good conscience that Jesus is the Rock, my Redeemer, and as the charismatic song used to go, bless the name of Jesus…
 
anonymoususer said:
I don’t want to turn this into a Catholic vs. Protestant discussion. I believe it’s a justified question. I guess I’m struggling with the whole “works” thing. If one is not saved by grace alone, but by grace and works, then does that mean that some who are more disciplined with their works are more justified before God?
Click to expand...
What do you think?How Is A Catholic Saved?
That is a question that is probably best left to God Himself since He alone is able to judge.

However, you might want to remember Hebrews 10:24] and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,
 
One is saved by responding to and cooperating with the unmerited grace of God.

As to the “discipline” thing, remember “to whom much is given, from him much is expected”. God judges our hearts perfectly based upon our internal makeup and our external circumstances.
 
I think the whole focus on works is misguided. The focus needs to be on free will. Does God take away our free will the moment we accept him? Do we become less fully human upon becoming Christian? If he does then why is not every Christian a perfect “works machine”, doing each and every good work God puts before us? But can any of us actually make that claim for ourselves?

As long as we have free will here on earth, we can turn away from God (slightly or completely).
 
mom_of_ten said:
My thoughts are that none of us is anymore justified than the other.
Through Christ, we ALL and EACH have been perfectly justified.
Click to expand...
Newadvent.org says:

“If man, as the Protestant theory of justification teaches, is justified by faith alone, by the external justice of Christ, or God, the conclusion which Martin Luther (Sermo de nat. Maria) drew must follow, namely that “we are all equal to Mary the Mother of God and just as holy as she”. But if on the other hand, according to the teaching of the Church, we are justifed by the justice and merits of Christ in such fashion that this becomes formally our own justice and holiness, then there must result an inequality of grace in individuals, and for two reasons: first, because according to the generosity of God or the receptive condition of the soul an unequal amount of grace is infused; then, also, because the grace originally received can be increased by the performance of good works (Trent, Sess. VI, cap. vii, can. xxiv). This possibility of increase in grace by good works, whence would follow its inequality in individuals, find its warrant in those Scriptural texts in which an increase of grace is either expressed or implied (Proverbs 4:18; Sirach 18:22; 2 Corinthians 9:10; Ephesians 4:7; 2 Peter 3:18; Revelation 22:11). Tradition had occasion, as early as the close of the fourth century, to defend the old Faith of the Church against the heretic Jovinian, who strove to introduce into the Church the Stoic doctrine of the equality of all virtue and all vice. St. Jerome (Con. Jovin., II, xxiii) was the chief defender of orthodoxy in this instance. The Church never recognized any other teaching than that laid down by St. Augustine (Tract. in Jo., vi, 8): “Ipsi sancti in ecclesia sunt alii aliis sanctiores, alii aliis meliores.” Indeed, this view should commend itself to every thinking man.”

You cannot be a “pick and choose” Catholic. The Church teaches: [Catechism of Catholic Church]

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then **merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. **Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
 
Here’s a quote from Trent, the 6th session:

**CHAPTER X.
On the increase of Justification received.

Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, “Give unto us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity.”**
 
anonymoususer said:
I don’t want to turn this into a Catholic vs. Protestant discussion. I believe it’s a justified question. I guess I’m struggling with the whole “works” thing. If one is not saved by grace alone, but by grace and works, then does that mean that some who are more disciplined with their works are more justified before God?

What do you think?
Click to expand...
They would not be more justified, since you are either justified or you are not. However, there does appear to be an aspect of reward based on what we do in this life: some may receive a greater reward in heaven than others.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
People are starting to get confused over the two uses of the term “justification”. One is an act of God, the other is an ongoing state. Understanding the difference makes these apparent contradictions vanish.

newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm
 
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