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Calgar
Guest
That’s not entirely true. It’s just dificult to continue a discussion with someone using their church documents to prove their church’s point.
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David
Guest
Calgar
You asked for proof that infants were not excluded.
I think if you spend some time meditating on these verses, you will see that children too small to walk were indeed included.
Peace
David
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brb3
Guest
John tells us in his Gospel that Jesus didn’t ‘water’ baptize. The apostles were appointed to do this. The apostles baptized everyone infants & children ] in families that converted.
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jerry_joseph
Guest
For attaining salvation (eternal life) , requires following things.
3: Faith in Jesus and grace from God.
" For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Salvation is given by God to those who have all these Qualities in their life…
- Baptism
- Holy Eucharism …
3: Faith in Jesus and grace from God.
" For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
- Through Good deeds and virtues, serving our fellow beings.
Salvation is given by God to those who have all these Qualities in their life…
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Stilldreamn,
Welcome to CAF!!
Very exciting news about your grandson. I’m sure this Easter will be a joyous day for your family.
Peace and blessings,
Anna
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Nicea325
Guest
Not entirely true? I said many non-Catholics…not every non-Catholic,thus it is very true. Using church documents? You mean historical evidence which conflicts with a lot of Protestanism? You means those historical facts?
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Calgar,
One thing to consider is that the Early Church Fathers (ECF’s) are essentially the Fathers of all of Christendom. We all share the same beginnings.
I will use Irenaeus as an example.
Irenaeus
“He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age” (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).
Irenaeus saw Polycarp and heard his teachings. Polycarp was the last living connection with the Apostles; and was a disciple of Saint John the Evangelist. So, there were only three generations between Jesus and Irenaeus. This close proximity makes the works of Irenaeus a valuable testament to the beliefs and practices of the early Church.
Peace,
Anna
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onmyknees
Guest
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
**Baptism formula commissioned to the Church from Jesus himself **to be conducted in a Rite of baptism, with power and authority to teach the nations…
Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus approached and said, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore and make disciples of all nations, BAPTIZING THEM IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, AND OF THE SON, AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.
What is beautiful about this baptismal sacrament is when Jesus states; “And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age”.
Acts 16:31 is not revealing the baptism formula of Jesus Christ, Acts teaches what involves “faith” in taking place in baptism.
**This Catholic “faith” professed either by the one being baptized or the parents and God parents of the infant, deaf mute, mentally ill, handicapped etc. being baptized… ****“baptism never refuses or excludes any one soul from entering into the kingdom of heaven”, **
In fact Jesus teaches that know one can see nor enter the kingdom without being (baptized) born of water and spirit, John 3:3-5
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
God also spoke and revealed to the prophets of a coming baptism that will save God’s chosen by the waters of baptism and recieve the Spirit of God in this new birth.
Ezekiel 36:25* I will sprinkle clean water over you to make you clean; from all your impurities and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.n 27 I will put my spirit within you so that you walk in my statutes, observe my ordinances, and keep them.
Ezekiel 36:25* I will sprinkle clean water over you to make you clean; from all your impurities and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.n 27 I will put my spirit within you so that you walk in my statutes, observe my ordinances, and keep them.
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onmyknees
Guest
This is true but the key words here are that you walk in my statutes, observe my ordinances, and keep them. So baptism does cleanse you of your sins and gives you new birth in the Holy Spirit but after being baptized we can choose to not live by Jesus’ words. So even after being baptized we have the possibility of being saved or not?
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
So once a person freely accepts the free gift “baptism” of salvation; Now in the Kingdom of God journeying on this earth, “We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling” so that one may not lose his/her salvation?
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onmyknees
Guest
Yes, Paul was exhorting the Philippian believers to bring about or achieve their own salvation by obedience to God.
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JustaServant
Guest
You have your own separate set of documents?
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stewstew03
Guest
Calgar, don’t look now but you’re making an excellent case for Tradition…
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Anna_Scott
Guest
But we are unable to do anything without the Grace of God and the powerful working of the Holy Spirit. We cannot achieve our own salvation.
Peace,
Anna
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AbideWithMe
Guest
I haven’t read any part of this thread except this page, so please excuse me if this is way off topic. But, in the passage from Irenaeus here (Against Heresies, Book two, chapter 22, section 4 at New Advent) one of its main points (not included in the quoted part, but in the “…” ) is that Irenaeus is saying that Jesus was almost fifty years old when He died.
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onmyknees
Guest
Yes, I agree that the grace from God through the sacraments gives us the ability to bring about or achieve our own salvation.
“As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”
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Anna_Scott
Guest
AbideWithMe,. . .But, in the passage from Irenaeus here (Against Heresies, Book two, chapter 22, section 4 at New Advent) one of its main points (not included in the quoted part, but in the “…” ) is that Irenaeus is saying that Jesus was almost fifty years old when He died.
That is a very good point, and I will leave this for those more accomplished in the study of the works of Irenaeus and the meaning in context of the time in which he lived.
Remember Irenaeus was arguing against the Gnostic heresy, which claimed Jesus continued to preach for only one year after His baptism and suffered in the twelfth month.
Irenaeus said:
“. . .He did not therefore preach only for one year, nor did He suffer in the twelfth month of the year. For the period included between the thirtieth and the fiftieth year can never be regarded as one year, unless indeed, among their Æons, there be so long years assigned to those who sit in their ranks with Bythus in the Pleroma. . .”
Irenaeus seems to be making the point that Jesus was between the age of 31 and 50, having lived past the first stage of life and was qualified to be a teacher. Yet he points to the fact that the teachings of Jesus were advanced beyond his human years.
Irenaeus wrote:
"6. But, besides this, those very Jews who then disputed with the Lord Jesus Christ have most clearly indicated the same thing. For when the Lord said to them, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day; and he saw it, and was glad,” they answered Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
**Notice Irenaeus is quoting John 8: 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
**
Irenaeus also makes the point that Jesus identifies with human beings of every age:
“He had appointed for the human race, but sanctifying every age, by that period corresponding to it which belonged to Himself. For He came to save all through means of Himself— all, I say, who through Him are born again to God — infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men. He therefore passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, thus sanctifying infants; a child for children, thus sanctifying those who are of this age, being at the same time made to them an example of piety, righteousness, and submission; a youth for youths, becoming an example to youths, and thus sanctifying them for the Lord. So likewise He was an old man for old men, that He might be a perfect Master for all, not merely as respects the setting forth of the truth, but also as regards age, sanctifying at the same time the aged also, and becoming an example to them likewise. Then, at last, He came on to death itself, that He might be “the first-born from the dead, that in all things He might have the pre-eminence,” Colossians 1:18 the Prince of life, Acts 3:15 existing before all, and going before all.”
I’ll admit it’s confusing. So, hopefully someone can give you a better answer.
Peace,
Anna
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AbideWithMe
Guest
Hi Anna —
I’m sorry about going off topic. Those passages from Irenaeus were something I’ve wondered about for awhile, so I guess I could have kept wondering awhile longer rather than insert my question about them into this thread.
I did just today find some internet articles addressing Irenaeus’ apparent belief that Jesus died at between forty and fifty years old. From what I’ve read so far, it seems that some think Irenaeus’ motif of “recapitulation” led him to believe and write mistakenly that Jesus had to have experienced old age, but Irenaeus didn’t explicitly claim that the Apostles taught this.
I guess this is a subject for another thread. Probably someone here knows more about this topic.
I’m sorry about going off topic. Those passages from Irenaeus were something I’ve wondered about for awhile, so I guess I could have kept wondering awhile longer rather than insert my question about them into this thread.
I did just today find some internet articles addressing Irenaeus’ apparent belief that Jesus died at between forty and fifty years old. From what I’ve read so far, it seems that some think Irenaeus’ motif of “recapitulation” led him to believe and write mistakenly that Jesus had to have experienced old age, but Irenaeus didn’t explicitly claim that the Apostles taught this.
I guess this is a subject for another thread. Probably someone here knows more about this topic.
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