C
Colorad007
Guest
Are there a lot of young people at Mass? Is there growth and renewal? Are things as challenging in France as the media suggest?
- Status
C
Chatter163
Guest
In France, the answer is no. Outside of traditionalist circles, percentage of French attending Mass is abysmally low. They are contracepting themselves out of existence.
M
Mike30
Guest
Most sources agree that not only in France but all of western Europe the Church is not faring well at all with Mass attendances way under 30%. From the Pew Research Center
In France, Germany and Spain, where multiple Pew Research surveys have asked respondents how often they attend church, few Catholics report going to Mass on a weekly basis. In four surveys conducted between 2009 and 2011, no more than 10% of French Catholics said they attend Mass at least weekly. By comparison, between 24% and 31% of Spanish Catholics have said they attend church at least once a week in polls conducted between 2009 and 2011.2 Among Catholics in Germany, roughly one-in-five said they go to Mass on a weekly basis in 2009 and 2010. In Pew Research polling in 2011, a slightly lower proportion of German Catholics (16%) reported attending Mass at least once a week.
There has been no notable appreciable growth in most Western European countries since Pope Benedict XVI started his new evangelization program in 2005. But Mass attendance has stabilized in most countries.
Mexico and Latin America as a whole are in a somewhat different situation. From the Council on Foreign Relations
The picture in Brazil and Mexico, the world’s two largest Catholic nations, tells a thousand words. According to Brazil’s 2010 census, 65 percent of the population is Catholic, down from over 90 percent in 1970. Similarly, between 2000 and 2010, the percentage of Mexicans that identify as Catholic dropped from 88 to less than 83 – the largest fall recorded to date. If these trends persist, by 2025 about 50 percent of all Latin Americans will be Catholic, down from approximately 70 percent today. Just as the number of Catholics is down so is Mass attendance down across the board. Remember also, that many Mexicans and other Latin Americans who identify themselves as Catholic are actually members of numerous different semi Catholic cults such as Santissma Muerte and Princessa Anastacia as well as numerous others, who are in reaslity Catholic in name only.
Protestants are making great headway in Mexico and other Latin American countries and have been doing so for many many years and are probably the single biggest threat to Catholicism in Latin America…
So overall, I would say that not a whole lot of renewal and/or growth has happened as yet but who knows what the future holds.
In France, Germany and Spain, where multiple Pew Research surveys have asked respondents how often they attend church, few Catholics report going to Mass on a weekly basis. In four surveys conducted between 2009 and 2011, no more than 10% of French Catholics said they attend Mass at least weekly. By comparison, between 24% and 31% of Spanish Catholics have said they attend church at least once a week in polls conducted between 2009 and 2011.2 Among Catholics in Germany, roughly one-in-five said they go to Mass on a weekly basis in 2009 and 2010. In Pew Research polling in 2011, a slightly lower proportion of German Catholics (16%) reported attending Mass at least once a week.
There has been no notable appreciable growth in most Western European countries since Pope Benedict XVI started his new evangelization program in 2005. But Mass attendance has stabilized in most countries.
Mexico and Latin America as a whole are in a somewhat different situation. From the Council on Foreign Relations
The picture in Brazil and Mexico, the world’s two largest Catholic nations, tells a thousand words. According to Brazil’s 2010 census, 65 percent of the population is Catholic, down from over 90 percent in 1970. Similarly, between 2000 and 2010, the percentage of Mexicans that identify as Catholic dropped from 88 to less than 83 – the largest fall recorded to date. If these trends persist, by 2025 about 50 percent of all Latin Americans will be Catholic, down from approximately 70 percent today. Just as the number of Catholics is down so is Mass attendance down across the board. Remember also, that many Mexicans and other Latin Americans who identify themselves as Catholic are actually members of numerous different semi Catholic cults such as Santissma Muerte and Princessa Anastacia as well as numerous others, who are in reaslity Catholic in name only.
Protestants are making great headway in Mexico and other Latin American countries and have been doing so for many many years and are probably the single biggest threat to Catholicism in Latin America…
So overall, I would say that not a whole lot of renewal and/or growth has happened as yet but who knows what the future holds.
M
Mumbles140
Guest
From my understanding (or at least what I’ve heard others discuss), isn’t there a strengthening of the traditionalists in France?
A
angell1
Guest
i guess this isn’t too surprising, the bible does say there will be a great falling away
O
OraLabora
Guest
There are signs of hope in France, a couple of monasteries with thriving vocations.
So I’m not yet ready to give up on my French brethren.
So I’m not yet ready to give up on my French brethren.
P
ProVobis
Guest
Seems to parallel the Church in the U.S. as well.
J
janeway529
Guest
I wonder, is there a thriving Catholic Charismatic movement in France, or ecclesial movements within France in general?
M
Mike30
Guest
I would anticipate that trend will continue.
A
adawgj
Guest
Maybe it’s time to evangelize.
G
gus
Guest
South and Central America have been the target of thousands of Protestant missionaries backed by millions of mostly US dollars.
If you read the surprised by the truth books one of the conversion stories was from one of these missionaries.
She and her husband converted to Catholism because the the theological chaos caused by 100’s of competing Protantant ideas unleashed on a largely unsophisticated and poor population. Each claiming theirs as the difinitive biblical meaning. Just imagine the confusion.
The problem for the church is in Mexico is the small number of priests. Remember is was only 70 or 80 years ago were the anti-Catholic government almost succeeded in wiping out all the priests in Mexico. Something the Church has not recovered from.
M
Mike30
Guest
Why do you think so many Catholics turn to protestant groups?
It is because protestants actively, routinely and incessantly proselytize. You know why? It works…
C
clem456
Guest
I disagree with this.
I know many ex-Catholics who attend mostly non-denom Evangelical Churches. My high school graduating class perhaps 10% are still Catholic. It’s interesting that they do not go to mainline established Protestant Churches, but non-denoms. They are not preached to or proselytized. They go because their friend said it was great, or because they are looking for a place to fit in, or because they saw the churchpeople working on a roof at the homeless shelter etc…
DISCLAIMER: I am not advocating the Catholic Church become less Catholic, I am just making observations…
What these churches do very well is welcome people and make the church relevant in their lives. A person can arrive at church, have their car parked for them, have the door opened, be greeted by friendly people, and participate fully in the service right away. They are part of the community. They have family activities, bible study groups, service projects, music that people can relate to, their is a large social aspect, gatherings for coffee etc… The sermon is aimed at touching their lives in a practical way, working in theological elements but doing it practically.
We can do some of these things much better in our parishes. However, Catholicism is difficult. Modern people do not like difficult things, we want it easy. Many people just want to feel good, get ahead in life, want to feel welcome somewhere. Doing a better job at outreach will help us, but people’s hearts have been dulled by the culture, and unfortunately comfort and apathy are the enemy of conversion. We are an apathetic and comfortable people (myself included), and Catholicism is not compatible with that lifestyle (nor should it be).
M
Marie5890
Guest
I agree with you. They also have a more welcoming of all people without those people feeling burdened by theology. (ie confession, annulments for divorced people or no communion for you, contraception, open to gays, etc)
Sometimes Catholic theology can turn people off, and they turn away and go to a place they feel fully welcomed and not marginalized
C
clem456
Guest
It is a tragedy that Catholic theology should turn people off. It can only be by ignorance and misunderstanding because we know the message is life itself. How can the message of Catholicism be so poorly expressed and/or misunderstood, that people are turned off by it? Both the bearers of the message and the hearers are responsible. Pope Francis is doing a great job of exhorting the bearers of the Gospel.
M
Mike30
Guest
While that may be true in developed countries such as the US, it most definitely is not true in places like Mexico and other countries in Latin America. There the conversions are mostly to one fundamentalist sect or another, mainly Baptist and some of the more aggressive proselytizers, Jehovah’s Witness, 7th Day Adventist and Mormons,
M
Marie5890
Guest
I agree. He is showing by how he lives his life and ministry it’s about how you are treating others, regardless of where they are in their lives in terms of holiness, that is paramount.
He doesnt judge others. He serves them. He lets God do the judging, as it should be.
J
janeway529
Guest
The difference with the US and their counterparts in Mexico and Latin America is the level of education in the faith as well as the culture. The lifestyles are drastically different. Clericalism is very much alive in those countries where clergy are often become idols – priests are often offered the best food and drink, governments give bishops luxury cars, and bishops have their own armed bodyguards, just to name a few examples. When a typical person living in poverty sees this while said priests and bishops “advocate” for the poor, how much more convincing will the Protestant who is running the homeless shelter or building homes be, who lives what they preach?
The other secret is that sense of welcome. How many of us constantly invite people to Mass and help explain it to them, much less gather in homes to share a meal and discuss religion or for the rosary or another such devotion?
From my own experience of growing up in a family that was actively part of a Divine Mercy apostolate, I can tell you that the sense of community really helped me in not only staying Catholic, but gave me a greater sense of appreciation and pushed me to learn more about my faith.
C
Colorad007
Guest
That’s absurd. The kind of “anything goes” Christianity you describe is that of the mainline Protestant sects, and their numbers are cratering. Evangelical churches are, if anything, more committed to traditional Christian morality than your average suburban parish in America. If Evangelical churches are more welcoming, it is because they want the whole world to know Christ’s saving power. How many Catholics do you know like that? Not enough! Or else the world would be on fire for the faith.
Ironically, one of the areas where evangelicals are most wrong is with regards to divorce and contraception. The caved to the culture in the 60s and their communities have paid the price. Maybe that’s why now there is such a strong current in evangelicalism away from an allowance if those things.
C
Contarini
Guest
To some extent, in some contexts, with some people.
It also turns a lot of people off.
I don’t think it’s just proselytization. Evangelical churches preach the Gospel: they tell people that they are sinners and Jesus died for them.
As a general rule, liberal Catholics tell people that they are just fine, and conservative Catholics tell people that God has established lots of elaborate rules which they need to keep in order to go to heaven. Neither of these messages is the Gospel.
Note: I am deliberately painting with a very broad brush, and I am not denying that Catholics preach the Gospel. All the Popes of my adult lifetime have preached the Gospel very well, and they aren’t alone. I’m just describing the broad impression one gets.
Edwin
- Status