How is Original Sin Just?

[grannymh]

Ad hominem attacks are bad form in any discussion. You mentioned that I am twisting words, however I am unaware of any instance in which I have done so. If you could point out where I have, I would be much obliged.

Here is the simple 3rd person statement about “twisting” from post 31. Today, I put the words “everyone is capable” in bold, because that is not an Ad Hominem attack on an individual person. Some kind of clear specification is usually required for an attack.
"Everyone is capable" of twisting words to support their favorite accusations against whatever Catholic teaching is annoying."

 

[jcrichton]

Yes, it would seem that everything is just from that one quote, but earlier the Catechism states “All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: “sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned.”” (CSC 402). The legal definition of “implicated” is “incriminating involvement.” So, in essence the Catechism is saying that we are guilty, but we didn’t commit a personal fault. Still, things are not exactly clear.
I am unsure what you mean by your question “However, God did not commit Original Sin or did He?” However, as far as going back to Genesis, according to Church Teaching the accounts in Genesis aren’t literally true (at least, the ones with regard to what I am interested in, namely the first few chapters). I have taken a course on the first five books of the Bible, and that did not give me any definitive answer to the question either. In light of these two points, going back and reading those chapters all over again doesn’t seem to be an exercise that will shed light upon the issue.

I understand, and completely agree with all of your points here. However, I am trying to find out why an all Just and Merciful God would implicate (make guilty) every single human being in a sin that they couldn’t possibly have known of, much less committed. One solution is that everyone commits Original Sin themselves, and must repent through Baptism, but that is a heresy.

…your query seems to verge on the issue of damnation ('why would a Loving Merciful God damn anyone to hell?"). The reality is that our finite being cannot comprehend the infinite–though some of us do the best they can to reason out God’s Means and Purpose… blaming God for Adam’s and Eve’s disobedience does exonerate them (and their descendants) from all the culpability of their actions (much like hollowood’s spirituality: ‘God is bad; evil is good’).

The reality is that God did not have to Ransom humanity; but He Did!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[grannymh]

When people speak about God’s love, mercy, and justice, it is common sense to start at the beginning of creation.

“I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible,” (beginning of the Creed which Catholics profess at Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass) “In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1) “God made every kind of wild animal, every kind of tame animal, and every kind of thing that crawls on the ground. God saw that it was good.” (Genesis 1: 25)

Then there is a pause in Genesis. The author does have a working brain. He uses one of the basic scientific principles – observe without prejudice – to signify that there is a mighty change in creation.

From Genesis, chapter 1. usccb.org/bible/genesis/1
26
Then God said: Let us make* human beings in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the tame animals, all the wild animals, and all the creatures that crawl on the earth.
27
God created mankind in his image;
in the image of God he created them;
male and female* he created them.
28
God blessed them and God said to them: Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it.* Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that crawl on the earth.
29
God also said: See, I give you every seed-bearing plant on all the earth and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit on it to be your food;
30
and to all the wild animals, all the birds of the air, and all the living creatures that crawl on the earth, I give all the green plants for food. And so it happened.
31
God looked at everything he had made, and found it very good. Evening came, and morning followed—the sixth day.

As part of “human beings” we find that we are extra good because we are in the image of God. We have a rational spiritual soul which gives us the ability to initiate and control our own actions. (CCC 1730) Yes, I know that there are people who cannot do this. The ability, being spiritual, still exists. It is the material decomposing anatomy which causes problems.

Because we are human with a spiritual soul (image) we can seek our Creator. In reality, it is our Creator Who reaches out to us.

From Genesis, chapter 2. usccb.org/bible/genesis/2
8
The LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and placed there the man whom he had formed.

What follows is the author’s description of the Garden of Eden which is a happy place to be. Regardless of how we describe the Garden of Eden, the basic truth is that God loves us. After Original Sin, God still loves us.

From the Gospel of John, chapter 3 usccb.org/bible/john/3
16
For God so loved the world that he gave* his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.

Once it is established that God loves us, the next thing to discover is how we respond with our own human love.

Thoughts?

 

[fhansen]

I understand, and completely agree with all of your points here. However, I am trying to find out why an all Just and Merciful God would implicate (make guilty) every single human being in a sin that they couldn’t possibly have known of, much less committed. One solution is that everyone commits Original Sin themselves, and must repent through Baptism, but that is a heresy.

The Church has struggled with your question-which is why, for example, the concept of Limbo for unbaptized infants is now being revisited. Are humans eternally hell or Limbo-bound from birth due to a condition they had no part in bringing on themselves?

As the Church teaches, the first thing to remind ourselves of is that God is infinitely just and loving. No matter what He does it will be the right thing, and, as has been revealed in various ways, we’ll all understand and be completely satisfied with His actions and judgments in the end, whatever they are.

In some sense Adam represents all humanity. We are him and he is us. A part of each of us, IMO, unconsciously condones his choice; we wonder what we might miss if we become fully subjugated to God; we might be willing to sin even if we know or think it might be…sin. We might prefer to leave that door open IOW, tending to prefer *ourselves *to God as the catechism teaches that Adam did. So we eventually implicate ourselves in Adam’s sin, in one way or another. But in any case we must first of all recognize the injustice, the sin in our lives, the rebellion, our lack of communion with God. Adam doesn’t decide for us, on a moment to moment basis, to remain in the unjust state we were born into. Even if we aren’t responsible for the origin of this state, should we nonetheless be held responsible for its eradication, to the extent that we can cooperate with God in the process?

Again, I think there’s a bigger perspective to look at in all this. From the Fall of man to the sins of this day, God is surprised by absolutely* nothing,* knowing the beginning from the end. His purpose is to perfect His creation, out of a struggle, a struggle aided by grace, the struggle with sin, the choice between good and evil, life and death, God or no God. Adam just got the ball in play. There is no other game, no possible world other than this one.

Perhaps it could be said that God deemed it worthy for all humanity to spend time in the pigsty, like Prodigals sojourned from the Father, in order to come to appreciate what is truly worthy of our love and attention, whose voice is truly worth heeding.

 

[Daniel_Lysinger]

Here is the correct Catholic teaching.

**CCC 1260 **“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

There is a specific name for what you are referring to here. It is “Baptism of Desire.” Besides the normal kind of baptism, there are two other distinct kinds, and when I say No-one can be saved without baptism, I am referring to all types of baptism.

Here is the simple 3rd person statement about “twisting” from post 31. Today, I put the words “everyone is capable” in bold, because that is not an Ad Hominem attack on an individual person. Some kind of clear specification is usually required for an attack.
“Everyone is capable” of twisting words to support their favorite accusations against whatever Catholic teaching is annoying."

I apologize for taking the meaning of your words wrongly. I assumed that you were referring me, and I was wrong. Bien sûr, I will make every effort to understand your postings from now on.

The Church has struggled with your question-which is why, for example, the concept of Limbo for unbaptized infants is now being revisited. Are humans eternally hell or Limbo-bound from birth due to a condition they had no part in bringing on themselves?

Sadly, Limbo is no longer a possibility. mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSL2028721620070420

I apologize for any formatting errors, I am using my phone for this post

 

[Vico]

There is a specific name for what you are referring to here. It is “Baptism of Desire.” Besides the normal kind of baptism, there are two other distinct kinds, and when I say No-one can be saved without baptism, I am referring to all types of baptism. I apologize for taking the meaning of your words wrongly. I assumed that you were referring me, and I was wrong. Bien sûr, I will make every effort to understand your postings from now on. Sadly, Limbo is no longer a possibility. mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSL2028721620070420

I apologize for any formatting errors, I am using my phone for this post

It is still a possibility, since it was only a theological hypothesis and never a defined truth of faith. What is consistent with dogma of the Councils is that those souls “in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds”. That could mean a natural state of peace, without the Beatific Vision.

Denzinger 464 – Council of Lyons II (1274), Declaration Concerning the Procession of the Holy Spirit, promulgated by Pope Gregory X

464 We believe that the true Church is holy, Catholic, apostolic, and one, in which is given one holy baptism and true remission of all sins. We believe also in the true resurrection of this flesh, which now we bear, and in eternal life. We believe also that the one author of the New and the Old Testament, of the Law, and of the Prophets and the Apostles is the omnipotent God and Lord. This is the true Catholic Faith, and this in the above mentioned articles the most holy Roman Church holds and teaches. But because of diverse errors introduced by some through ignorance and by others from evil, it (the Church) says and teaches that those who after baptism slip into sin must not be rebaptized, but by true penance attain forgiveness of their sins. Because if they die truly repentant in charity before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for (sins) committed and omitted, their souls are cleansed after death by purgatorical or purifying punishments, as Brother John * has explained to us. And to relieve punishments of this kind, the offerings of the living faithful are of advantage to these, namely, the sacrifices of Masses, prayers, alms, and other duties of piety, which have customarily been performed by the faithful for the other faithful according to the regulations of the Church. However, the souls of those who after having received holy baptism have incurred no stain of sin whatever, also those souls who, after contracting the stain of sin, either while remaining in their bodies or being divested of them, have been cleansed, as we have said above, are received immediately into heaven. The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments. The same most holy Roman Church firmly believes and firmly declares that nevertheless on the day of judgment “all” men will be brought together with their bodies “before the tribunal of Christ” “to render an account” of their own deeds [Rom. 14:10 ].

Denzinger 693 – Council of Florence (1438-1445), Decree for the Greeks (from the Bull Laetentur coeli), promulgated by Pope Eugenius IV 6th July, 1439

693 De novissimis] * It has likewise defined, that, if those truly penitent have departed in the love of God, before they have made satisfaction by the worthy fruits of penance for sins of commission and omission, the souls of these are cleansed after death by purgatorial punishments; and so that they may be released from punishments of this kind, the suffrages of the living faithful are of advantage to them, namely, the sacrifices of Masses, prayers, and almsgiving, and other works of piety, which are customarily performed by the faithful for other faithful according to the institutions of the Church. And that the souls of those, who after the reception of baptism have incurred no stain of sin at all, and also those, who after the contraction of the stain of sin whether in their bodies, or when released from the same bodies, as we have said before, are purged, are immediately received into heaven, and see clearly the one and triune God Himself just as He is, yet according to the diversity of merits, one more perfectly than another. Moreover, the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds [see n.464].

 

[grannymh]

Here is what the Holy Spirit is doing.

I put some interesting words in bold because it looks like that even those people who do not know about Baptism desire per se can be saved.

**CCC 1260 **
“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

 

[goout]

Original sin is just in the same way it is just that you have the transmission of the faith and all othe good things. We accept the bad with the good.
We are a community. The fall of one is the fall of all, the good of one is the good of all.

 

[grannymh]

It is as if a whole family of people were thrown into jail because of the sin of their father. That might have been just under very ancient law systems, but how could it be that an ALL JUST and ALL MERCIFUL God puts this guilt on all of us. I can see how our human nature could be corrupted, and that corruption passed down, but according to justice, one cannot be guilty for a sin one didn’t commit.

Quickly.
There is no need for the idea that “our human nature could be corrupted.”

The Catholic Church teaches that human nature has **not **been totally corrupted. (CCC 405)

This basic Catholic teaching (wounded not corrupted) is God’s first merciful gift to Adam and subsequently to his human descendants. It is a huge gift considering that Adam attempted to become an equal supreme primary god by ignoring the insurmountable limits of his creaturely status. (CCC 396; CCC 1730-1732; CCC 413-421; Genesis 1: 27)

God’s second merciful gift to Adam and subsequently to his human descendants is the tremendous gift of the Incarnation. Genesis 3: 15 is considered as God’s merciful promise. (CCC 410-411)

God’s third merciful gift to Adam and subsequently to his human descendants is that the real original friendship relationship between all of humanity and Divinity is restored by the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. “Where, O death, is your victory?” (1 Corinthians 15: 51-55)

These three gifts are proof that God is extremely merciful to the sinner Adam and subsequently to his human descendants.