How is prophesy possible. Critique my thinking

[nguirado]

For my share of the evangelical effort, I represent Catholics on other forums. One guy said that prophesy was impossible because time only goes one way. I replied:

This is a good observation on your part, thoughtfully presented. You’re right that time flows in one direction, to the best of our knowledge (some physicists theorize that with wormholes and whatnot, it’s possible- Hawking said something interesting about this when he said that we know time travel backward is impossible because nobody from the future has visited us). However, given God’s characteristics, you can see that this principle need not be violated for prophesy to be possible.

1. You know that given enough information and enough processing of that information, there is nothing natural that’s unpredictable (computer programs designed specifically for randomness may not fall into this category). So, God, having designed everything knows how everything works (this volcano will erupt at this time, this person will react this way to this, this person will have this many children). It’s like psychology, physics, sociology, etc. to the maximum degree. He can then communicate this somehow.

1. Or, you can look at God as the programmer of a computer game. He knows how the story unfolds because he programmed it. This one is a little more Calvinist than the first one, which allows for free will.

1. God was “before” time and exists outside of time. Concepts like future or past may not apply.

Does that make sense?

 

[Inquiringperson]

I like it. I think it does make sense, but I’m a biased critic right now as I believe that prophesies are possible. Try sending your reply to those not believing in prophesies.

 

[Scoobyshme]

Oh. I thought you were talking about biblical prophesy, which is an entirely different concept.

 

[Scoobyshme]

For my share of the evangelical effort, I represent Catholics on other forums. One guy said that prophesy was impossible because time only goes one way. I replied:

Does that make sense?

Okay, assuming you mean “prophesy” in the sense of “foretelling the future”…

Consider this…

Only we humans live in time. Only we live “from moment to moment.” God does not live “moment to moment.” God is simultaneously in the past, present, and future, all at once. He does not “foresee” the future, but “sees” the future as you and I see the present moment.

So, if God so deems, He could certainly give us a peek at what He’s seeing, even if it is in what we consider to be the future.

 

[nguirado]

Thanks.

 

[Katholish]

1. You know that given enough information and enough processing of that information, there is nothing natural that’s unpredictable (computer programs designed specifically for randomness may not fall into this category). So, God, having designed everything knows how everything works (this volcano will erupt at this time, this person will react this way to this, this person will have this many children). It’s like psychology, physics, sociology, etc. to the maximum degree. He can then communicate this somehow.

I would suggest not using this as it is actually not true. The freedom of the human will is not determinable through other causes, and while we can be correct most of the time we try to predict someone’s decisions, we cannot be right all of the time no matter how much data we have because the will is free. The view you present above is a determinist view which ultimately denys the true freedom of the human will.

The way to answer the question is the fact that God is outside of time, and hence concepts of past and future apply to us, but not to Him, for Whom all things are an eternal present.

 

[nguirado]

I would suggest not using this as it is actually not true. The freedom of the human will is not determinable through other causes, and while we can be correct most of the time we try to predict someone’s decisions, we cannot be right all of the time no matter how much data we have because the will is free. The view you present above is a determinist view which ultimately denys the true freedom of the human will.

The way to answer the question is the fact that God is outside of time, and hence concepts of past and future apply to us, but not to Him, for Whom all things are an eternal present.

I used it to demonstrate how one can intellectualize how God can tell the future. I was basing it on my understanding of chaos theory.

I see your point. I’m still working on it.

 

[greylorn]

For my share of the evangelical effort, I represent Catholics on other forums. One guy said that prophesy was impossible because time only goes one way. I replied:
Does that make sense?

IMO none of the arguments are valid. No point in arguing them specifically in the context of evidence which is available.

Specifically, there is considerable evidence presented in the paranormal literature, and much more which is merely anecdotal, that humans can indeed predict the future. Dean Radin has at least one book which presents a scientifically credible example set, but the paranormal literature is much more fun. Many individuals, like myself, have had serious precognitive experiences.

The evidence must be explained. Best I’ve found for it was an article in Science magazine from back in 1969, summertime as I recall. It was a mathematical analysis of relativistic time dilation which did an interesting “what if…”

What if imaginary solutions (those which included the square root of -1) to relativistic equations were meaningful? (As any specialist in electromagnetic energy transmission knows, most of the formulas which describe the propagation of information in the form of radio waves through space include this mysterious term in their exponents.)

The author of the Science article interpreted such relativistic equations as meaning that information traveling faster than lightspeed would travel backwards in time, i.e. into the past.

From this I concluded that precognitive information which individuals may perceive, had been transmitted from the future by another mind, or more likely, by a large number of minds.

If this is the case, precognitive information is paradoxical. We perceive it in real time, but it is transmitted from the future. How this happens is a mystery, but IMO it tells us that we do not understand the core nature of time.

 

[Luke_K]

The evidence must be explained. Best I’ve found for it was an article in Science magazine from back in 1969, summertime as I recall. It was a mathematical analysis of relativistic time dilation which did an interesting “what if…”

What if imaginary solutions (those which included the square root of -1) to relativistic equations were meaningful? (As any specialist in electromagnetic energy transmission knows, most of the formulas which describe the propagation of information in the form of radio waves through space include this mysterious term in their exponents.)

The author of the Science article interpreted such relativistic equations as meaning that information traveling faster than lightspeed would travel backwards in time, i.e. into the past.

From this I concluded that precognitive information which individuals may perceive, had been transmitted from the future by another mind, or more likely, by a large number of minds.

If this is the case, precognitive information is paradoxical. We perceive it in real time, but it is transmitted from the future. How this happens is a mystery, but IMO it tells us that we do not understand the core nature of time.

Haha I’ve wondered that myself (about the results of our equations that we discard). What significance does the complex plane in our mathematical constructs have in reality? Euler’s formula goes so deep into the nature of reality, I love it.

 

[greylorn]

Haha I’ve wondered that myself (about the results of our equations that we discard). What significance does the complex plane in our mathematical constructs have in reality? Euler’s formula goes so deep into the nature of reality, I love it.

Your wonderings are in the right direction. In addition to the formulas for electromagnetic radiation, the complex plane (which I’m inclined to treat as a dimension) appears in the Schroedinger wave equation.

When you figure out the core meaning of Euler’s equation, or, “why does this work,” I want to be the first to know. And thanks for bringing up the subject. Long ago, I’d dropped out the idea of ever understanding it. I shall try again. Any insights you care to share are welcome.