How is the LDS a cult?

[Nabooru]

The two people I know who most vociferously call the LDS a cult are former Mormons.

And yes, they do come after you if you leave, Scientology-style. One friend even had a bishop come to her door with a contract that said she agreed to go to hell since she was trying to leave the church!

 

[LivingWaters7]

Defined from the basics, Mormons are not Christians because they do not accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior;

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints most certainly accept Jesus Christ as our personal Savior. One must have faith in Jesus Christ before joining His Church, and continue to exercise that faith throughout life.

they do not believe that one’s personal belief in the validity of Jesus Christ will get them into Heaven.

Actually, we most certainly believe that one’s personal belief in the validity of Jesus Christ gets one into Heaven. Latter-day Saints believe that one must come unto Christ through faith in Him, repenting of one’s sins, being baptized by proper priesthood authority (i.e. we believe that we are the “one true Church”, so one must be baptized by those ordained to God’s priesthood), receiving the Holy Ghost by laying on of hands (again through God’s priesthood), and enduring to the end, following Christ’s commandments with continuous repentance made possible by Christ’s atoning sacrifice for us.

Mormons do not believe in the Trinity.

That is true, members of The Church of Jesus Christ do not believe in the traditional Trinity doctrine.

Mormons believe that just only being “A good person” is enough to get oneself into Heaven.

No, that is incorrect. Latter-day Saints believe that one must come unto Christ, whether in this life or the next, accepting His atoning sacrifice and His commandments, to receive the highest blessings God desires to offer us. Being “a good person” is not enough to receive those blessings.

Ask a Temple Mormon to explain how their soul might become a “god” and achieve getting their very own special Planet, stocked with virgins so they can produce “god-babies”, somewhere out there in the Universe.

Again, this is not correct. Latter-day Saints believe that through the atoning sacrifice of our divine Savior, Jesus Christ, we can become joint-heirs with Christ, heirs of God, partaking of the divine nature. We participate in the same life that God lives, in His presence, becoming gods. We also believe that families can be sealed together for time and eternity, and therefore those eternally married on earth will remain married in Heaven. So no, there is no planet “stocked with virgins”.

There are more rather “different” aspects of Mormonism; please take it upon oneselves to study this unique religion.
Is it Christian? A cult? Don’t make any assumptions; take some time to study Mormonism.

Yes, I agree that if one would like to discuss the history and beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, one should take some time and study it. Unfortunately, from the above, I do not think you have studied it.

 

[Jerusha]

Living waters, that is the superficial view, believed by many LDS who have not explored the ocean of Mormonism. What is beneath the waters, in the depths of LDS teachings, is much different. The Book of Mormon was written early in the development of the religion. Most of its theology is a representation of American Protestant theology from the 1800’s. (I make no mention of the narrative of the book.)

However, the Doctrines and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price were written later. (Journal of Discourses still later). They get VERY heterodox. Mormonism is a make-it-up-as-you-go religion. Therefore, you can claim whatever you want, and it will be representative of some believers.

Now, if Thomas Monson were to write an authoritative statement as to what Mormons believe and don’t believe, I might take him seriously. However, he doesn’t want to splinter a money-making church, so it just keeps on splintering. Pay your tithes, go to the temple, and don’t explore too deep into Mormon scriptures. Oh, and by the way, follow the prophet. :nope:

 

[Jerusha]

Mormonism has no creed, therefore, believe whatever you want to believe, so long as you sustain the (living) prophets and hierarchy. The dead prophets have no say-so, unless you are descended from them. You will have to read the D&C, PoGP, and JoD to understand the implications of that. Always changing, never the same.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Living waters, that is the superficial view, believed by many LDS who have not explored the ocean of Mormonism. What is beneath the waters, in the depths of LDS teachings, is much different. The Book of Mormon was written early in the development of the religion. Most of its theology is a representation of American Protestant theology from the 1800’s. (I make no mention of the narrative of the book.)

Are you addressing my previous post? If so, I am not sure how it engages what I wrote. The post to which I was responding to clearly had an erroneous understanding of Latter-day Saint belief, and I corrected that.

However, the Doctrines and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price were written later. (Journal of Discourses still later). They get VERY heterodox. Mormonism is a make-it-up-as-you-go religion. Therefore, you can claim whatever you want, and it will be representative of some believers.

This of course could not be further from the truth. The faith of the Latter-day Saints most certainly is not a make-it-up-as-you-go religion, and you certainly cannot claim whatever you want.

Now, if Thomas Monson were to write an authoritative statement as to what Mormons believe and don’t believe, I might take him seriously. However, he doesn’t want to splinter a money-making church, so it just keeps on splintering. Pay your tithes, go to the temple, and don’t explore too deep into Mormon scriptures. Oh, and by the way, follow the prophet. :nope:

I am not sure where you are getting your ideas about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from, however it is not from what we actually believe. None of the prophets or apostles has ever stated or implied to not explore too deeply the scriptures. Indeed, we are encouraged to study the scriptures daily, being inspired by the word of God. Further, many Latter-day Saints, including leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ, and “the Church” itself, have published extensive commentaries on the scriptures, as well as historical treatises on the latter-day revealed scriptures. The Church of Jesus Christ is no more “splintering” than the Catholic Church has and/or is splintering with various Protestant churches, sedevacantist churches, etc.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Mormonism has no creed, therefore, believe whatever you want to believe, so long as you sustain the (living) prophets and hierarchy. The dead prophets have no say-so, unless you are descended from them. You will have to read the D&C, PoGP, and JoD to understand the implications of that. Always changing, never the same.

Again, this is not true. Firstly, not having a "creed’ (some, including critics, may argue that the Articles of Faith is a “creed”) does not mean you can believe whatever you want. Indeed, the beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ are readily apparent to those that wish to study it, such as belief in Jesus Christ as our divine Savior, the Atonement of Jesus Christ, our pre-mortal existence, continuing revelation, the priesthood and its ordinances such as baptism, confirmation, blessings, etc., the temple and its sacred ordinances, etc. The “dead prophets” most certainly do have a “say-so”, otherwise we wouldn’t be encouraged and enjoy reading their words in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants, as well as studying the teachings of previous latter-day prophets and apostles.

 

[Jerusha]

For the general reader:
You saw it here. Living Waters recommends the reading of the Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and Journal of Discourses. Go ahead and :bigyikes:

Then pray for the misled.

 

[LivingWaters7]

For the general reader:
You saw it here. Living Waters recommends the reading of the Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and Journal of Discourses. Go ahead and :bigyikes:

Then pray for the misled.

Very odd. You claimed that “the dead prophets have no say-so, unless you are descended from them”, to which I responded that that is false, since Latter-day Saints are encouraged to read and study the words of “the dead prophets” as found in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants, as well as the words of latter-day prophets and apostles not found in the canonized scriptures. So obviously I support Latter-day Saints reading our own scriptures (and if non-LDS desire to do so, they certainly can).

 

[RebeccaJ]

Very odd. You claimed that “the dead prophets have no say-so, unless you are descended from them”, to which I responded that that is false, since Latter-day Saints are encouraged to read and study the words of “the dead prophets” as found in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants, as well as the words of latter-day prophets and apostles not found in the canonized scriptures. So obviously I support Latter-day Saints reading our own scriptures (and if non-LDS desire to do so, they certainly can).

No Mormon raises their hand in affirmation of sustaining a dead Mormon leader.

 

[Jerusha]

The dead prophets contradict your living statements. However, since Mormonism is a Gnostic (make up your own, and call it knowledge and truth) religion, you have the perfect right to diverge as far as you want. Obviously, your claims as to the nature of the LDS faith are not those of the dead prophets, and the living ones are scared to make an authoritative statement.

I am done. I’m sure that another member of the team will step in and take over.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The dead prophets contradict your living statements. However, since Mormonism is a Gnostic (make up your own, and call it knowledge and truth) religion, you have the perfect right to diverge as far as you want. Obviously, your claims as to the nature of the LDS faith are not those of the dead prophets, and the living ones are scared to make an authoritative statement.

I am done. I’m sure that another member of the team will step in and take over.

LW7 is dancing around the point. Certainly, anyone can read Mormon “scripture” or published works by LDS authors.

What has to be believed about what is read has wide variety, depending on which Mormon you ask. Some throw a lot out, others only throw out what is necessary to maintain a continuity of thought.

 

[LivingWaters7]

The dead prophets contradict your living statements. However, since Mormonism is a Gnostic (make up your own, and call it knowledge and truth) religion, you have the perfect right to diverge as far as you want. Obviously, your claims as to the nature of the LDS faith are not those of the dead prophets, and the living ones are scared to make an authoritative statement.

I am done. I’m sure that another member of the team will step in and take over.

The faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not a gnostic, make up your own and call it knowledge and truth, faith, and members of Christ’s Church certainly do not have the “perfect right” to diverge as far as they want (indeed, that is one reason for apostasy, both ancient and modern). My claims of the Latter-day Saint faith are consistent with the teachings of all the prophets of the restored Church of Jesus Christ. What I have found quite frequently (both as a member of the Church and when I was not) is that many critics, relying on the same critical and/or “anti” works, take various statements out of context, including within the actual context of the address/book/article/sermon/etc, as well as the context of the Latter-day Saint faith (noting that I’m sure that there are Latter-day Saints that do the same thing in reference to other faiths). Applying this same standard to the Biblical prophets, apostles, and disciples, we could say that there are contradictions between the prophets of the Old Testament and the apostles and prophets of the New Testament (or within the New Testament itself, or the New Testament and current practices of various churches).

 

[TexanKnight]

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints most certainly accept Jesus Christ as our personal Savior. One must have faith in Jesus Christ before joining His Church, and continue to exercise that faith throughout life.

Partly true, I suppose. But, LDS prophets have said no one gets into heaven without Joseph’s consent. So, not sure how important Jesus really is. Besides that, Joseph said he did more for the church than even Jesus…so…

Actually, we most certainly believe that one’s personal belief in the validity of Jesus Christ gets one into Heaven. Latter-day Saints believe that one must come unto Christ through faith in Him, repenting of one’s sins, being baptized by proper priesthood authority (i.e. we believe that we are the “one true Church”, so one must be baptized by those ordained to God’s priesthood), receiving the Holy Ghost by laying on of hands (again through God’s priesthood), and enduring to the end, following Christ’s commandments with continuous repentance made possible by Christ’s atoning sacrifice for us.

Well, since y’all believe God was once a sinful man and that Joseph did more than Jesus, how does that really work?

That is true, members of The Church of Jesus Christ do not believe in the traditional Trinity doctrine.

Well…that depends on what version of the Book of Mormon you read. Before the “most perfect book” was changed a ton of times, the very first editions of the Book of Mormon actually appeared to support belief in the Trinity.

No, that is incorrect. Latter-day Saints believe that one must come unto Christ, whether in this life or the next, accepting His atoning sacrifice and His commandments, to receive the highest blessings God desires to offer us. Being “a good person” is not enough to receive those blessings.

As long as Joseph approves…

Yes, I agree that if one would like to discuss the history and beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, one should take some time and study it. Unfortunately, from the above, I do not think you have studied it.

I have. Extensively…

 

[TexanKnight]

Again, this is not true. Firstly, not having a "creed’ (some, including critics, may argue that the Articles of Faith is a “creed”) does not mean you can believe whatever you want. Indeed, the beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ are readily apparent to those that wish to study it, such as belief in Jesus Christ as our divine Savior, the Atonement of Jesus Christ, our pre-mortal existence, continuing revelation, the priesthood and its ordinances such as baptism, confirmation, blessings, etc., the temple and its sacred ordinances, etc. The “dead prophets” most certainly do have a “say-so”, otherwise we wouldn’t be encouraged and enjoy reading their words in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants, as well as studying the teachings of previous latter-day prophets and apostles.

That depends on which books you read and which “prophets” you believe

 

[TexanKnight]

The faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not a gnostic, make up your own and call it knowledge and truth, faith, and members of Christ’s Church certainly do not have the “perfect right” to diverge as far as they want (indeed, that is one reason for apostasy, both ancient and modern).

That is actually untrue. Mormons ignore, whitewash, and distort doctrine from past prophets. They pick and choose what they want to espouse today

My claims of the Latter-day Saint faith are consistent with the teachings of all the prophets of the restored Church of Jesus Christ.

Which ones? The prophet who said it was doctrine that Adam is God? The one who said blood oaths are doctrine? The one who said Quakers were on the moon? The one who said we would never ever land a man on the moon? Which ones exactly do you believe?

What I have found quite frequently (both as a member of the Church and when I was not) is that many critics, relying on the same critical and/or “anti” works, take various statements out of context, including within the actual context of the address/book/article/sermon/etc, as well as the context of the Latter-day Saint faith (noting that I’m sure that there are Latter-day Saints that do the same thing in reference to other faiths). Applying this same standard to the Biblical prophets, apostles, and disciples, we could say that there are contradictions between the prophets of the Old Testament and the apostles and prophets of the New Testament (or within the New Testament itself, or the New Testament and current practices of various churches)

I have challenged so many of you to prove I have taken anything out of context and have NEVER been proven wrong. I simply post what was said and have shown I have been totally accurate in everything I have said.

.

 

[Porknpie]

Very odd. You claimed that “the dead prophets have no say-so, unless you are descended from them”, to which I responded that that is false, since Latter-day Saints are encouraged to read and study the words of “the dead prophets” as found in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants, as well as the words of latter-day prophets and apostles not found in the canonized scriptures. So obviously I support Latter-day Saints reading our own scriptures (and if non-LDS desire to do so, they certainly can).

Living Waters -

Where are the remnants of the great nations of the Neophites and Lamanites? There is much archeological evidence of the Mayans for example, but none of these two great civilizations.

Also, where in church history is the total apostasy? There is no mention of this anywhere by the early church fathers. None. Just the opposite, the Catholic church grew from a mustard to the ends of the earth, clearly visible to all just like Christ said it would.

Your religion is made up by a man and can not be verified using the teachings of your church. :ehh:

Peace.

 

[TexanKnight]

Living Waters -

Where are the remnants of the great nations of the Neophites and Lamanites? There is much archeological evidence of the Mayans for example, but none of these two great civilizations.

Also, where in church history is the total apostasy? There is no mention of this anywhere by the early church fathers. None. Just the opposite, the Catholic church grew from a mustard to the ends of the earth, clearly visible to all just like Christ said it would.

Your religion is made up by a man and can not be verified using the teachings of your church. :ehh:

Peace.

That is yet another problem. Hundreds of thousand of people died in battle In Palmyra, New York (according to Joseph Smith), yet the LDS refuses to excavate on its land. Why? because they KNOW they will not find anything to support Joseph Smith’s tales of fancy.

 

[Jerusha]

Also, where in church history is the total apostasy? There is no mention of this anywhere by the early church fathers. None

Instead, the ECF, particularly Irenaeus and Clement, knowledgeable about the gnostic cults. It is almost as if the Mormons had studied their descriptions and resurrected that form of gnosticism. It makes sense when you realize that gnosticism is particularly diverse, given its nature. That is the apostasy-- and Mormons are deep into it. :sad_yes:

You can wade through Against Heresies and Stromata, if you want. I have about 12 excerpts.

 

[TexanKnight]

that has always befuddled me. No one knows where the alleged Book of Mormon History took place. So, any excavation to prove any claims are futile. And those who have tried have failed and found nothing.

Yet, there IS one place that current LDS prophets have claimed we know. Palmyra, New York. A great battle where thousands upon thousands died occurred at Hill Cumorah. So, since that is the ONLY place we know of from the Book of Mormon, why hasn’t anyone excavated? It would be THE way to prove Joseph right. IF we find the bones and evidence of such a great battle right there, then the Book of Mormon has at least SOME evidence that it is authentic.

Yet, in the ONE place LDS leaders know about from the Book of Mormon, NO excavation has been done. None. Nada. Zip.

That should tell us all we want to know about if the LDS Leaders truly believe the Smith Fairly Tales.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Don’t you know TK? The battle location in the BoM may or may not be the same hill in NY.