How is the LDS a cult?

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TexanKnight: At what point does a word taken from another language cease to be ‘foreign’?

NeuroTypical: Thanks for the etymology lesson! 🙂
 
xixxvmcm85 said:
TexanKnight: At what point does a word taken from another language cease to be ‘foreign’?

NeuroTypical: Thanks for the etymology lesson! 🙂
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It will always be foreign. Example: “picante” is used very frequently here, but that does not make it less a Hispanic word, does it?
 
TexanKnight said:
It will always be foreign. Example: “picante” is used very frequently here, but that does not make it less a Hispanic word, does it?
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In that case isn’t every word in the English language foreign, if not in the sense of directly borrowing words then by evolving words from Latin, Greek and German? I served my LDS mission in Germany and grew to appreciate German’s influence on English very early on (whether that be due to shared patrimony or acquiescence into the lexicon). Is “milk” an English word (auf Deutsch sagt man “milch”), how about “water” (es ist ein Deutsches wort auch! “wasser”). What about nearly every English word which begins with “eu”? These are taken almost verbatim from Greek. Surely at some point foreign words are granted a sort of naturalization process otherwise language would never ever evolve! What about cases where one language adopts the use of a word from another while that mother tongue begins to lose the use of the word? A prime example is “Rodeo”. I’m a fluent Spanish-speaker and I’ll tell ya, nobody says “Oyes! Tengo boletos pa’el rodeo este fin de semana! Quieres ir conmigo?” The only people I hear say “rodeo” are White, Southern Americans. “Rodeo” is now more English than it is Spanish!

tl;dr version: TexanKnight’s distinction between “foreign” and “common use” is silly.
 
NeuroTypical said:
Are you serious? I can help you out.

Adieu in an English word. Webster’s 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language includes “adieu”. If you do a google books search of the word, you will find it appearing all over the place in English-language books written at the time. Louisa May Alcott, Jane Austen, James Fenimore Cooper, Nathaniel Hawthorne - all wrote books in English containing the word Adieu. Poe used it. Harriet Beecher Stowe did. Fredereick William Thomas. Heck, Mark Twain used it in 3 different books. I could post all 956 books from my google search if you like.

Does this help you out, twopekinguys?
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NT -

I can help you out.

Back to Merriam-Webster… merriam-webster.com/dictionary/adieu?show=0&t=1355571791
Origin of ADIEU
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Middle English, from Anglo-French a deu, a dieu, literally, to God
First Known Use: 14th century
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Todd_Martin said:
This is a tragedy. My advice to a young person who wants to get married. Don’t marry a Mormon or a Jehovah’s Witness unless you plan to convert, convert everyone in your family, then convert all your friends. Otherwise, you will lose them all.

I just don’t understand why anyone would want to get involved in all of this!?
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Wait, does this mean that one should also not marry a Seventh-Day Adventist or a member of the Iglesia ni Cristo unless one plans to convert? O:
 
Crescentinus said:
Wait, does this mean that one should also not marry a Seventh-Day Adventist or a member of the Iglesia ni Cristo unless one plans to convert? O:
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Yes, they all hold to restorationist theology. There are also Baptist and Pentecostal groups who are very anti-Catholic. IMHO, based on personal experience, Catholics should exercise great caution when considering a mixed marriage. EO, Lutheran, or Episcopalian are the best bets. Watch out for jackMormons, you might not even know it until too late. (JackMormon= people who are not practicing Mormons, but come from Mormon families and therefore have some of the beliefs in their cultural heritage.)
 
xixxvmcm85 said:
In that case isn’t every word in the English language foreign, if not in the sense of directly borrowing words then by evolving words from Latin, Greek and German? I served my LDS mission in Germany and grew to appreciate German’s influence on English very early on (whether that be due to shared patrimony or acquiescence into the lexicon). Is “milk” an English word (auf Deutsch sagt man “milch”), how about “water” (es ist ein Deutsches wort auch! “wasser”). What about nearly every English word which begins with “eu”? These are taken almost verbatim from Greek. Surely at some point foreign words are granted a sort of naturalization process otherwise language would never ever evolve! What about cases where one language adopts the use of a word from another while that mother tongue begins to lose the use of the word? A prime example is “Rodeo”. I’m a fluent Spanish-speaker and I’ll tell ya, nobody says “Oyes! Tengo boletos pa’el rodeo este fin de semana! Quieres ir conmigo?” The only people I hear say “rodeo” are White, Southern Americans. “Rodeo” is now more English than it is Spanish!

tl;dr version: TexanKnight’s distinction between “foreign” and “common use” is silly.
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seriously?

I know you are more intelligent than this.

Yes…almost all of your words have foreign origin. But, and I am sure you agree, SOME words retain more of their foreign taste to this and are not typically used. I am 52 years old. I have an advanced degree and am well-read. Yet, the ONLY time I have used the word “adieu” was when playing Frederick in the “Sound of Music” when i was a kid.

I, too, am a fluent Spanish Speaker. I served my mission in Honduras. And while some words, like Rodeo, are now considered more English than Spanish, other Spanish words are not considered so. “Adios” is used a lot in Texas, but no one considers it an English word.

So, call me silly should it make you feel better, but there is nothing silly in my argument.
 
TexanKnight - what is your advanced degree in? I only have a BS in finance from the University of Utah.
 
NeuroTypical said:
TexanKnight - what is your advanced degree in? I only have a BS in finance from the University of Utah.
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I have a JD…

I love U of U…when I was at the MTC, I was close to BYU, but still always preferred U of U
 
TexanKnight said:
when I was at the MTC, I was close to BYU, but still always preferred U of U
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I think most mormons secretly think the same thing.

If I ever go back for a higher degree, I would seriously consider BYU. Not for any good reason - it’s just that I think I could swing a medical release for my goatee, and I’d love to test all the zoobies’ understanding of unrighteous judgement. 😃
 
TexanKnight said:
Consider the following letter written by Mark Twain on Nov. 20, 1905. I assume we can agree that Samuel clemans was not French.
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TexanKnight said:
And I assume you will agree that Joseph was not Samuel…and that Joseph did not have near Samuel’s education and literary prowess
Geoffrey Chaucer, father of English literature, used adieu around 1374:
lol…so now you compare an English Scholar with an uneducated rural American? This your idea of convincing apologetics?
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NOTE: Blue is from TexasKnight and Black is from NueroT.

TexanKnight,

I really must be missing something.
I believe that Joseph Smith was not ABSENT the process of translation such that the word choice of “adieu” MIGHT be a product of the human who was inspired as a prophet to translate by the gift and power of God. I believe the name Alma (for a male) was something that likely had significantly less HUMAN in it. There is evidence that Joseph Smith would spell some names during the translation so these were somehow important. (Other things I think have perhaps more human in them). So, my view of God & His prophet involved in the translation seems to align well with “Alma,” “adieu” and …
When you argue that Joseph Smith likely NEVER knew the word “adieu” before he translated the BOM, became a more educated adult, and …; what is your point. Surely it is not that “adieu” came from God?
And, since there is next to nothing written by Joseph Smith before he was involved in the translation of the BOM it sounds like you are asking for a recording taken in 1817 in the Smith home. God to my knowledge has not provided this via miracle, and there were not any tape recorders around back then. So, asking for evidence that is not likely to exist even if the BOM is from God is all well and good, but it should not be viewed as somehow making your case.
Now back to my earlier point. If I grant you that Joseph Smith could not have known the word “Adieu,” as you appear to be trying to argue, how do you explain its presence in the BOM?

Charity, TOm
 
As a teenager I thought that LDS was a cult, solely based on the wearing of the “garments”, (magic underwear) and the procedure that must be used in order to get rid of the garments and the masonic markings on them! Now I realize that using externals as proof for a religion being a cult is very childlike. Reading the story of Joseph Smith and the lack of true archeology evidence is enough for me!
 
Heck im going to make my own book. Ill need some help from some of you folks so you can listen to me while I stick my head in a hat (My Packers hat should work) and read the golden plates with my stones. All i ask is that you help for 6-9 months and you say that everything I tell you is real okay? 👍
 
NeuroTypical said:
I think most mormons secretly think the same thing.

If I ever go back for a higher degree, I would seriously consider BYU. Not for any good reason - it’s just that I think I could swing a medical release for my goatee, and I’d love to test all the zoobies’ understanding of unrighteous judgement. 😃
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lol…

I really loved living those 2 months in Utah and 2 other months in Idaho. Something about being close to the mountains.
 
TOmNossor said:
**

NOTE: Blue is from TexasKnight and Black is from NueroT.

TexanKnight,

I really must be missing something.
I believe that Joseph Smith was not ABSENT the process of translation such that the word choice of “adieu” MIGHT be a product of the human who was inspired as a prophet to translate by the gift and power of God. I believe the name Alma (for a male) was something that likely had significantly less HUMAN in it. There is evidence that Joseph Smith would spell some names during the translation so these were somehow important. (Other things I think have perhaps more human in them). So, my view of God & His prophet involved in the translation seems to align well with “Alma,” “adieu” and …
When you argue that Joseph Smith likely NEVER knew the word “adieu” before he translated the BOM, became a more educated adult, and …; what is your point. Surely it is not that “adieu” came from God?
And, since there is next to nothing written by Joseph Smith before he was involved in the translation of the BOM it sounds like you are asking for a recording taken in 1817 in the Smith home. God to my knowledge has not provided this via miracle, and there were not any tape recorders around back then. So, asking for evidence that is not likely to exist even if the BOM is from God is all well and good, but it should not be viewed as somehow making your case.
Now back to my earlier point. If I grant you that Joseph Smith could not have known the word “Adieu,” as you appear to be trying to argue, how do you explain its presence in the BOM?

Charity, TOm
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I have always maintained that Joseph did not write the book by himself but had help from the fellow who used to be a school teacher.
 
kimg901 said:
Heck im going to make my own book. Ill need some help from some of you folks so you can listen to me while I stick my head in a hat (My Packers hat should work) and read the golden plates with my stones. All i ask is that you help for 6-9 months and you say that everything I tell you is real okay? 👍
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BLASPHEMY! Use a Kansas City Chiefs hat! Not those false Packers.
 
kimg901 said:
Heck im going to make my own book. Ill need some help from some of you folks so you can listen to me while I stick my head in a hat (My Packers hat should work) and read the golden plates with my stones. All i ask is that you help for 6-9 months and you say that everything I tell you is real okay? 👍
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Well see, I don’t see anyone taking you up on your offer. Joseph had a dozen different people testify they saw the plates, and maintained that testimony even though many of them eventually left the church.

You also need to endure persecution, get tarred and feathered, beaten so badly you walk with a limp, and ultimately give up your life and your brother’s life to a mob rather than just admit you made it all up.

Do all that, then we’ll talk about how you just scored a point against the truth claims of my faith…
 
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