How is the LDS a cult?

[twopekinguys]

We weren’t talking about “automatic persecution card” or who is an ex-Latter-day Saint, and whether they know what they were taught and experienced, or the behavior of people on this very site, yet you deemed it okay to bring that up, correct?

It appears you have difficulty following things. Neuro has demonstrated typical mormon behavior on here, and I, as well as others are simply pointing that out.

1. Bumping the question which was obviously ignored.
2. Pulling the persecution card because you don’t like the answer someone has given.

There are other behaviors which will come out soon enough, and those will be pointed out as well.

Also, pointing out that people are exmormon is relevant to the conversation, especially when someone is saying we are telling them what they believe. Which is another tactic we see all too often.

So, as you can see, my post was relevant, and your premise falls miserably short.

Clearly I referenced other sites to demonstrate that what you are attempting to argue as a negative is done by members of your own faith on forums where they are not, essentially, on their “home turf”.

This site cannot control the actions of another, and therefore, whatever they do is up to them. If you don’t like it, take it up with them. That shouldn’t have to be explained.

Please demonstrate that my observation is a “non-sequitor” (sic). My point was that your posts that I was referencing are merely poisoning the well, and that the behavior that you decry is demonstrated by people of all faiths on forums where they are, essentially, on the defense, including Catholics on forums like CARM. It is a perfectly natural and logical response to those ex-[insert religion] that attempt to present themselves as experts, many times over actual members of [insert religion] (note that this is not referring to all ex-[insert any religion]).

Again, what happens on another site has no bearing here.

You’re using the childish notion of “They get to do it.”

Firstly, why would it matter if they went to an Evangelical church? This seems to be moving the goal posts, as well as setting down premises where a response can already be dismissed out of hand. It is not relevant to my argument what church or religion that ex-[insert religion] goes to. What is relevant, and what goes back to the argument you were making, is that there are many ex-Catholics, some even on this forum, that claim that they know what they are talking about, present their credentials (as if done by some ex-Latter-day Saints on this forum), and know what Catholics “really” do and believe, who are then told by the believing Catholics that they shouldn’t be told what they believe when they themselves are practicing and believing Catholics.

It is quite relevant, because it follows a pattern. It was also one example of many. I thought that would be obvious, even to you.

One example on this forum is “Atemi”, who is now banned. He/she posts quite frequently on CARM, and presents himself/herself as an ex-Catholic that “knows” what Catholics really believe, teach, and do, and is therefore, essentially, an “authority”. “Radical” is also another example (most likely of the “never-Catholic”). I also see this numerous times in the Orthodox threads (generally they are “never-Catholic”). Just take a look at any of the current Orthodox related threads on this forum, especially in regards to “original sin”. That should suffice (and I hope that we will not make this thread about individual posters).

Using Radical was not really good idea. I only did a cursory review of his/her posts but didn’t see anything wrong. But then again, you didn’t provide a specific example to support your position.

Your suggestion of Atemi is also weak, because that poster has been banned for over a year, and you didn’t provide a post that supports your position either. Just looking at one thread they participated in, it clearly shows they got busted for pot stirring and twisting things around. Sorry, it really doesn’t help your case.

You seem to be obsessed with CARM, maybe you should exert you efforts there because you don’t seem to be doing any good over here.

 

[twopekinguys]

Anyway, the point, as has already been made, is that just because someone is an ex-[insert religion] doesn’t automatically mean that they are an authority on their former religion, regardless of their credentials, as it seems to be your argument for some of the ex-Latter-day Saints on this forum. People are certainly welcome to share their experiences and beliefs, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that said experiences are the same as others, and NeuroTypical was certainly right to state that he should not be told what he believes by someone else, whether or not that person is an ex member of our Faith. The same goes for ex-Catholics telling Catholics what they believe and practice (as I’ve seen many times over at CARM and other forums, and at times on this one).

I disagree that you have made that point. Unlike you, I will not automatically discount the information provided by a former (insert religion). The information they provide can be much more telling than a current member of the same religion.

We have seen too many times where mormon posters will automatically discount anything said by a former mormon simply because they are former mormons.

Many times, mormons automatically assume something is personal. Nobody here dislikes individual mormons. They do however dislike the mormon religion. There is a big difference.

We have had previous posters (ParkerD) who would never admit the mormons teach their god has flesh and bones, while others, like Fatboy, believes he is an exalted man with a body.

These people (former mormons) know what they were taught, and for anyone to come in here and tell them they weren’t taught that, or they are wrong or lying is abhorrent.

Again, this forum is not CARM, and what flies over there, doesn’t fly here.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca how old were you when you left?

I started questioning Mormon claims in grade school. By the time I was in my late teens I was going along, really ambivalent about it all. By my early 20s I was an atheist.

 

[RebeccaJ]

people believe what they believe. It isn’t up to me to sort it all out, but I’ll be damned if Mormons are going to silent me.

 

[Fatboys]

Those weren’t scare quotes. I can’t in good conscience call your faith organization a church, or your leaders by their self appointed titles. The Latter Day Saint movement is not a church. It is a Cult. My point is, you shouldn’t dismiss the former LDS people on here. Most of us know when you guys are lying, or mis-representing a teaching. You can “say” (that is, type) whatever makes you feel better about yourself. But your so-called church leaders made many false prophecies, wrested the scriptures countless times, and worst, made the the Son of God to be weakling and a liar. This has been shown to you multiple times by many people. If you choose to ignore the truth, that is your right.

Once again we are told we are lying. This is real offensive. You are saying that LDS lie? Are you saying that I am purposely trying to decieve those I teach? How on earth can you sit there in judgement of me.
Tell me why the jews did not recognise the very messiah they had been waiting for? They had the scriptures. The very messiah they has spent hours in prayer, and study, and did not recognise him. Do you think that there are going to be people of religion that will miss the Messiah of the Second coming?

 

[batman1973]

Yes. I am saying the whole So called restored Christianity in all of its various Latter day Saints forms is a lie. as a true believing mormon, I’m sure you’re not openly trying to lie to us. I am truly sorry if you are offended by that but it is the truth. And trust me fatboys when you know the truth, the real truth,_it will truly set you free. It has been my prayers constantlythat all Mormons come to know the true Jesus Christ.

 

[Fatboys]

I started questioning Mormon claims in grade school. By the time I was in my late teens I was going along, really ambivalent about it all. By my early 20s I was an atheist.

I was the same way. I did not go on a mission until I was 22. Before that I did not believe much of anything and become atheist.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I was the same way. I did not go on a mission until I was 22. Before that I did not believe much of anything and become atheist.

Yes, I have a sister who was the same way and is now über Mormon. When she went back to Mormonism I spent a great deal of time trying to figure out why. Read a lot. It only convinced me that I had made the right decision when I left in the first place. I’m not trying to be offensive but honestly, Mormonism gives me the creeps.

 

[Fatboys]

Yes. I am saying the whole So called restored Christianity in all of its various Latter day Saints forms is a lie. as a true believing mormon, I’m sure you’re not openly trying to lie to us. I am truly sorry if you are offended by that but it is the truth. And trust me fatboys when you know the truth, the real truth,_it will truly set you free. It has been my prayers constantlythat all Mormons come to know the true Jesus Christ.

I have asked this question here and never had it answered. How do you know that what you believe is more correct than what I believe? How was this proof manifest to you?

 

[Fatboys]

people believe what they believe. It isn’t up to me to sort it all out, but I’ll be damned if Mormons are going to silent me.

Here is the problem I have. You were in your early twenties when you left. You sid not believe in the church from the time you were in grade school. Did you ever in your brief membership in the church have a spiritual experience?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Here is the problem I have. You were in your early twenties when you left. You sid not believe in the church from the time you were in grade school. Did you ever in your brief membership in the church have a spiritual experience?

Any experiences I had as a Mormon were negative. As an atheist I explained them away as tricks of the mind. Could be they were, I don’t know.

And it wasn’t brief. Good Lord, I was BIC, raised in a very TBM house. I have fond memories from my early childhood. Still have a few Mormon trinkets, like the bracelet with a charm for every article of faith I memorized, and I kept the triple combination that my parents gave me for seminary. It’s all marked up. Still have my journal and book of remembrance.

Just could never believe what Mormons taught me. When I was a kid, I wanted to, but I’m not one to pretend I believe something when I don’t.

 

[batman1973]

I have asked this question here and never had it answered. How do you know that what you believe is more correct than what I believe? How was this proof manifest to you?

By prayer and careful study. But I can tell you that it didn’t come from no burning off the bosom. Once you realize that God cannot lie in the Jesus cannot lie that only leaves Joseph Smith and His progenitors as the liars. Once you realize that the Bible truly is the word of God and you can take it for what it really is you will see that. There are no multiple gods there is no man becoming God, and that there was no apostasy. None of us can convince you of that. You need to have that happened for yourself.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Those weren’t scare quotes. I can’t in good conscience call your faith organization a church, or your leaders by their self appointed titles. The Latter Day Saint movement is not a church. It is a Cult. My point is, you shouldn’t dismiss the former LDS people on here. Most of us know when you guys are lying, or mis-representing a teaching. You can “say” (that is, type) whatever makes you feel better about yourself. But your so-called church leaders made many false prophecies, wrested the scriptures countless times, and worst, made the the Son of God to be weakling and a liar. This has been shown to you multiple times by many people. If you choose to ignore the truth, that is your right.

Thank you for your opinion.

 

[LivingWaters7]

It appears you have difficulty following things. Neuro has demonstrated typical mormon behavior on here, and I, as well as others are simply pointing that out.

1. Bumping the question which was obviously ignored.
2. Pulling the persecution card because you don’t like the answer someone has given.

There are other behaviors which will come out soon enough, and those will be pointed out as well.

Also, pointing out that people are exmormon is relevant to the conversation, especially when someone is saying we are telling them what they believe. Which is another tactic we see all too often.

So, as you can see, my post was relevant, and your premise falls miserably short.

Unfortunately it seems as if you are not able to follow what I am plainly stating. You claimed that my argument was not relevant because we weren’t talking about a specific thing that I brought up. Your comment above is in reference to something that we were not talking about either (and is instead your observation of something), and continues on with things that we were not discussing, correct? Therefore your own posts fall under the same condemnation that you place mine under, unfortunately.

This site cannot control the actions of another, and therefore, whatever they do is up to them. If you don’t like it, take it up with them. That shouldn’t have to be explained.

Obviously it shouldn’t have to be explained, because nowhere in my post did I claim or imply that this site should control the actions of another. I am not sure why you would think I was making that claim, since such an inference cannot be logically drawn from my post.

Again, what happens on another site has no bearing here.

You’re using the childish notion of “They get to do it.”

No, my argument is not “they get to do it”. My argument is that the behavior that you decry is a common behavior amongst human beings.

You also did not demonstrate how my argument was a “non-sequitor” (sic).

It is quite relevant, because it follows a pattern. It was also one example of many. I thought that would be obvious, even to you.

You haven’t explained the relevance. Also, please don’t attempt to talk down to me, with “even to you”, “childish”, etc. As a pharmacy student at the top ranked school of pharmacy, and a cancer researcher, it only amuses me when you try to do that.

Using Radical was not really good idea. I only did a cursory review of his/her posts but didn’t see anything wrong. But then again, you didn’t provide a specific example to support your position.

I am not sure how much of a cursory review you did. Please browse this very recent thread for exactly what I was referring to.

Your suggestion of Atemi is also weak, because that poster has been banned for over a year, and you didn’t provide a post that supports your position either. Just looking at one thread they participated in, it clearly shows they got busted for pot stirring and twisting things around. Sorry, it really doesn’t help your case.

The length of time that person has been banned is not relevant to the argument. Again, a simple browse of the threads started by Atemi shows this thread that demonstrates my argument, as one example of many.

You seem to be obsessed with CARM, maybe you should exert you efforts there because you don’t seem to be doing any good over here.

No, I am not obsessed with CARM. What I have noticed, as someone that used to participate on CARM (and other forums) against Latter-day Saints is that similar tactics are used against Catholics there, by Evangelicals and other non-Catholic Christians, as some tactics used by some non-Latter-day Saints against Latter-day Saints here. It’s also why I don’t get offended by what some are saying about my Faith, since I see exactly the same things stated against other faiths, only with the name of that faith substituted (and many times that faith is Catholicism). Whether it’s “cult”, “brainwashed”, “blindly following”, “deceived”, “come to the real Jesus”, “make believe”, “false”, “irrational”, “illogical”, “weird”, or any of the other scary words used against the Church of Jesus Christ, I have seen used multiple times against Catholicism (with all the “logical” arguments), and in the same way that you may not be bothered or moved by such things, I am not when it is said against my Faith.

Also, my efforts are going very well here, as I repeatedly correct mistaken notions of Latter-day Saint belief, which is the reason why I post here sometimes in my very limited free time.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I disagree that you have made that point. Unlike you, I will not automatically discount the information provided by a former (insert religion). The information they provide can be much more telling than a current member of the same religion.

We have seen too many times where mormon posters will automatically discount anything said by a former mormon simply because they are former mormons.

Please cite the post where I stated that I automatically discount the information provided by a former (insert religion). I quite clearly stated, more than once, that-“this ***doesn’t ***automatically mean that ex-[insert religion] are not knowledgeable or cannot share their experiences.”

Many times, mormons automatically assume something is personal. Nobody here dislikes individual mormons. They do however dislike the mormon religion. There is a big difference.

Well, when you are talking about the Latter-day Saint faith, you are talking about something that people believe in very strongly, something that is very dear to them, so perhaps that is why some Latter-day Saints take it personally, since you’re talking about their personal faith. Also, if you read many of the posts in LDS-related threads, including many of your own posts, they are very personal, including some of your posts to me. I don’ take it personally, since I am not bothered by “internet arguments”, but they are indeed personal at times.

We have had previous posters (ParkerD) who would never admit the mormons teach their god has flesh and bones, while others, like Fatboy, believes he is an exalted man with a body.

Really? He never did? I just did a quick forum search of “bones” and “ParkerD”, and one of the first ones I saw was this one, where he said-"First, very important: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all in the Celestial glory, and the Father has a body of flesh and bones." Sorry.

These people (former mormons) know what they were taught, and for anyone to come in here and tell them they weren’t taught that, or they are wrong or lying is abhorrent.

I don’t believe I said that they are wrong or lying (on the other hand, how many times are Latter-day Saints told that they are wrong, lying, etc. How many times are we told what we “really” believe, or, as occurred in this thread, when we say no, I believe this, you are told, no, you actually believe this. How many times is the LDS belief in the witness of the Holy Ghost ridiculed (“oh burning of the bosom, you must mean indigestion! heehee”) But that is not abhorrent of course, right?). They are certainly welcome to share their experiences, as I am welcome to share my own. I believe I stated this earlier in this thread.

Again, this forum is not CARM, and what flies over there, doesn’t fly here.

Again, where did I say that this forum is CARM? Please do read my posts carefully. Thank you.

 

[twopekinguys]

Please cite the post where I stated that I automatically discount the information provided by a former (insert religion). I quite clearly stated, more than once, that-“this ***doesn’t ***automatically mean that ex-[insert religion] are not knowledgeable or cannot share their experiences.”

Well, when you are talking about the Latter-day Saint faith, you are talking about something that people believe in very strongly, something that is very dear to them, so perhaps that is why some Latter-day Saints take it personally, since you’re talking about their personal faith. Also, if you read many of the posts in LDS-related threads, including many of your own posts, they are very personal, including some of your posts to me. I don’ take it personally, since I am not bothered by “internet arguments”, but they are indeed personal at times.

Really? He never did? I just did a quick forum search of “bones” and “ParkerD”, and one of the first ones I saw was this one, where he said-“First, very important: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all in the Celestial glory, and the Father has a body of flesh and bones.” Sorry.

I don’t believe I said that they are wrong or lying (on the other hand, how many times are Latter-day Saints told that they are wrong, lying, etc. How many times are we told what we “really” believe, or, as occurred in this thread, when we say no, I believe this, you are told, no, you actually believe this. How many times is the LDS belief in the witness of the Holy Ghost ridiculed (“oh burning of the bosom, you must mean indigestion! heehee”) But that is not abhorrent of course, right?). They are certainly welcome to share their experiences, as I am welcome to share my own. I believe I stated this earlier in this thread.

Again, where did I say that this forum is CARM? Please do read my posts carefully. Thank you.

I love the little word games you like to use along with your obsessive tendencies. This is another common tactic we see.

I am not going to go through all of your drivel, because, quite simply that is all it is.

You are clearly trying to equate CARM with CAF, and it just doesn’t work that way.

While you may not come out and specifically state you discount what someone says because they are ex mormon, that is clearly your intent. I love how people like you try to pull this.

It is most typically seen when current mormons make the statement, Don’t tell me what I believe, without realizing the person they are talking with is a former mormon.

The don’t tell me what i believe statement is also quite frequently used as the persecution card.

Trust me, we have seen these tactics over the years.

You might want to take a cue from Fatboys. His original posting style is much like yours, but has become more conversational. Try it.

If I have made this too complicated for you, I am sorry.

Oh, and by the way, welcome to my ignore list.

 

[kimg901]

IMHO. Throw out your B.o.M and read the bible, thats all you need. Forget what smith said and follow what Christ said and did for us. What did smith say? That he has done more for the church than Christ? Why follow a man when you can just follow a Great & Divine man named Jesus. And dont try and say “We follow Jesus”. because as long as you hold on to that “other book”, you will never fully accept Christ. That “book” makes Christ out to be a liar. Is that what you trully believe Jesus and God are? Liars? For the sake of your souls, give up on these man made ideas.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I love the little word games you like to use along with your obsessive tendencies. This is another common tactic we see.

I am not going to go through all of your drivel, because, quite simply that is all it is.

You are clearly trying to equate CARM with CAF, and it just doesn’t work that way.

While you may not come out and specifically state you discount what someone says because they are ex mormon, that is clearly your intent. I love how people like you try to pull this.

It is most typically seen when current mormons make the statement, Don’t tell me what I believe, without realizing the person they are talking with is a former mormon.

The don’t tell me what i believe statement is also quite frequently used as the persecution card.

Trust me, we have seen these tactics over the years.

You might want to take a cue from Fatboys. His original posting style is much like yours, but has become more conversational. Try it.

If I have made this too complicated for you, I am sorry.

Oh, and by the way, welcome to my ignore list.

I understand that you will not address the fallacies and inaccuracies in your posts that I corrected (the one about ParkerD was particularly amusing).

Thank you, twopekingguys, for demonstrating that in one post, you say that it is not personal, and in the very next, you [continue to] make it personal. Also, thank you very showing me what I “really” think and my “real” intent. Reminds me of when I used to be a critic of the Latter-day Saint Faith. It has been amusing, and a good study break.

 

[LivingWaters7]

IMHO. Throw out your B.o.M and read the bible, thats all you need. Forget what smith said and follow what Christ said and did for us. What did smith say? That he has done more for the church than Christ? Why follow a man when you can just follow a Great & Divine man named Jesus. And dont try and say “We follow Jesus”. because as long as you hold on to that “other book”, you will never fully accept Christ. That “book” makes Christ out to be a liar. Is that what you trully believe Jesus and God are? Liars? For the sake of your souls, give up on these man made ideas.

Thank you for demonstrating what I stated earlier in this thread .

 

[kimg901]

Thank you for demonstrating what I stated earlier in this thread .

What did I demonstrate water? That I care for other peoples souls? Oh, my bad that I care.