How is the LDS a cult?

[pablope]

I really don’t understand all the hub bub over the LDS Church owning commercial property. What exactly is the objection here? Is it that a religious institution shouldn’t own commercial property at all? Is it that a religious institution may own commercial property but ought not invest in corporate interests? Is it that a religious institution may do all of the above but should rather use their property not set aside for ecclesiastical purposes for secular interests, such as schools, hospitals, charities, etc.? I might caution my fellow Catholics to take a minute to do some preliminary investigative work about our own glass houses before answering.

I think the issue is…using church resources to build a commencial enterprise…which raises the question…is the church’s purpose, one of them, to run a commercial enterprise?

Which would have been more wise…to lease the property and get rent…and have someone build and run the enterprise and take the risk? Or build it directly and run it and take the risk?

 

[pablope]

Temple Square is one of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints most sacred sites. Upgrading the down town area is worth the investment to make visiting the Temple more enjoyable and safe. There are more requests for visits by the LDS missionaries received there than from any other single location. There is no place on earth one can be closer to God.

Welll…is the purpose of the mall to attact people to go to the mall or to the temple?

And how can constructing a mall make visiting it more enjoyable and safe? Aren’t there other options besides a mall to make it more enjoyable and safe?

And this is puzzling…why does a LDS missionary need permission to visit the Temple Square?

For any one who believes my answer is not satisfactory please google the following: “Properties owned by the Catholic Church”

 

[twopekinguys]

And?

Don’t you think it a bit odd that a “church” happens to be the largest cattle producer in the US, and just happens to own a multi-Billion dollar shopping mall?

Why do you thing the first presidency of the the mormon church (3 old men) are incorporated?

 

[twopekinguys]

So,
After 53 pages of discussion… the LDS church is NOT a cult.
Good.
I didn’t find where I was supposed to condemn my neighbor.

And your credentials for making such a sweeping statement are?

What are your resources?

How do you counter the claims (with proofs) that have been presented?

That should keep you busy for a while.

 

[TexanKnight]

Why did you respond to the part of my post directed toward lax16 but ignore the part directed to you? I’m still waiting for details from lax16 about what (s)he meant to convey by that post since (s)he didn’t actually say much.

Concerning the conversation between you and me, to recap:

I asked what is so objectionable to the LDS owning property used for business enterprise. You responded “I do not own any malls near any of my sacred buildings.” which implies that your objection is to the geographical proximity of City Creek Center to Temple Square. If this is not what you meant by “I do not own any malls near any of my sacred buildings.” then I’m afraid I’ll have to ask for clarification of your post. If it is what you meant, then please tell me what is an appropriate distance from Temple Square for a mall to be built on LDS Church-owned property.

I did not respond because it was kind of question not worth answering. If you do not see the point, then either you will never get it, or you are intentionally not getting it.

Either way, not worth the trouble. You want to defend that conduct, have at it. I just ask you not to ask my silly questions. Deal?

 

[mtolympus]

Well…from the link it isaid this…It is a for profit operation and is not a normal part of the humanitarian efforts of the LDS Church. Gordon B. Hinckley, former president of the church has said, “We have felt that good farms, over a long period, represent a safe investment where the assets of the Church may be preserved and enhanced, while at the same time they are available as an agricultural resource to feed people should there come a time of need.”[6]

Yes, we are trying to be prepared should there be a major disaster or economic colapse. (However, I’m sure that would never happen considering the sound state of our economy.)

Will they feed people freely? My impression is they are preparing for an emergency, not for a current feeding program for the needy…but I could be wrong.

Yes, they feed people freely in disaster or emergency situations where food and supplies are shipped where needed. However, the welfare program is based on the principle that we work and do what we can. I am surprised that for some this seems to be an issue.

I hope this helps:

“For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, niether should he eat. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busy-bodies, Now them that are such we command in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.” (2 Thess. 3:10-12)

 

[kimg901]

Yes, we are trying to be prepared should there be a major disaster or economic colapse. (However, I’m sure that would never happen considering the sound state of our economy.)

Yes, they feed people freely in disaster or emergency situations where food and supplies are shipped where needed. However, the welfare program is based on the principle that we work and do what we can. I am surprised that for some this seems to be an issue.

I hope this helps:

“For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, niether should he eat. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busy-bodies, Now them that are such we command in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.” (2 Thess. 3:10-12)

If people are coming to the lds for food its because they need food but hey, you have to work for it. Where is the charity at in just helping people without getting something out of it? Thats the problem. Your scripture passage is for people that are lazy and wont work which is fine (I agree) but are you going to have elderly or handicapped people work? And from what lds people have told me about not getting food from their local ward is because they dont tithe or go to church enough. Real charitable

 

[mtolympus]

Welll…is the purpose of the mall to attact people to go to the mall or to the temple?

The mall brings more people to down town Salt Lake and therefore more visitors visit the temple grounds. It makes a visit to down town SLC (for what ever reason) a safer and more pleasent experience.

And how can constructing a mall make visiting it more enjoyable and safe? Aren’t there other options besides a mall to make it more enjoyable and safe?

Do you have a problem with shopping malls? I am sure you know that some places in cities are not safe and people wouldn’t want to visit or bring their family. Building the mall has revitalized down town Salt Lake City.

And this is puzzling…why does a LDS missionary need permission to visit the Temple Square?

You got me there, I guess you could read my comment that way.
The purpose of our missionary program is to spread the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. At temple square, more people make a request to have missionaries teach them the gospel than from any other single location.

What about the properties owned by the CC? Are you talking about the Vatican, the paintings…they are held in trust for the people of God…for all to see so that they are not kept hidden.

Please Google the following phrase: property owned by the catholic church. (Do not use quotation marks). You will find articles that show that the Catholic Church owns commercial property. Any Catholic reading these articles will have a hard time critisizing the LDS Church for building a mall on its property to improve the area around Temple Square.

 

[KathleenGee]

Likewise, you are not finding out what the commercial properties are being used for.

As I said, the religious order I spoke of uses the commercial properties to support and develop their ministries on the West Coast, which practically all the time I have resourced them, are free.

The intellectual and spiritual formation of these priests and religious are tremendous, and thier mission here is considered the center of orthodoxy for the Northwest.

The point here that the commercial properties are used eventually for the development of faith and spirituality that makes the dollar sign irrelevant.

 

[kimg901]

Mt. Olly, there is no restored gospel of Christ. To say such a thing is calling God and Jesus a liar.

 

[mtolympus]

If people are coming to the lds for food its because they need food but hey, you have to work for it. Where is the charity at in just helping people without getting something out of it? Thats the problem. Your scripture passage is for people that are lazy and wont work which is fine (I agree) but are you going to have elderly or handicapped people work? And from what lds people have told me about not getting food from their local ward is because they dont tithe or go to church enough. Real charitable

Hi Kimg901-
I truly do have a lot of respect for Catholic Charities and the LDS Church works with them in world relief efforts. But I have one question that I can’t quite figure out. If the Mormon system is so unchartable and harsh, why do people keep coming to Mormon Bishops for help? when the Catholic Church apparently has unliminted charity for all, and is 100 times the size of the Mormon Church?

 

[Adamski]

I have a work aquatence who grew up lds and 6 of the 7 siblings he has have left the lds church for trinity based Christianity or agnostic beliefs. His parents are still very involved in the lds church. And his parents haven’t shunned any of thier kids and they still all get together all the time.
So in that regard at least there is no shunning or ostracizing. Because I have a ex jw friend and thier parents will not return calls or talk to them.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I hope this helps:

“For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, niether should he eat. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busy-bodies, Now them that are such we command in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.” (2 Thess. 3:10-12)

You are taking these verses out of context, ignoring the back round and who they were addressed to. Paul was speaking to people like this

“44 And all who believed were together and had all things in common; 45 and they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need. 46 And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts”*

who found among them those that only held the “perks” in common and not the work needed to support the community.
Those verses are not a countermand to Christ’s command to feed the hungry.
There is nothing wrong with expecting people to abide by stipulations put on the receipt of your “stuff” be it cash, food, time but you can not call it charity and pretend it fulfills Christ’s command to give.

 

[lax16]

I’m sorry. I asked a succinct question in hopes for a succinct answer, not link dropping. I’m not sure exactly what you wish for me to flesh out of that as your answer to my question. It appears to me that the collective attitude in this thread in regards to the LDS owning commercial property that has been appropriated for a shopping mall is that it’s somehow wrong for, or at least unbecoming of a church, to have done so. I want to know what specifically about it is objectionable.

So, “for starters”, is it wrong for a church to own farms? Is it wrong for a church to operate businesses (such as farms) but perfectly OK for them to own the property? Is it wrong for a church to own any sort of commercial property whatsoever? What exactly from your link do you object to, that you believe can be reasonably extrapolated to other religious bodies as a no-no?

I am sorry if you are bothered by my link-dropping, but I feel the article does a very good job explaining what can happen to local farmers when the LDS church (for example) gets in to the farming business.

Is it wrong for the LDS to own farms? I don’t know how to answer that other than to say that it seems it can be bad for local economies.

I think you are raising a good question asking whether or not churches should own property or operate businesses.

I am not objecting to anything at this point, but feel the article gives a fair insight to both sides of the matter in relation to the farming issue.

 

[kimg901]

Hi Kimg901-
I truly do have a lot of respect for Catholic Charities and the LDS Church works with them in world relief efforts. But I have one question that I can’t quite figure out. If the Mormon system is so unchartable and harsh, why do people keep coming to Mormon Bishops for help? when the Catholic Church apparently has unliminted charity for all, and is 100 times the size of the Mormon Church?

I guess the answer to you question would depend on where you live. If you live in Utah then there is obviously a much higher lds population than Catholic so of course it would make sense that people would turn to the local bishops.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, we are trying to be prepared should there be a major disaster or economic colapse. (However, I’m sure that would never happen considering the sound state of our economy.)

[BIBLEDRB]matthew 6:25-34 [/BIBLEDRB]

 

[KathleenGee]

Good response, Rebecca.

Has anyone been aware of all the help the Madeleine Cathedral gives to the poor?..I was there and they were preparing lunches for people…

Is my memory serving me right that they have fed up to 5,000 people in a given period??

I also believe that in Catholicism we do not parade our almsgiving. I mean, it is evident what the Church does, we have many public places here that are Catholic and serve many people who are not Catholic, but still tend to keep a low profile.

Pride wants to boast but humility wants to hide itself.

I passed by the Deseret Store yesterday close to Temple where I do my various affairs, and the sign on the window was regarding materials inside to help someone become a better person, to expect more of one’s self. That is good. That leads to good fruit.

But in Catholicism we seek union with Christ, and all glory is to Him.

And the bottom line is that in tradition, it was only the rich to support the poor…and again, they themselves choose how much they want to give…

True good always provides us freedom of choice and free spirit, not bondage. So any organization should reflect on personal freedom and let people decide how they want to give. We see this issue at well in our current political dynamics.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

Heck, one of the things that the Congregation for the Causes of Saints looks at for the various causes put before them is the “cult following” of the particular person in question

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/csaints/documents/rc_con_csaints_doc_20050929_saraiva-martins-beatif_en.html

The word cult as per the congregations does not have a derogatory meaning attached to it like non-Christian world organizations do that practice things such as:

love bombing, withhold pertinent info to initiates, shunning, mandatory attendance & tithing, strict dress & changes meanings of especially basic terms used by mainline Christianity, for example the names of: Jesus, God, Holy Spirit. They alter meanings of scripture understood for centuries putting their own spin on it.

As per charity, the first hospital in the State of Washington was founded by a French Canadian Nun who learned construction skills from her father. She went to the logging camps to get donations & built schools here too. There is a statue of Mother Joseph in Statuary Hall in Washington, DC; a maverick architect & builder to be sure. As per Hospitals, the RCC is the world leader with over 260 in the USA alone that serves ONLY 83 million people!

Charitas R Us for a very long, long time. The Order of Malta, as per their radio ads on EWTN radio, alone is over 800 years old & that’s just one group!

 

[J_the_Centrist]

I agree, LDS is not a cult and we should see them as brothers and sisters in Christ. However, the splinter groups associated with LDS, which have gotten some attention over the year’s should be categorized as such for the harm they cause others. Unfortunately too many people can’t seem to differentiate between the two.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Good response, Rebecca.

Has anyone been aware of all the help the Madeleine Cathedral gives to the poor?..I was there and they were preparing lunches for people…

Yes still preparing sack lunches for anyone who shows up at the door. At times whole families with young children.

Is my memory serving me right that they have fed up to 5,000 people in a given period??

I haven’t heard any numbers.

I also believe that in Catholicism we do not parade our almsgiving. I mean, it is evident what the Church does, we have many public places here that are Catholic and serve many people who are not Catholic, but still tend to keep a low profile.

Pride wants to boast but humility wants to hide itself.

There it is.

I passed by the Deseret Store yesterday close to Temple where I do my various affairs, and the sign on the window was regarding materials inside to help someone become a better person, to expect more of one’s self. That is good. That leads to good fruit.

But in Catholicism we seek union with Christ, and all glory is to Him.

And the bottom line is that in tradition, it was only the rich to support the poor…and again, they themselves choose how much they want to give…

True good always provides us freedom of choice and free spirit, not bondage. So any organization should reflect on personal freedom and let people decide how they want to give. We see this issue at well in our current political dynamics.

Yes, I agree. I stopped donating to Deseret Industries. They are selling not giving to charity. The road home here provides resources for the homeless. What they don’t use they distribute to other organizations. Some ends back at the DI.