How is the LDS a cult?

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Well see, I don’t see anyone taking you up on your offer. Joseph had a dozen different people testify they saw the plates, and maintained that testimony even though many of them eventually left the church.

You also need to endure persecution, get tarred and feathered, beaten so badly you walk with a limp, and ultimately give up your life and your brother’s life to a mob rather than just admit you made it all up.

Do all that, then we’ll talk about how you just scored a point against the truth claims of my faith…
Wow! That is some revisionist history! Several LDS sources give the eleven witnesses, men who bore their testimony to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon the special title of eyewitness; however, it appears doubtful that any of them actually saw the plates apart from a supernatural and subjective experience. While they all claimed to have handled what they were told were ancient plates, they did so while the plates were covered up and not visible.

The three witnesses claim to have seen the plates in the hands of an angel in a vision, with spiritual eyes as Martin Harris claimed.

As far what motivated Joseph Smith to keep the charade going the answer is simple. People loved him and thought him a great prophet. Of course he wasn’t going to walk away from that. Power over thousands of people, fame, control, sex with whatever woman he chose. That’s like asking why Saddam Hussein didn’t just give up his power. It’s too appealing.
 
Well see, I don’t see anyone taking you up on your offer. Joseph had a dozen different people testify they saw the plates, and maintained that testimony even though many of them eventually left the church.
Neuro, did many or all of them eventually leave the Church?
You also need to endure persecution, get tarred and feathered, beaten so badly you walk with a limp,
Who were the people that tarred and feathered JS?

And why did they do so?
and ultimately give up your life and your brother’s life to a mob rather than just admit you made it all up.
Why did the mob attack JS?
 
Well see, I don’t see anyone taking you up on your offer. Joseph had a dozen different people testify they saw the plates, and maintained that testimony even though many of them eventually left the church.

You also need to endure persecution, get tarred and feathered, beaten so badly you walk with a limp, and ultimately give up your life and your brother’s life to a mob rather than just admit you made it all up.

Do all that, then we’ll talk about how you just scored a point against the truth claims of my faith…
The so call witness statements all appear to be written by the same person, and merely signed by the individuals.

People keep those kind of secrets in order to save their own hide, even those of their family members.

Tarred, feathered, and beaten because of your own actions, which was also called frontier justice.

According to mormon sources, he had the limp from childhood illness. Remember, he ran through the woods with the plates, etc. and had a limp at that time, so that was not part of his “beating”

You also mean dieing in a gun battle right? You do know that he shot back right? Injuring and even killing at least one person. This is also in your church’s history. It was testified to by mormon elder Reed Blake.

Nobody here supports mob action and murder, but at the same time, smith was not “Lamb being led to slaughter” either.
 
Now, see, the last three posts have some meat to them. The claim that “I’m gonna make up a book and be just like Joseph Smith cuz that’s all he did” doesn’t. That’s all I’m saying.
 
Well see, I don’t see anyone taking you up on your offer. Joseph had a dozen different people testify they saw the plates, and maintained that testimony even though many of them eventually left the church.

Actually, according to martin Harris, they saw them with their “spiritual eyes”

You also need to endure persecution, get tarred and feathered, beaten so badly you walk with a limp, and ultimately give up your life and your brother’s life to a mob rather than just admit you made it all up.

Actually, he walked with a limp due to a surgery he had as a child. Just one of the things that would have made it impossible to run for 3 miles allegedly carrying the plates while being chased. And you just mentioned the tough stuff. he also got to tell his followers that God told him that THEY had to pay for and build him a house…which they did. he also got be a mayor, a general and a prophet. People gave him money, they did his bidding…and he bid a lot…

Do all that, then we’ll talk about how you just scored a point against the truth claims of my faith…

The points were scored…
 
Well see, I don’t see anyone taking you up on your offer. Joseph had a dozen different people testify they saw the plates, and maintained that testimony even though many of them eventually left the church.

You also need to endure persecution, get tarred and feathered, beaten so badly you walk with a limp, and ultimately give up your life and your brother’s life to a mob rather than just admit you made it all up.

Do all that, then we’ll talk about how you just scored a point against the truth claims of my faith…
Like I just said in the great apostasy thread, the ultimate fruit of Smith’s theological concoction was his own DEATH!
 
Now, see, the last three posts have some meat to them. The claim that “I’m gonna make up a book and be just like Joseph Smith cuz that’s all he did” doesn’t. That’s all I’m saying.
Neuro -

I asked simple questions in post #414. Do you have the answers?
 
@Neuro: You obviously dont see or cant understand how absurd such claims are about someone putting their head in a hat and running with gold plates. Have you ever held a gold bar? They weigh alot so for smith to be running through the woods with 3 golden plates and a pimp limp is crazy. Joseph had this dream and it is called Josephs Myth.
 
The so call witness statements all appear to be written by the same person, and merely signed by the individuals.
Yep.
Royal Skousen:
On the other hand, the eight-witness statement was written by a human participant – probably Joseph Smith, in my opinion – who drew upon the language of the three-witness statement (especially the opening words) but used his own language to describe the experience of the eight witnesses: what the plates looked liked (their “appearance”), plus how these witnesses “hefted” the plates and “did handle with our hands” the leaves.
Royal Skousen:
The earliest copy of the testimony that follows is found in the printer’s manuscript of the Book of Mormon, in the handwriting of Oliver Cowdery. Cowdery likely was the author of the statement, given his writing abilities and similarities between the document and Cowdery’s 1829 correspondence to Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith…
 
There were two main reasons for the tar and feathering.

Also, they were tarred and feathered by their own members, and not an angry mob of anti’s
  1. First was their plan to have all of their church members sign over all of their assets and properties to the “United Order” communal experiment. Some members saw this as Smith and Rigdon’s scheme to fleece them, and rightly so; the financial disaster that was the United Order, which culminated in the Kirtland Bank scandal, caused many Mormons to lose their life savings, and about half of all church members abandoned the faith over the incident, including most of the original twelve apostles.
and
  1. Second, it was alleged that Smith made a pass at Johnson’s 15 year-old daughter, Nancy Marinda, and that was her brothers’ motivation for attacking Smith. “Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith” supports this idea, but in his “In Sacred Loneliness” Todd Compton doubts it for lack of convincing evidence. It’s likely true that Smith made the pass at Marinda for five reasons. (They can be found at the link below)
Here is some more interesting tidbits.

Faithful Latter-day Saint Mary Elizabeth Rollins testified that Joseph had a private conversation with her in 1831; she was then twelve years old. She said Joseph ‘told me about his great vision concerning me. He said I was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife.’
  • Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner to Emmeline B. Wells, summer 1905, LDS Archives
and

Within six months of Joseph’s conversation with 12 year-old Mary Elizabeth Rollins, he and Emma had moved into the John Johnson home, where 15 year-old Marinda lived. Orson Pratt later quoted Lyman Johnson as saying that ‘Joseph had made known to him as early as 1831 that plural marriage was a correct principle,’ but remarked also that ‘the time had not yet come to teach and practice it.’
  • Orson Pratt, "Latter-day Saints Millennial Star (Liverpool England), 40 (16 Dec. 1878):788)
Everybody notice she was 12 years old?

mormoncurtain.com/topic_joesephsmith_section2.html
 
Curious, Is the statement below representative of the LDS?
As the kids say “Oh, hells yes!” Questioning the Brethren is not a good thing. If not corrected, it can lead to with-held sacraments (Communion, “temple blessings”) often referred to as a “Bishop’s probation” and if persistant, excommunication.
 
There were two main reasons for the tar and feathering.

Also, they were tarred and feathered by their own members, and not an angry mob of anti’s
  1. First was their plan to have all of their church members sign over all of their assets and properties to the “United Order” communal experiment. Some members saw this as Smith and Rigdon’s scheme to fleece them, and rightly so; the financial disaster that was the United Order, which culminated in the Kirtland Bank scandal, caused many Mormons to lose their life savings, and about half of all church members abandoned the faith over the incident, including most of the original twelve apostles.
and
  1. Second, it was alleged that Smith made a pass at Johnson’s 15 year-old daughter, Nancy Marinda, and that was her brothers’ motivation for attacking Smith. “Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith” supports this idea, but in his “In Sacred Loneliness” Todd Compton doubts it for lack of convincing evidence. It’s likely true that Smith made the pass at Marinda for five reasons. (They can be found at the link below)
Here is some more interesting tidbits.

Faithful Latter-day Saint Mary Elizabeth Rollins testified that Joseph had a private conversation with her in 1831; she was then twelve years old. She said Joseph ‘told me about his great vision concerning me. He said I was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife.’
  • Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner to Emmeline B. Wells, summer 1905, LDS Archives
and

Within six months of Joseph’s conversation with 12 year-old Mary Elizabeth Rollins, he and Emma had moved into the John Johnson home, where 15 year-old Marinda lived. Orson Pratt later quoted Lyman Johnson as saying that ‘Joseph had made known to him as early as 1831 that plural marriage was a correct principle,’ but remarked also that ‘the time had not yet come to teach and practice it.’
  • Orson Pratt, "Latter-day Saints Millennial Star (Liverpool England), 40 (16 Dec. 1878):788)
Everybody notice she was 12 years old?

mormoncurtain.com/topic_joesephsmith_section2.html
just wow
 
Neuro,

We know you have been online since all of this information was posted.

We are wondering if you were going to address any of it?
 
As an active member of the LDS church, I feel that referring to our church as a cult is inappropriate and reflects the person making that charge lack of understanding of the truth. We base our concept of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost on the vision of Joseph Smith in upstate New York in a sacred grove in 1820 as a 14 year old boy. He went there to ask God which church was the true one because he was confused and wanted to do what was right. He saw a vision in which God the Father and his son Jesus Christ appeared to him as two separate beings, with glorified bodies of flesh and bone. From this vision, Joseph knew that they were two separate beings and the Holy Ghost was a separate personage of spirit only.

The concept of the trinity comes from the Council of Nicea and other councils that God is three persons in one. This council was called in 325 AD by Constantine, a pagan leader of Rome. He wanted to make Christianity a state religion and was desirous that the christians agreed on some basic concepts including the nature God. It is this disagreement on the nature of God that we are referred to as a cult.

I encourage everyone to read the Bible with the understanding that they are separate beings and all the occasions that the bible agrees with this concept. I also encourage everyone to pray and ask God for a knowledge of the truth and he will answer your prayer.

Sincerely,

Dallas Murdoch
 
As an active member of the LDS church, I feel that referring to our church as a cult is inappropriate and reflects the person making that charge lack of understanding of the truth. We base our concept of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost on the vision of Joseph Smith in upstate New York in a sacred grove in 1820 as a 14 year old boy. He went there to ask God which church was the true one because he was confused and wanted to do what was right. He saw a vision in which God the Father and his son Jesus Christ appeared to him as two separate beings, with glorified bodies of flesh and bone. From this vision, Joseph knew that they were two separate beings and the Holy Ghost was a separate personage of spirit only.

The concept of the trinity comes from the Council of Nicea and other councils that God is three persons in one. This council was called in 325 AD by Constantine, a pagan leader of Rome. He wanted to make Christianity a state religion and was desirous that the christians agreed on some basic concepts including the nature God. It is this disagreement on the nature of God that we are referred to as a cult.

I encourage everyone to read the Bible with the understanding that they are separate beings and all the occasions that the bible agrees with this concept. I also encourage everyone to pray and ask God for a knowledge of the truth and he will answer your prayer.

Sincerely,

Dallas Murdoch
  1. Which version of the first vision are you going by? There are 9 different versions.
  2. Bearing your testimony (as you’ve done here) can be considered proseltyzing, and is against the rules.
  3. There are more reasons than the Trinity that define mormonism as a cult.
  4. Original versions of the BoM, and other mormon scriptures supported traditional views of the Trinity, but the “most correct book ever published” has undergone many changes since then.
Did you know these things?
 
As an active member of the LDS church, I feel that referring to our church as a cult is inappropriate and reflects the person making that charge lack of understanding of the truth. We base our concept of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost on the vision of Joseph Smith in upstate New York in a sacred grove in 1820 as a 14 year old boy. He went there to ask God which church was the true one because he was confused and wanted to do what was right. He saw a vision in which God the Father and his son Jesus Christ appeared to him as two separate beings, with glorified bodies of flesh and bone. From this vision, Joseph knew that they were two separate beings and the Holy Ghost was a separate personage of spirit only.

The concept of the trinity comes from the Council of Nicea and other councils that God is three persons in one. This council was called in 325 AD by Constantine, a pagan leader of Rome. He wanted to make Christianity a state religion and was desirous that the christians agreed on some basic concepts including the nature God. It is this disagreement on the nature of God that we are referred to as a cult.

I encourage everyone to read the Bible with the understanding that they are separate beings and all the occasions that the bible agrees with this concept. I also encourage everyone to pray and ask God for a knowledge of the truth and he will answer your prayer.

Sincerely,

Dallas Murdoch
Welcome Dallas.

How long have you been LDS? Have you ever been Catholic or a member of another Church…if so which one(s)?
 
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