How is the LDS a cult?

[Aramis]

The concept of the trinity comes from the Council of Nicea and other councils that God is three persons in one. This council was called in 325 AD by Constantine, a pagan leader of Rome. He wanted to make Christianity a state religion and was desirous that the christians agreed on some basic concepts including the nature God. It is this disagreement on the nature of God that we are referred to as a cult.

This portion of your post evidences a severe misunderstanding of the nature of the council.

Trinitarian Christianity was already present - it was the minority of writers before the council, but was extant. (There are hints of it even in the Gospels.) After the council, the majority of the Council Fathers, much to the surprise of several groups, affirmed the Trinity, the full participation in divinity of Christ

This is the core teaching of the Nicene Council:
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
By whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth
Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;
He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
And in the Holy Ghost.
But those who say: ‘There was a time when he was not;’ and ‘He was not before he was made;’ and ‘He was made out of nothing,’ or ‘He is of another substance’ or ‘essence,’ or ‘The Son of God is created,’ or ‘changeable,’ or ‘alterable’—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.

An earlier council following the council at Jerusalem in about AD 50, would have been unlikely - persecution of the Christians had started in 58 or so, and ended only 12 years before Nicea, and it would take a decade or longer for many to not believe it a mere trick of the Roman state to gather and execute the leadership of the church.

The Definition of “Christian” was passed at Nicea, as well - and Mormons don’t fit it. The Empire adopted it… but the counil devised and passed it.

 

[zaffiroborant]

dallas123;10149725:

The concept of the trinity comes from the Council of Nicea and other councils that God is three persons in one. This council was called in 325 AD by Constantine, a pagan leader of Rome. He wanted to make Christianity a state religion and was desirous that the christians agreed on some basic concepts including the nature God. It is this disagreement on the nature of God that we are referred to as a cult.

Dallas Murdoch

This portion of your post evidences a severe misunderstanding of the nature of the council.

.

This is the same thing one hears from other LDS, it is so universal among them that it must be something the LDS church teaches it’s membership.

 

[rellanor]

The main reason they are a cult is they dont beleive Jesus was God. Now try reading your bible and try to come up with that conclusion.

 

[RebeccaJ]

This is the same thing one hears from other LDS, it is so universal among them that it must be something the LDS church teaches it’s membership.

Just one example from LDS.org…

"History tells us, for example, of a great council held in A.D. 325 in Nicaea. By this time Christianity had emerged from the dank dungeons of Rome to become the state religion of the Roman Empire, but the church still had problems—chiefly the inability of Christians to agree among themselves on basic points of doctrine. To resolve differences, Emperor Constantine called together a group of Christian bishops to establish once and for all the official doctrines of the church.

Consensus did not come easily. Opinions on such basic subjects as the nature of God were diverse and deeply felt, and debate was spirited. Decisions were not made by inspiration or revelation, but by majority vote, and some disagreeing factions split off and formed new churches. Similar doctrinal councils were held later in A.D. 451, 787, and 1545, with similarly divisive results."

The bold part is what gets me.

Lord have mercy.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Just one example from LDS.org…

"History tells us, for example, of a great council held in A.D. 325 in Nicaea. By this time Christianity had emerged from the dank dungeons of Rome to become the state religion of the Roman Empire, but the church still had problems—chiefly the inability of Christians to agree among themselves on basic points of doctrine. To resolve differences, Emperor Constantine called together a group of Christian bishops to establish once and for all the official doctrines of the church.

Consensus did not come easily. Opinions on such basic subjects as the nature of God were diverse and deeply felt, and debate was spirited. Decisions were not made by inspiration or revelation, but by majority vote, and some disagreeing factions split off and formed new churches. Similar doctrinal councils were held later in A.D. 451, 787, and 1545, with similarly divisive results."

The bold part is what gets me.

Lord have mercy.

What really irks me are the LDS members who go on about how LDS never tear down other religions when in actuality they do nothing but tear down others. There are missionaries right now at the very moment I post this that are tearing down the religion of others. They can’t promote theirs without tearing down others.

 

[RebeccaJ]

What really irks me are the LDS members who go on about how LDS never tear down other religions when in actuality they do nothing but tear down others. There are missionaries right now at the very moment I post this that are tearing down the religion of others. They can’t promote theirs without tearing down others.

Yes, I agree.

 

[dallas123]

1. Which version of the first vision are you going by? There are 9 different versions.

All versions are accepted but the one that is most complete is the one found in the Pearl of Great Price.

1. Bearing your testimony (as you’ve done here) can be considered proseltyzing, and is against the rules.
2. There are more reasons than the Trinity that define mormonism as a cult.
3. Original versions of the BoM, and other mormon scriptures supported traditional views of the Trinity, but the “most correct book ever published” has undergone many changes since then.

Did you know these things?

It is true that errors were made in the translation of the Book of Mormon but none of them affect the truthfulness of the gospel contained in the book. The church has been active in identifying and correcting these errors in later printings.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

As an active member of the LDS church, I feel that referring to our church as a cult is inappropriate and reflects the person making that charge lack of understanding of the truth. We base our concept of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost on the vision of Joseph Smith in upstate New York in a sacred grove in 1820 as a 14 year old boy. He went there to ask God which church was the true one because he was confused and wanted to do what was right. He saw a vision in which God the Father and his son Jesus Christ appeared to him as two separate beings, with glorified bodies of flesh and bone. From this vision, Joseph knew that they were two separate beings and the Holy Ghost was a separate personage of spirit only.

The concept of the trinity comes from the Council of Nicea and other councils that God is three persons in one. This council was called in 325 AD by Constantine, a pagan leader of Rome. He wanted to make Christianity a state religion and was desirous that the christians agreed on some basic concepts including the nature God. It is this disagreement on the nature of God that we are referred to as a cult.

I encourage everyone to read the Bible with the understanding that they are separate beings and all the occasions that the bible agrees with this concept. I also encourage everyone to pray and ask God for a knowledge of the truth and he will answer your prayer.

Sincerely,

Dallas Murdoch

Dear Dallas:

We have the writings that dating back to the beginning of the Church.

trinitas is found in Genesis & all thru the Bible, implicitly stated of course; see the baptismal formula “go and baptize in the **name **of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”

God hints at trinity all over the place, implicitly

Jehovah Witnesses say the same thing re: Nicea… which is weak & incorrect…

According to Wm Jurgens “The Faith of the Early Fathers” states the idea of the Trinitas is CLEAR in the Tradition of THE Church even in the Pre-Nicene era.

St. Clement who’s writings date back to 80 AD
St Polycarp 155 AD,
St Dionysius of Corinth “The Evening Hymn of the Greeks” 2nd/3rd cent AD

just to get you started

 

[dallas123]

My point in the article is that most christians believe in a trinity that is composed of the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost, one God manifested in three different ways.

The LDS believe they are three separate persons, united in purpose, but three separate Gods.

We believe that we are saved by the grace of Christ, but we must keep the commandments of God. As we repent, Christ takes upon himself our sins so that we can become worthy to enter back into our Father in Heavens kingdom free of our sins.

Dallas Murdoch

 

[RebeccaJ]

My point in the article is that most christians believe in a trinity that is composed of the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost, one God manifested in three different ways.

No, this is not a description of the God we worship. This is a description of the heresy called modalism.

The LDS believe they are three separate persons, united in purpose, but three separate Gods.

We believe that we are saved by the grace of Christ, but we must keep the commandments of God. As we repent, Christ takes upon himself our sins so that we can become worthy to enter back into our Father in Heavens kingdom free of our sins.

Dallas Murdoch

Thank you, most Mormons here deny that you believe in three Gods.

Oh, and your repentance does not cause Jesus to take your sin upon himself, he did that on the cross. It’s already done, and you can never be worthy of what Jesus has done for you. He isn’t waiting for you to be worthy, he is just waiting for you. I pray that you seek him.

 

[Aramis]

No, this is not a description of the God we worship. This is a description of the heresy called modalism.

And borders on Arianism, as well.

Thank you, most Mormons here deny that you believe in three Gods.

lds.org/general-conference/2007/10/the-only-true-god-and-jesus-christ-whom-he-hath-sent?lang=eng clearly denies the Christian Trinity as defined at Nicea, and believed and taught by many of the early church fathers prior. It’s far less staunch in the separate gods approach than many of the things I’ve seen handed out by Mormom Missionaries, but it’s clear enough that Momons are polytheist.

 

[Porknpie]

My point in the article is that most christians believe in a trinity that is composed of the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost, one God manifested in three different ways.

The LDS believe they are three separate persons, united in purpose, but three separate Gods.

We believe that we are saved by the grace of Christ, but we must keep the commandments of God. As we repent, Christ takes upon himself our sins so that we can become worthy to enter back into our Father in Heavens kingdom free of our sins.

Dallas Murdoch

Dallas,

You missed answering my post #432…

How long have you been LDS? Have you ever been Catholic or a member of another Church…if so which one(s)?

 

[TexanKnight]

As an active member of the LDS church, I feel that referring to our church as a cult is inappropriate and reflects the person making that charge lack of understanding of the truth.

That is really not true. In fact, those of whom God led OUT od the LDS Church KNOW the truth about it.

We base our concept of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost on the vision of Joseph Smith in upstate New York in a sacred grove in 1820 as a 14 year old boy. He went there to ask God which church was the true one because he was confused and wanted to do what was right. He saw a vision in which God the Father and his son Jesus Christ appeared to him as two separate beings, with glorified bodies of flesh and bone. From this vision, Joseph knew that they were two separate beings and the Holy Ghost was a separate personage of spirit only.

Well, that really depends on which vision you use of his plethora of “first vision” accounts. In at least one of the accounts, only one personage was present.

The concept of the trinity comes from the Council of Nicea and other councils that God is three persons in one. This council was called in 325 AD by Constantine, a pagan leader of Rome. He wanted to make Christianity a state religion and was desirous that the christians agreed on some basic concepts including the nature God. It is this disagreement on the nature of God that we are referred to as a cult.

Actually, that is untrue. The doctrine always existed, but was formalized in 325. And this is NOT the reason you are referred to as a cult. It is your beliefs like God once being a sinful man. It is polygamy. It is the LDS god consistently changing his mind, etc.

I encourage everyone to read the Bible with the understanding that they are separate beings and all the occasions that the bible agrees with this concept. I also encourage everyone to pray and ask God for a knowledge of the truth and he will answer your prayer.

I did that and God led me out of the LDS Church and eventually into truth.

 

[TexanKnight]

It is true that errors were made in the translation of the Book of Mormon but none of them affect the truthfulness of the gospel contained in the book. The church has been active in identifying and correcting these errors in later printings.

That is not really true. There were MANY errors that was simply Joseph not paying attention as he plagiarized Then, there were errors like Joseph taching black would become white…so the B of M said “white and delightsome” When it became clear that was not happening, it was changed to “pure and delightsome”.

I encourage you to really study early doctrine and LDS history…

 

[TexanKnight]

My point in the article is that most christians believe in a trinity that is composed of the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost, one God manifested in three different ways.

The LDS believe they are three separate persons, united in purpose, but three separate Gods.

We believe that we are saved by the grace of Christ, but we must keep the commandments of God. As we repent, Christ takes upon himself our sins so that we can become worthy to enter back into our Father in Heavens kingdom free of our sins.

Dallas Murdoch

You also believe that god was once a sinful man and that you can become a god eventually. How does that work, exactly?

 

[Porknpie]

It is true that errors were made in the translation of the Book of Mormon but none of them affect the truthfulness of the gospel contained in the book. The church has been active in identifying and correcting these errors in later printings.

Dallas…

Science alone has shown that the BOM is false.

• No ancient civilizations (no human remains, chariots, swords, temples, elephants … etc)
• No great battle in Cumorah NY
• American Indians are from Asia

None of these are translation errors.

Also…there was no apostasy in the early Church. This would have made a Christ a liar. Scripture says that the church numbers grew “greatly” guided by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit that was sent to the Church to guide it in all Truth.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Dallas…

Science alone has shown that the BOM is false.

• No ancient civilizations (no human remains, chariots, swords, temples, elephants … etc)
• No great battle in Cumorah NY
• American Indians are from Asia

None of these are translation errors.

Also…there was no apostasy in the early Church. This would have made a Christ a liar. Scripture says that the church numbers grew “greatly” guided by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit that was sent to the Church to guide it in all Truth.

And none of the above issue’s are “EVER” addressed by the Mormons or LDS. The conversation is dead in the water at the above point. And it has been for “years”.

A history built on a foundation of sand is what I see, and that is imho.

 

[twopekinguys]

It is true that errors were made in the translation of the Book of Mormon but none of them affect the truthfulness of the gospel contained in the book. The church has been active in identifying and correcting these errors in later printings.

You mean like the different animals that are mentioned in the BoM, that couldn’t possibly have been there at that time. Like horses for example?

Want to talk about some changes in the BoM that show a doctrinal shift? Doctrinal shifts would affect the “truthfulness” would it not?

Some of the changes to the BoM which affect it doctrinally are:

From Alma 1830 version:
yea, I know that he alloteth unto men , yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable, according to their wills

Alma, latest version:
yea, I know that he alloteth unto men, according to their wills

Notice the part about unalterable is removed from the current version. Quite a doctrinal shift there, going from God doesn’t change his mind to God changes his mind.

I guess thats why he changed his mind on black and the priesthood.

There are also several changes to how the Trinity is viewed. These would count as doctrinal also wouldn’t you say?

1 Nephi, 1830 version:
And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh

1 Nephi, latest version:
And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God.

Notice how it went from Mother of God, to Mother of the Son of God. BIG doctrinal difference there wouldn’t you say?

Also, are you calling the BoM another “gospel”? Why on Earth would you say the BoM is another “gospel”?

I noticed you didn’t address the issue of 9 versions of the First Vision. Is there a reason?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Dallas…

Science alone has shown that the BOM is false.

• No ancient civilizations (no human remains, chariots, swords, temples, elephants … etc)
• No great battle in Cumorah NY
• American Indians are from Asia

None of these are translation errors.

Also…there was no apostasy in the early Church. This would have made a Christ a liar. Scripture says that the church numbers grew “greatly” guided by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit that was sent to the Church to guide it in all Truth.

Add, no evidence of a Judaic culture in the Americas. No contemporary writings, at all. None. In the so-called “reformed Egyptian”.

 

[Porknpie]

Add, no evidence of a Judaic culture in the Americas. No contemporary writings, at all. None. In the so-called “reformed Egyptian”.

Rebecca…the Book of Abraham… Fiction or non-fiction?