How is the LDS a cult?

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dallas123 said:
It is true that errors were made in the translation of the Book of Mormon but none of them affect the truthfulness of the gospel contained in the book. The church has been active in identifying and correcting these errors in later printings.
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I’m sure I am missing something here but how would anyone know if there were errors in the “translation” unless they had an original to go by, in this case the golden plates? How does one determine what is error and what is not in the Book of Mormon?
 
Come on back NeuroTypical.

We know you’ve been back online since your last post.

We are anxiously awaiting your response(s)
 
RebeccaJ said:
Fiction, if you want to call a scam a fiction. Personally, I think that is an insult to the fiction genre.
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I thought you were going to comment on the ancient Egyptian writing turning out to be a funeral text…

How does LDS defend this? Why don’t they throw the Book of Abraham away…? I don’t understand this…
 
Porknpie said:
I thought you were going to comment on the ancient Egyptian writing turning out to be a funeral text…

How does LDS defend this? Why don’t they throw the Book of Abraham away…? I don’t understand this…
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They can’t throw it away. They claim that the papyri were just a visual trigger for JS’s inspired teachings. You notice our friend shies away from even the BoM?
 
Porknpie said:
I thought you were going to comment on the ancient Egyptian writing turning out to be a funeral text…

How does LDS defend this? Why don’t they throw the Book of Abraham away…? I don’t understand this…
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Here are some mental gymnastics that may help answer your question.

This is another good one.
 
TexanKnight said:
In other words, “we know it is not true. We know Joseph lied about it, but believe it anyway…”
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Tex,

I’m still confused which …does happen. LDS rmembers read the Book of Abraham…knowing it is fiction? Knowing the Egyptian original writing was a funeral text?
 
Porknpie said:
Tex,

I’m still confused which …does happen. LDS rmembers read the Book of Abraham…knowing it is fiction? Knowing the Egyptian original writing was a funeral text?
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Most Mormons I have spoken to claim the Book of Abraham is true…and that the papyri used by Joseph…

Seems like everything he translated is missing…how convenient…
 
As per LDS belief God is changing, here are a few thoughts from Jurgens’ “The Faith of the Early Fathers” vol. 1 from very early days of the RCC

Aristides of Athens, fl. ca. AD 140:
“Let us proceed, then O King, to the elements themselves, so that we may demonstrate concerning them that they are not gods, but corruptible and changeable things, produced out of the non-existent by Him that is truly God, who is incorruptible and unchangeable and invisible, but who sees all things and changes them and alters them as He wills.”

Christianity, since it’s inception, has battled with many heresies. God did not or could never take on an actual corruptible or spiritual body or change in any way - if so he would simply cease to be “God”.

Aristides continues
"…Since then, they who continue to observe the righteousness which was preached by the disciples are called Christians. These are they who, above every people on earth, have found the truth; for they acknowledge God, the Creator and Maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit. Other than Him no god do they worship."

A timeless beautiful thought from so long ago. In religious terms, if you don’t know where you are or understand where you’ve come from or misunderstand the immense force and tradition of the RCC or who Christ is, you’re lacking!
 
More on God’s attributes; Jurgens’ notes Tatian writes with a heated pen:

Tatian the Syrian “Address to the Greeks” [ca. AD 165/175]
“Our God has no introduction in time. He is without beginning, and is Himself the beginning of all things. God is Spirit…” (Love this) “We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man.”

Athenagoras of Athens “Supplication for the Christians” [ca. AD 177] who spread more light with his pen than heat!
“For we do not conceive of either God the Father or the Son as do the poets, who, in their myth-making, represent gods as no better than men. The Son of God is the Word of the Father, thought and actuality. By Him and through Him all things were made, the Father and the Son being one. Since the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son by unity and the power of the Spirit, the Mind and the Word of the Father is the Son of God.”

"represent gods as no better than men" a problem reproduced many times by man-made sects as God changeth not.
 
Pepband_Mom said:
More on God’s attributes; Jurgens’ notes Tatian writes with a heated pen:

Tatian the Syrian “Address to the Greeks” [ca. AD 165/175]
“Our God has no introduction in time. He is without beginning, and is Himself the beginning of all things. God is Spirit…” (Love this) “We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man.”

Athenagoras of Athens “Supplication for the Christians” [ca. AD 177] who spread more light with his pen than heat!
“For we do not conceive of either God the Father or the Son as do the poets, who, in their myth-making, represent gods as no better than men. The Son of God is the Word of the Father, thought and actuality. By Him and through Him all things were made, the Father and the Son being one. Since the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son by unity and the power of the Spirit, the Mind and the Word of the Father is the Son of God.”

"represent gods as no better than men" a problem reproduced many times by man-made sects as God changeth not.
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Nice! 👍 Of course you are aware that the beautiful theology expressed above is based upon the philosophy of a people who had lost the truth they had been given just a few years prior and were wandering in the dark as a result of the “Great Apostasy.” :rolleyes:
 
TexanKnight said:
Kanuckistani;9221415:
Why do so many people believe the LDS is a cult?

Because of their beliefs and practices.
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I personally think otherwise.

Ok

How could a church with nearly 15 million members, be a cult?

By believing what they believe.

And I know some Mormons and they told me the church doesn’t dictate what they can and cannot do.

That is not entirely true. They dictate what you cannot eat and drink. They dictate if you can go to the temple (and by extension, heaven), they dictate what you think (if the prophet says, it MUST be accepted). There are other examples, but we will leave it to this.

Look at many Mormon politicians. They let their positions known and receive no criticism towards them from the LDS church. It’s not like Mormons are held on a leash or anything.

They really don’t. I have never heard Romney, for example, say anything about his Church’s belief that God was once a sinful man or that Satan and Jesus are brothers, or that Adam is our God, etc etc. They keep all that pretty hush hush

Also, the church has no charismatic or authoritarian leader, and I recently talked to a Mormon who told me they don’t worship any of their prophets (even Joseph Smith!). The current president seems like a genuinely nice, and democratic leader.

Their prophet is that very thing. What he says, GOES. As to worship…listen to some hymns about Joseph Smith, listen to talks at Sacrament Meeting. Listen to testimonies on Fast Sunday. See if you still believe they don’t

Here’s what a cult is defined as:
  1. A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
  2. A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
Well, they ARE relatively small compared to Catholics. but let me submit THIS to you.

I attended LDS Temple Ceremonies till 1989 (I am 51). In those ceremonies, we had secret handshakes and phrases that we had to SWEAR never to divulge. We took blood oaths that described how we were allow ourselves to be killed (there was more than one way we were to “suffer our lives to be taken”). Women had to swear strict obedience to their husbands. We would wear secret underwear (garments) with odd symbols on them. Looking back, it seems pretty cultish to me.

Also, I don’t want to come off as pro-Mormon or anti-Catholic (I love my Catholic faith). So lets keep this civil.

I do not dispute your faith. Just let me say, another sign of cults is how hard it is to leave. When I left, some Mormons tried to kidnap my children. I was harassed at all hours of the day and night with calls and visitors telling me I was going to hell. I admire your convictions, but having been LDS, I totally understand when someone calls it a cult.

Be Blessed

Magnificient breakdown TexanKnight. .:knight1:
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Porknpie said:
Living Waters -

Where are the remnants of the great nations of the Neophites and Lamanites? There is much archeological evidence of the Mayans for example, but none of these two great civilizations. :confused:

Also, where in church history is the total apostasy? :confused: There is no mention of this anywhere by the early church fathers. None. Just the opposite, the Catholic church grew from a mustard to the ends of the earth, clearly visible to all just like Christ said it would.

Your religion is made up by a man and can not be verified using the teachings of your church. :ehh:

Peace.
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Well said Porknpie: The fact that there was no Early Church apostasy is **the **key point. Mormonism fails miserably on that point. :knight1:
 
Hi All,

I’ve been reading this thread for a while and I noticed that one subject never seemed to come up: Blacks and the LDS church.

My understanding is that up until 1978 it was the church’s official doctrine to severely restricted members based on their race (as ‘revealed’ by your god to your prophet Brigham Young). This was reversed with a new revelation by your prophet Spencer Kimbell in 1978.

This revelation resulted in the following beliefs held for the majority of the LDS history:
  1. Blacks by nature of their race were excluded to LDS priesthoods
Statements by your prophet Brigham Young:

“The Lord had cursed Cain’s seed with blackness and prohibited them the Priesthood.” (Brigham Young, 1849)

“any man having one drop of the seed of [Cain] … in him cannot hold the priesthood and if no other Prophet ever spake it before I will say it now in the name of Jesus Christ I know it is true and others know it” (Brigham Young, 1852)
  1. Since priesthood is a fundamental step in the lives of LDS members, Blacks were thus not able to fully participate and be in communion with the LDS church and many temple ordinances.
Since this is historically the case, wouldn’t logic dictate that:

If you believe revelations to your prophets are from your god (specifically the revelations of the late 1840/1850s compared to the 1978 revelation which are diametrically opposed) would that make your god a:
  • a racist (since he excluded blacks from full communion because of their race); or
  • a flip-flop (since it took him 100+ years to realize the errors of his way and he only did when enough pressure from the civil rights movement threatened the church).
I mean the TRUE God is very consistent in his teachings. Frankly, we Catholics see everyday how this consistent teaching remains steady even with the pressures of modern society pushing against the Truth (i.e. abortion and gay marriage).

But the god of the LDS seems to be willing to backtrack when enough pressure is exerted on your church.

I would love to know what an LDS apologist says about this little conundrum?

God Bless all!
 
Pepband_Mom said:
LivingWaters7;9550441:
Latter-day Saints believe in and accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God and man.

Latter-day Saints reject the traditional doctrine of the Trinity. We believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are separate/distinct divine Persons who are united in purpose, love, and will, known as “the Godhead”.

By what you are saying here you believe in more than 1 god; you believe in 3 GODS. Was your theology derived from the benefit of biblical scholarship in earnest and truth, as in seeking out the learned Rabbis & Priests of the day? They would have learned the Jews LONG believed in ONE GOD. See the ancient Schema as in the Psalms “Hear, O Israel, the Lord thy God is one.” The Jews were aware of One God and One God only. LDS founders in essence, derailed on this issue nor would they WANT to know that. To consult with anyone in truth & earnest would be unthinkable and counter to their goals of promoting a self-made theology. My Jehovah’s Witness friend & I discussed the (ignorance of) Trinity & basically she said they agree with LDS!
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Latter-day Saints do accept the Bible. We study it, we have religious classes dedicated to studying it, it is referred to in our worship services (in addition to our other scriptures of course), etc.

IF lds “accept” the Bible, why have beliefs that clearly CONTRADICT it? For example, the Lord said “there is no marriage in heaven”. Why was it necessary to tube that clear, plain quote of Christ’s (Catholic Church did not change the straightforward meaning of) - it’s kind of an in your face issue isn’t it? Smith violated that clear, plain meaning of scripture - why? I would like you to answer this directly.

Sex & power go hand in hand, do they not, and this issue, which is disturbing to this day, continues with your altered theology of the afterlife. Start with a phony, man-made false premise, which all founders of sects do, so as to establish the need to restore, so as to promote such as the catastrophic notion of polygamy. :eek:

Also, an affront to: Jesus is the Bridegroom WE are the BRIDE, a thought they didn’t consider either. Jesus is and NEVER will be impure like your leaders. Don’t you teach Jesus had “wives” which, when you get down to it is PURE POISON!!! If that is the case, Our Savior is an adulterer which can never be. Please answer that one? How can the spotless, unblemished, pure Lamb of God be a sex fiend & chase after women? Please address that thought directly.

This crystal example is a clear, obvious, flat rejection of the Bible which to my estimation does NOT indicate LDS “accept” the Bible.

We do. We also believe that God has provided further revelation on the nature of the afterlife.

“God” provided this further revelation of the afterlife through a very troubled teenager with a record (with as Texan Knight says there are 9 versions of his story or to that effect an unclear picture of what really happened if I am not mistaken)???

Latter-day Saints reject the traditional notions of Heaven and Hell

NO ONE talks plainly & clearly more about hell than Christ did. What HE clearly, plainly says is GOSPEL. He clearly & plainly addresses heaven and hell. WHAT part of HELL don’t lds understand? Theological manipulations of the Bible are destructive - GOD is not nor never will be the author of confusion! He does not carefully advise the Jews, THEN send His DIVINE SON who is from HIM to suffer deicide at the hands of human beings, create HIS CHURCH which lds propose later failed so as to have many centuries later on the human scene have human beings twist and tamper with HIS WORD. Please address this issue directly.

Latter-day Saints believe that we are a restoration of Christ’s Church, with a restoration of His priesthood, as well as the restoration of various beliefs (as well as believing that God has provided further teachings and doctrines through continuing revelation to His prophets and apostles). While we reject certain traditional Christian doctrines, such as the Trinity, no more scripture, etc., we also have various similarities, chief among them is our belief in Jesus Christ as our divine Savior, and that it is only through His atoning sacrifice that we can receive eternal life.

I CLEARLY provided an example above which tubes your notion of a “restoration” especially such as that espoused by a convicted, troubled teenager. The eternal marriage, godhood and hell ideas are simply man-made. Promulgated doctrines lds promote are a 180 from CHRISTIANITY and a departure from the CLEAR, PLAIN MEANINGS of the Bible which is still protected and cherished by it’s AUTHOR, the RCC!

I smell the rat of COGNITIVE DISSONANCE!!!

Pepband Mom: One of the stronger points offered on this thread. Note no direct opposing response from LivingWaters7 - because there is none :knight1:.
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RebeccaJ said:
It’s what happens when you run on feelings. Reason, and even law, contrary to those feelings is ignored.

This is one of the more cultic aspects of Mormonism, IMO. Mormon teaching defines for people what their own feelings mean, rather than teaching the person to assess their own feelings and determine whether or not their feelings align to reality.

I can’t tell you the number of business meetings I’ve been with with LDS members where a (bad) decision is made based on feelings of a few, and relevant facts are completely ignored.

Romney’s unpreparedness for losing the pres. election I also see as a prime example of this. He believed God wanted him to be president, he felt it was his, and so he was unprepared for losing.

“We have a reason for running and it’s because — I believe in my heart that Mitt is going to save America. That, economically, we are in such difficult times, and that he is the person that’s going to pull us through this. I am stalwart and steadfast and positive and confident that still to this day, Mitt is the person who is going to save America.” -Ann Romney
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RebeccaJ: A very interesting perspective - one that would never get mentioned in post election media analysis - but probably true. This could partly explain why Romney just coasted after the first debate and eventually lost. I would argue that a less than expected Republican turnout was due in part to his Mormonism, although that also would never be mentoned in the media, nor show up in a Pew Research poll.:knight1:
 
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