How is saying an Atheist can get to Heaven NOT works righteousness?

[Link0126]

I can see saying people of other religions can get to heaven b/c they may be following their understanding of God, have faith in their version of God etc., and seek to act in charity for the sake of their understanding of God and b/c of their Faith. Faith, which is of course, part of the equation for salvation, namely, Grace though Faith working in Love.

However, how can an Atheist who denies the existence of God, who has no faith in God, exhibit a faith that works through love? This seems to be the very definition of works righteousness.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

…[H]ow can an Atheist who denies the existence of God, who has no faith in God, exhibit a faith that works through love? This seems to be the very definition of works righteousness.

This is what Lumen Gentium has to say about the issue:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention. [Lumen Gentium, par. 16 - emphasis added]

None of us know what resides in the heart of a self-proclaimed atheist. It could be that they are still sincerely seeking God, are moved by His grace, and do indeed strive to do God’s will to the extent that it is made known to them through the dictates of their conscience. But it could also be the case that a self-proclaimed atheist has become deceived, or deceived himself (or herself) to exchange truth for a lie. We - on the outside of these persons - cannot judge their soul. We leave that to God. But in either event, it’s not a form of “works righteousness.” In the case of the “saved atheist” it must still be that response to God’s grace which at its heart is faith. That faith is God’s gift, it is exercised, and then God does the rest. The atheist is not saved because his or her works were “good enough” to merit heaven. The “saved atheist” is saved because he or she is responding to God’s grace, even though the Giver is not known or understood.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Barbkw]

Grace of God, faith and works.

The cupability of each person plays a part:

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm

THE FIRST COMMANDMENT

III. “YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME”

Atheism

2123 "Many . . . of our contemporaries either do not at all perceive, or explicitly reject, this intimate and vital bond of man to God. Atheism must therefore be regarded as one of the most serious problems of our time."58

2124 The name “atheism” covers many very different phenomena. One common form is the practical materialism which restricts its needs and aspirations to space and time.

Atheistic humanism falsely considers man to be "an end to himself, and the sole maker, with supreme control, of his own history."59

Another form of contemporary atheism looks for the liberation of man through economic and social liberation.

"It holds that religion, of its very nature, thwarts such emancipation by raising man’s hopes in a future life, thus both deceiving him and discouraging him from working for a better form of life on earth."60

2125 Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion.61

**The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. **

**"Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion."62 **

2126 Atheism is often based on a false conception of human autonomy, exaggerated to the point of refusing any dependence on God.63

Yet, "to acknowledge God is in no way to oppose the dignity of man, since such dignity is grounded and brought to perfection in God. . . . "64 "For the Church knows full well that her message is in harmony with the most secret desires of the human heart."65

 

[Barbkw]

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm

SECTION ONE MAN’S VOCATION LIFE IN THE SPIRIT

CHAPTER ONE THE DIGNITY OF THE HUMAN PERSON

ARTICLE 8

SIN
I. MERCY AND SIN
IV. THE GRAVITY OF SIN: MORTAL AND VENIAL SIN

1857 For a sin to be mortal, **three conditions **must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

 

[Julia_Mae]

However, how can an Atheist who denies the existence of God, who has no faith in God, exhibit a faith that works through love? This seems to be the very definition of works righteousness.

I’ve been talking to people who define themselves as atheists online for close to twenty years. Some of them are just smug smart-aleks who like to think they are superior and are bigoted and nasty. Some are mad at God and this is how they express it. Some of them, only a few, have seemed to me to be really in the throws of evil.

But what I also find is that they are often people who don’t believe in the god they have been presented with: an Old Guy in the Sky who would send you to eternal torment for breaking some rule. They reject this idea of God. That is, they refuse to accept a flawed and limited human viewpoint. They are rejecting not God, but people’s versions of that. They are often people seeking love, justice, compassion and joy. That is: they love and seek God.

They don’t like hearing that because it offends the purity of their vision of themselves, but then, they are always happily surprised when they pass.

Jesus said not everyone who says Lord, Lord will see the Kingdom. Just because we define ourselves as Christian doesn’t mean we are. And in the same way, just because someone defines themselves as something else, even an atheist, doesn’t mean they are not following Jesus way better than I am. If they convert, their lives here will improve and their ability to increase justice and love and joy will be exponentially greater.

Jesus judges us on how well we follow Him, even if we don’t know that’s what we are doing.

 

[PJM]

=Link0126;8787157]I can see saying people of other religions can get to heaven b/c they may be following their understanding of God, have faith in their version of God etc., and seek to act in charity for the sake of their understanding of God and b/c of their Faith. Faith, which is of course, part of the equation for salvation, namely, Grace though Faith working in Love.

However, how can an Atheist who denies the existence of God, who has no faith in God, exhibit a faith that works through love? This seems to be the very definition of works righteousness.

DENIAL OF GOD IS THE ONE UNFORGIVABLE SIN. THESE WILL GO TO HELL

Matt.12: 31-32 " Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come"

God Bless,
Pat.

 

[Jocko_VT]

But what I also find is that they are often people who don’t believe in the god they have been presented with: an Old Guy in the Sky who would send you to eternal torment for breaking some rule. They reject this idea of God. That is, they refuse to accept a flawed and limited human viewpoint. They are rejecting not God, but people’s versions of that. They are often people seeking love, justice, compassion and joy. That is: they love and seek God.
.

Very well said.

The late Jesuit theologian Karl Rahner referred to these folks as “anonymous theists.”

When I read the Catechism, and Thomas Merton, for example, I see a God so mysterious that it makes everything I hear most people say about God seem painfully presumptuous and meaningless–perhaps even disrespectful to God. Alas, I had to stumble upon the Catechism’s description of God, and I had to just stumble upon Thomas Merton’s writings, to see this.

This is one of the points that make me think most atheists and Catholics (not all Christians) are not all that far apart.

 

[Julia_Mae]

This is one of the points that make me think most atheists and Catholics (not all Christians) are not all that far apart.

Whatever divides us is of not-God.

May the Great Source of all Light and Life Bless you.

 

[rinnie]

I can see saying people of other religions can get to heaven b/c they may be following their understanding of God, have faith in their version of God etc., and seek to act in charity for the sake of their understanding of God and b/c of their Faith. Faith, which is of course, part of the equation for salvation, namely, Grace though Faith working in Love.

However, how can an Atheist who denies the existence of God, who has no faith in God, exhibit a faith that works through love? This seems to be the very definition of works righteousness.

No one knows the true mind of an Atheist or of our dear and merciful God.

I was told that you have until you take your last breath in this world to accept God.

This is a true story. My Mother’s uncle never believed in God. My Mother said on his death bed he opened his eye look straight up and cried OH MY GOD!! and then took his last breath.

I don’t know everything but I do know ONE thing, you can never understand the Love of God and his compassion, it is beyond human understanding. And God wants no one to burn in eternal fire. So God will sort it out!

Many people deny God for many reasons. Some are taught this from birth. So if you were taught this from someone you loved what would you think. All I am saying is until we walk in others shoes we can’t say. We are just lucky we were blessed with people in our lives to teach us about God.

And another thing, think what a hard and horrible struggle it would be to not have the security and love of Christ in your life as you carry your cross of life.

 

[PJM]

=Jocko_VT;8787758]Very well said.

The late Jesuit theologian Karl Rahner referred to these folks as “anonymous theists.”

When I read the Catechism, and Thomas Merton, for example, I see a God so mysterious that it makes everything I hear most people say about God seem painfully presumptuous and meaningless–perhaps even disrespectful to God. Alas, I had to stumble upon the Catechism’s description of God, and I had to just stumble upon Thomas Merton’s writings, to see this.

This is one of the points that make me think most atheists and Catholics (not all Christians) are not all that far apart.

:tsktsk:***UMMMMMM; If memory seves Rahner is an Heritic.

Because God to BE GOD MUST be fair and just; God MUST offer to every0one sufficient grace to KNOW HIM.

Thus Denial of GOD [except in those very rare cases] where the Good news has not yet reached; are dooming themself to Hell. AMEN!***

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Jocko_VT]

:tsktsk:UMMMMMM; If memory seves Rahner is an Heritic.

Ha. Is he? From what little I’ve read from him (very, very little), I’m not terribly surprised. And to think, many many theologian were trained by Rahner, I think! But, is the “anonymous theist” idea heretical? That’s what counts. I don’t see why it would be.
PJM;8790667:

Because God to BE GOD MUST be fair and just; God MUST offer to every0one sufficient grace to KNOW HIM.

Thus Denial of GOD [except in those very rare cases] where the Good news has not yet reached; are dooming themself to Hell. AMEN!

But, isn’t God by any other name (or no name at all) still God? And, if the “anonymous theist” is, like myself, denying a god that is not God, then he isn’t denying God. This is Rahner’s whole point, from what I could tell.

For example, I deny the god of the Westboro Baptist Church. I don’t believe in a god who dictates to its adherents that they should carry around signs that say “God hates Fags,” or “Thank God for dead soldiers.” Similarly, I deny the old-man-in-the-sky god, who lives on the clouds and looks just like Michelangelo’s image in the Sistine Chapel. In denying these gods, I’m not actually denying God. Having been brought up in an area of the country where these were the typical images of god, and having never heard of the God of Catholicism (Catholicism, yes, but not their God, as described in the Catechism and by others, like Thomas Merton), the only notion of God, as such, was that which I deny.

 

[juan_e_flores]

Atheists do not enter into gods grace why because they are sinners all sinners need a savior.In psalm 89:26 god is called FATHER,ROCK,SAVIOR AND GOD but if you are a atheist GOD do’s not rule in youre life so you will die in your sins and trespasses. It is very clear in the bible John 3:16 says you have to believe to inherit eternal life.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I can see saying people of other religions can get to heaven b/c they may be following their understanding of God, have faith in their version of God etc., and seek to act in charity for the sake of their understanding of God and b/c of their Faith. Faith, which is of course, part of the equation for salvation, namely, Grace though Faith working in Love.

However, how can an Atheist who denies the existence of God, who has no faith in God, exhibit a faith that works through love? This seems to be the very definition of works righteousness.

Their works and our prayers as well. We pray for other people while their alive, and we pray for them when they are dead. When we pray for the dead we help them get into heaven. Its not far off that we have helped some atheists over the course of time into heaven through our prayers for their souls.

 

[Jocko_VT]

Atheists do not enter into gods grace why because they are sinners all sinners need a savior.In psalm 89:26 god is called FATHER,ROCK,SAVIOR AND GOD but if you are a atheist GOD do’s not rule in youre life so you will die in your sins and trespasses. It is very clear in the bible John 3:16 says you have to believe to inherit eternal life.

This would lead to the conclusion that only Christians go to heaven. This is against church teaching, I believe.