How is praying to the saints not necromancy?

[ReturningToRome]

Reference Deut. 18:11 and the story of Saul calling on Samuel (1Samuel 28:15). Thanks for your insights.

 

[Salvatore123]

Very simple: Necromancy is practiced by what we would call “witch doctors” or “satanists” where the practitioner tries to summon the spirit of a deceased person, either as an apparition or ghost, or to raise them bodily, for the purpose of trying to gain insight or prophesy the future.

I don’t know of any prayer to a saint that comes close to doing what the above suggests.

 

[NHInsider]

Prayer to saints is exactly the same thing as asking our fellow Christians to pray for us - especially seeking out particularly devout or holy people, those sometimes called Prayer Warriors, etc. We ask others to pray with us and for us, and because we believe that for those who are members of His Body, death does not separate us, we continue to ask for their prayers after they have passed into eternity and into His Presence.

Necromancy is summoning the spirits of the dead for the purpose of trying to obtain knowledge that is beyond us, or influencing events by some (presumed) supernatural power.

 

[NeedImprovement]

The definition of necromancy rendered in Father John Hardon S.J.'s Modern Catholic Dictionary is saying the same thing as Salvatore123’s and NHInsider’s posts above. We can compare it to his definition of the Communion of Saints.

NECROMANCY.
The art of divining the future through alleged communication with the dead. It was mentioned in the Bible and found in every ancient nation. It was forbidden by Mosaic law in any form, whether as alchemy, magic, or witchcraft. It is also forbidden by the Church. One reason is that the practice lends itself to dependence on the evil spirits who can pretend to foretell the future, but only to deceive and mislead the practitioners. In modern times it is called spiritism or spiritualism. (Etym. Greek nekros, corpse + manteia, divination; Latin necromantia.)

COMMUNION OF SAINTS.
The unity and co-operation of the members of the Church on earth with those in heaven and in purgatory. They are united as being one Mystical Body of Christ. The faithful on earth are in communion with each other by professing the same faith, obeying the same authority, and assisting each other with their prayers and good works. They are in communion with the saints in heaven by honoring them as glorified members of the Church, invoking their prayers and aid, and striving to imitate their virtues. They are in communion with the souls in purgatory by helping them with their prayers and good works.

Another interesting fact found in article 2156 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church is that for those of us who are given a Saint’s name at Baptism, we are guaranteed of that particular Saint’s intercession:

CCC 2156

The sacrament of Baptism is conferred “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” In Baptism, the Lord’s name sanctifies man, and the Christian receives his name in the Church. This can be the name of a saint, that is, of a disciple who has lived a life of exemplary fidelity to the Lord. The patron saint provides a model of charity; we are assured of his intercession . (…)



… If invoking the intercession of the Saints were necromancy, we would be committing it every time we celebrated the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

One could also remember that the events in Samuel took place before Christ’s death and resurrection. People at the time of Samuel WERE dead, dead in sin. None of them could go to heaven (It took Christ to open those gates).

However, since the time of Christ, Heaven’s doors are open and those who die are **no longer dead, but living. Living indeed far more than we on earth, united eternally to Christ, forever. How indeed can any saint, by definition, be ‘dead?’ **

 

[RSD]

How is asking a friend to pray for us not the same as slavery?

 

[JackVk]

And St. Paul writes in Romans 8:38 that “neither life nor death can separate us from the love of Christ”. Those in heaven are not dead; they are more alive than we are.

 

[odhiambo]

Necromancy is summoning the spirits of the dead for the purpose of trying to obtain knowledge that is beyond us, or influencing events by some (presumed) supernatural power.

And beware which spirit it is that has been summoned! Very likely the demon disguised as the dead person

 

[Newbie2]

And St. Paul writes in Romans 8:38 that “neither life nor death can separate us from the love of Christ”. Those in heaven are not dead; they are more alive than we are.

Exactomundo. I had my response all prepared and Jack already said it.

 

[EricFilmer]

We are one in the Body of Christ, which includes Christians on earth, Christians in Purgatory and Christians in heaven. Being one body (rather than three separate bodies) we can have fellowship with all our fellow Christians. We do this because of the power of Christ, who is the head of the Church. Christian fellowship includes asking people to pray for us, and it also includes praying on behalf of others. In light of all this, there is no reason why we can’t ask the saints to pray for us, and no reason why they would not heed such requests.

Plus, during the Transfiguration, Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:1-9; Mark 9:2-8; Luke 9:28-36). Obviously, Jesus did was not guilty of necromancy, and neither are we when we speak to the saints in heaven.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Simple answer: Because necromancy is conjuring up the dead to gain information. Since the Saints are NOT dead, and we are not trying to gain any information, we are not practicing necromancy.

I suggest you read an Exposition of the Faith Book IV by John of Damascus Chapter 15 written in the 5th century. It is a response to one of the iconoclast movements happening at the time, and John does a very good job showing from scripture and using common sense to help you understand why it is not only a good thing to pray to and honor the saints, but it is also an insult to God not to do so.

newadvent.org/fathers/33044.htm

The Saints are alive, because that is what Jesus promised us: eternal life, not death. We pray to the saints because we believe in the promises of Christ, and our prayers are a sign of that faith. We ask them to pray for us, because they are with God, and who better to pray for us then those who are in heaven?

 

[Mintaka]

Even in the Old Testament, though, it wasn’t right to think of the patriarchs as dead.

“I AM the god of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob” went right along with “I AM the god of the living, not of the dead.”

And there’s Chapter 3 of the good ol’ Book of Wisdom:

“But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and the torment of death shall not touch them. In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure was taken for misery, and their going away from us for utter destruction: but they are in peace. And though in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality. Afflicted in a few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God hath tried them, and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace he hath proved them, and as a victim of a holocaust he hath received them, and in time there shall be respect had to them. The just shall shine, and shall run to and fro like sparks among the reeds. They shall judge nations, and rule over people, and their Lord shall reign for ever. They that trust in him, shall understand the truth: and they that are faithful in love shall rest in him: for grace and peace is to his elect.”

 

[TimothyH]

And St. Paul writes in Romans 8:38 that “neither life nor death can separate us from the love of Christ”. Those in heaven are not dead; they are more alive than we are.

That’s a great verse in this context. I had not though of that nor read the verse in that context. Thanks!

-Tim-

 

[Edward_H]

They’re not dead. They are alive in the Body of Christ. Death doesn’t separate members of the Body of Christ.

 

[Me1234]

We are not conjuring them up by voodoo or something. It’s simply like asking anyone on earth to pray for you. You say that they intervene with god for you by way their their own prayer for us. Saints in heaven are just and full of faith so god is more likely to grant their prayers than the average human on earth who isn’t as good.

This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

In Psalms 103, we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2). If that is not praying to those in heaven what is?

catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

 

[ReturningToRome]

I suggest you read an Exposition of the Faith Book IV by John of Damascus Chapter 15 written in the 5th century. It is a response to one of the iconoclast movements happening at the time, and John does a very good job showing from scripture and using common sense to help you understand why it is not only a good thing to pray to and honor the saints, but it is also an insult to God not to do so.

newadvent.org/fathers/33044.htm

/QUOTE]

Thank you for this reference. It seems to me he goes too far when he instructs to “worship” the saints. How can I understand and explain that?

 

[NHInsider]

JonathonofOhio;7953258:

I suggest you read an Exposition of the Faith Book IV by John of Damascus Chapter 15 written in the 5th century. It is a response to one of the iconoclast movements happening at the time, and John does a very good job showing from scripture and using common sense to help you understand why it is not only a good thing to pray to and honor the saints, but it is also an insult to God not to do so.

newadvent.org/fathers/33044.htm

/QUOTE]

Thank you for this reference. It seems to me he goes too far when he instructs to “worship” the saints. How can I understand and explain that?

I think it’s due to a shift in the meaning of the word in English. It used to have a usage that represented high regard or respect without implying that the person was divine or supreme (indeed, without any religious meaning at all). In some places the term “your worship” is still the correct form of address for mayors. . . .

 

[codeyrolley]

Necromancy was not a concept I thought people would have been thinking about until around the Elizabethan era.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Thank you for this reference. It seems to me he goes too far when he instructs to “worship” the saints. How can I understand and explain that?

think it’s due to a shift in the meaning of the word in English. It used to have a usage that represented high regard or respect without implying that the person was divine or supreme (indeed, without any religious meaning at all). In some places the term “your worship” is still the correct form of address for mayors. . . .

It does have to do with that. It took me a few times of reading it to fully understand it, but John does explain what he means so there is no misunderstanding:

Now I mean gods and kings and lords not in nature, but as rulers and masters of their passions, and as preserving a truthful likeness to the divine image according to which they were made

We do not worship them as gods in nature (because there is only one God), but we worship them in the sense that they are like royalty, people to look up to, and people to honor. By honoring them in such a way we glorify God, much in the same way that when the Hebrews knelt before the Arc of the Covenant and worshiped; they were not worshiping the materials, but they were worshiping and glorifying God.

You see, the Hebrews had the Arc of the Covenant and various other things that God told them to make, and he blessed them, and honored them because they were sacred. They built their temple of stone and they had the Word of God written on stone (the 10 Commandments). We have living people who are temples of God, and the Word of God came in the flesh, and showed us that we can be like Him and be alive in heaven with Him. So if it was right and good to kneel and pray before things that were not alive, then all the better for us to kneel and pray before those who are living temples of God.

 

[EricFilmer]

Thank you for this reference. It seems to me he goes too far when he instructs to “worship” the saints. How can I understand and explain that?

According to the Bible we are called to honor God (for example, the first three of the Ten Commandments) as well as one another (for example, 1Peter 2:17).

The specific kind of honor we give God is not the same kind of honor we give to humans. This distinction is made in Greek because two different words are utilized (latria for the honor given to God and dulia for the honor given to humans, and there is a category within dulia called hyper-dulia meaning a special kind of honor given to Mary).

Traditionally such a distinction was not made in English. The words “honor” and “worship” were originally interchangeable, and the context told you if it referred to God or humans. As proof of this, consider the fact that in American English a judge is called, “Your honor” while in Britain a judge (i.e., magistrate) is called “Your worship.”

At some point in the early 20th Century there was a desire to give English the kind of distinction that is found in Greek. Therefore, a gradual trend happened in which one saw the term “worship” being used exclusively for God (or other divine persons in the case of other religions). Therefore, when you see Catholic literature or hymnals referring to the “worship” of the saints or Mary, check the publication date and you will inevitably discover that it is about 100 years old or older. In other words, it was published at a time when the words “worship” and “honor” were considered interchangeable.

Such books that continued to be published later in the 20th and 21st Century will probably have been edited to replace the word “worship” with “honor” (when applied to Mary and the saints) to reflect the new trend in the English language to restrict the term “worship” to the concept of the honoring of divinity.