How is the LDS a cult?

[kimg901]

One thing that might make them a cult is that if you do not pay your 10% then you are not allowed in their temples. Why would that be if its “Christs True Church”? Wouldnt everyone be allowed to attend?

 

[dberrie2000]

One thing that might make them a cult is that if you do not pay your 10% then you are not allowed in their temples.

How would that be any different than God not allowing anyone but those who obey Him in His kingdom?

 

[ofgodsandmen]

Hi All,

I’ve been reading this thread for a while and I noticed that one subject never seemed to come up: Blacks and the LDS church.

My understanding is that up until 1978 it was the church’s official doctrine to severely restricted members based on their race (as ‘revealed’ by your god to your prophet Brigham Young). This was reversed with a new revelation by your prophet Spencer Kimbell in 1978.

This revelation resulted in the following beliefs held for the majority of the LDS history:

1. Blacks by nature of their race were excluded to LDS priesthoods

Statements by your prophet Brigham Young:

“The Lord had cursed Cain’s seed with blackness and prohibited them the Priesthood.” (Brigham Young, 1849)

“any man having one drop of the seed of [Cain] … in him cannot hold the priesthood and if no other Prophet ever spake it before I will say it now in the name of Jesus Christ I know it is true and others know it” (Brigham Young, 1852)

1. Since priesthood is a fundamental step in the lives of LDS members, Blacks were thus not able to fully participate and be in communion with the LDS church and many temple ordinances.

Since this is historically the case, wouldn’t logic dictate that:

If you believe revelations to your prophets are from your god (specifically the revelations of the late 1840/1850s compared to the 1978 revelation which are diametrically opposed) would that make your god a:

• a racist (since he excluded blacks from full communion because of their race); or
• a flip-flop (since it took him 100+ years to realize the errors of his way and he only did when enough pressure from the civil rights movement threatened the church).

I mean the TRUE God is very consistent in his teachings. Frankly, we Catholics see everyday how this consistent teaching remains steady even with the pressures of modern society pushing against the Truth (i.e. abortion and gay marriage).

But the god of the LDS seems to be willing to backtrack when enough pressure is exerted on your church.

I would love to know what an LDS apologist says about this little conundrum?

God Bless all!

Excellent point. There is no reasonable Mormon answer for this conundrum.

Also not mentioned on the thread is the Mormon use of the King James Bible, which of course is missing the Deuterocannonical texts (Tobit, Maccabees, etc.). :knight1:

 

[TexanKnight]

Hi All,

I’ve been reading this thread for a while and I noticed that one subject never seemed to come up: Blacks and the LDS church.

My understanding is that up until 1978 it was the church’s official doctrine to severely restricted members based on their race (as ‘revealed’ by your god to your prophet Brigham Young). This was reversed with a new revelation by your prophet Spencer Kimbell in 1978.

This revelation resulted in the following beliefs held for the majority of the LDS history:

1. Blacks by nature of their race were excluded to LDS priesthoods

Statements by your prophet Brigham Young:

“The Lord had cursed Cain’s seed with blackness and prohibited them the Priesthood.” (Brigham Young, 1849)

“any man having one drop of the seed of [Cain] … in him cannot hold the priesthood and if no other Prophet ever spake it before I will say it now in the name of Jesus Christ I know it is true and others know it” (Brigham Young, 1852)

1. Since priesthood is a fundamental step in the lives of LDS members, Blacks were thus not able to fully participate and be in communion with the LDS church and many temple ordinances.

Since this is historically the case, wouldn’t logic dictate that:

If you believe revelations to your prophets are from your god (specifically the revelations of the late 1840/1850s compared to the 1978 revelation which are diametrically opposed) would that make your god a:

• a racist (since he excluded blacks from full communion because of their race); or
• a flip-flop (since it took him 100+ years to realize the errors of his way and he only did when enough pressure from the civil rights movement threatened the church).

I mean the TRUE God is very consistent in his teachings. Frankly, we Catholics see everyday how this consistent teaching remains steady even with the pressures of modern society pushing against the Truth (i.e. abortion and gay marriage).

But the god of the LDS seems to be willing to backtrack when enough pressure is exerted on your church.

I would love to know what an LDS apologist says about this little conundrum?

God Bless all!

it changed for financial reasons…like more than one of the big “revelations” has done. The LDS god seems to make a lot of decisions due to money.

 

[TexanKnight]

One thing that might make them a cult is that if you do not pay your 10% then you are not allowed in their temples. Why would that be if its “Christs True Church”? Wouldnt everyone be allowed to attend?

and if you do not go to the temple, you do not go to heaven.

So, you BUY your way into heaven

 

[dberrie2000]

Pepband Mom;9553968[COLOR="Purple":

By what you are saying here you believe in more than 1 god; you believe in 3 GODS. Was your theology derived from the benefit of biblical scholarship in earnest and truth, as in seeking out the learned Rabbis & Priests of the day? They would have learned the Jews LONG believed in ONE GOD.

Any Jew would tell you–and I would also–anyone who believes in a Trinity believes in three Gods–and is polytheistic by some standards of definition. Which one do you believe is not a God?

1. God the Father
2. God the Son
3. God the Holy Ghost

And there was only one God ever designated as the such in the NT:

1 Corinthians 8:6----King James Version (KJV)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and **one Lord Jesus Christ, **by whom are all things, and we by him.

IF lds “accept” the Bible, why have beliefs that clearly CONTRADICT it? For example, the Lord said “there is no marriage in heaven”. Why was it necessary to tube that clear, plain quote of Christ’s (Catholic Church did not change the straightforward meaning of) - it’s kind of an in your face issue isn’t it? Smith violated that clear, plain meaning of scripture - why? I would like you to answer this directly.

Does the Bible count as a direct answer?

Revelation 19:7-9----King James Version (KJV)

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and **his wife hath made herself ready.
**8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Is this marriage an eternal marriage in heaven?

 

[Nicea325]

Kanuckistani;9221415:

Why do so many people believe the LDS is a cult?

Because of their beliefs and practices.

I personally think otherwise.

Ok

How could a church with nearly 15 million members, be a cult?

By believing what they believe.

And I know some Mormons and they told me the church doesn’t dictate what they can and cannot do.

That is not entirely true. They dictate what you cannot eat and drink. They dictate if you can go to the temple (and by extension, heaven), they dictate what you think (if the prophet says, it MUST be accepted). There are other examples, but we will leave it to this.

Look at many Mormon politicians. They let their positions known and receive no criticism towards them from the LDS church. It’s not like Mormons are held on a leash or anything.

They really don’t. I have never heard Romney, for example, say anything about his Church’s belief that God was once a sinful man or that Satan and Jesus are brothers, or that Adam is our God, etc etc. They keep all that pretty hush hush

Also, the church has no charismatic or authoritarian leader, and I recently talked to a Mormon who told me they don’t worship any of their prophets (even Joseph Smith!). The current president seems like a genuinely nice, and democratic leader.

Their prophet is that very thing. What he says, GOES. As to worship…listen to some hymns about Joseph Smith, listen to talks at Sacrament Meeting. Listen to testimonies on Fast Sunday. See if you still believe they don’t

Here’s what a cult is defined as:

1. A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
2. A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.

Well, they ARE relatively small compared to Catholics. but let me submit THIS to you.

I attended LDS Temple Ceremonies till 1989 (I am 51). In those ceremonies, we had secret handshakes and phrases that we had to SWEAR never to divulge. We took blood oaths that described how we were allow ourselves to be killed (there was more than one way we were to “suffer our lives to be taken”). Women had to swear strict obedience to their husbands. We would wear secret underwear (garments) with odd symbols on them. Looking back, it seems pretty cultish to me.

Also, I don’t want to come off as pro-Mormon or anti-Catholic (I love my Catholic faith). So lets keep this civil.

I do not dispute your faith. Just let me say, another sign of cults is how hard it is to leave. When I left, some Mormons tried to kidnap my children. I was harassed at all hours of the day and night with calls and visitors telling me I was going to hell. I admire your convictions, but having been LDS, I totally understand when someone calls it a cult.

Be Blessed

Yeah! That seems very cultish to me. Harassing phone calls and telling your final destination? That in itself is mind control over others.

 

[dberrie2000]

1. Since priesthood is a fundamental step in the lives of LDS members, Blacks were thus not able to fully participate and be in communion with the LDS church and many temple ordinances.

Since this is historically the case, wouldn’t logic dictate that:

If you believe revelations to your prophets are from your god (specifically the revelations of the late 1840/1850s compared to the 1978 revelation which are diametrically opposed) would that make your god a:

• a racist (since he excluded blacks from full communion because of their race); or
• a flip-flop (since it took him 100+ years to realize the errors of his way and he only did when enough pressure from the civil rights movement threatened the church).

!

One question here:—was God a racist when He allowed only a small portion of people to hold the OT priesthood–and excluded others–or excluded the Gentiles from the promises?

Was the NT church racists when they disallowed the Gentile from partaking of the gospel–which they eventually changed?

 

[dberrie2000]

They really don’t. I have never heard Romney, for example, say anything about his Church’s belief that God was once a sinful man or that Satan and Jesus are brothers,They keep all that pretty hush hush

So–tell us more about the LDS belief that God was once a sinful man. I am anxious to hear that.

As far as satan and Jesus Christ being brothers–of course they are. All spirits have the same God and Father:

Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

If you believe there is another Father up there which Fathers spirits–please reveal Him to us.

 

[Nicea325]

One question here:—was God a racist when He allowed only a small portion of people to hold the OT priesthood–and excluded others–or excluded the Gentiles from the promises?

Was the NT church racists when they disallowed the Gentile from partaking of the gospel–which they eventually changed?

Racist or sexist? God calls men ONLY to the priesthood. All of us are in the universal priesthood,but not the ministering priesthood. Big difference.

 

[Porknpie]

Any Jew would tell you–and I would also–anyone who believes in a Trinity believes in three Gods–and is polytheistic by some standards of definition. Which one do you believe is not a God?

Catholics don’t ask Jews to affirm that Christ was the Messiah, whether the biblical canon of 73 books is right or wrong and we don’t ask them to approve the belief and understanding of the Trinity.

You can ask them about blacks in the priesthood, whether an ancient civilization traved to the Americas and whether the BoM is true…

 

[Nicea325]

So–tell us more about the LDS belief that God was once a sinful man. I am anxious to hear that.

As far as satan and Jesus Christ being brothers–of course they are. All spirits have the same God and Father:

Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

If you believe there is another Father up there which Fathers spirits–please reveal Him to us.

You misquoted me because I have never said those words.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dberrie2000
Any Jew would tell you–and I would also–anyone who believes in a Trinity believes in three Gods–and is polytheistic by some standards of definition. Which one do you believe is not a God?

Nope! You apparently have a prfound misunderstanding of the Trinity. It is three distinct people…1 God. God is 1 X 1 X 1 = 1.

God is not…1 + 1+ 1 = 3

 

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by RocketRM
2. Since priesthood is a fundamental step in the lives of LDS members, Blacks were thus not able to fully participate and be in communion with the LDS church and many temple ordinances.

Since this is historically the case, wouldn’t logic dictate that:

If you believe revelations to your prophets are from your god (specifically the revelations of the late 1840/1850s compared to the 1978 revelation which are diametrically opposed) would that make your god a:
a racist (since he excluded blacks from full communion because of their race); or
a flip-flop (since it took him 100+ years to realize the errors of his way and he only did when enough pressure from the civil rights movement threatened the church).

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 —One question here:—was God a racist when He allowed only a small portion of people to hold the OT priesthood–and excluded others–or excluded the Gentiles from the promises?

Was the NT church racists when they disallowed the Gentile from partaking of the gospel–which they eventually changed?

Racist or sexist?

Well–you added another --the question was racist. God did not allow Gentiles nor women to the priesthood–take your pick. The point is–if one implicates the LDS for failure to include all groups–then God and the NT disciples are also implicated.

God calls men ONLY to the priesthood. All of us are in the universal priesthood,but not the ministering priesthood. Big difference.

I agree–but that does not touch upon the question of being racist —if God does not allow the Gentiles into the priesthood–which was the charge Rocket seems to be making against the LDS for not allowing all to hold the priesthood. Neither did God–a smaller section yet, to be sure, in just a small portion of the House of Israel. Limited in a number of ways.

 

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
Any Jew would tell you–and I would also–anyone who believes in a Trinity believes in three Gods–and is polytheistic by some standards of definition. Which one do you believe is not a God?

1. God the Father
2. God the Son
3. God the Holy Ghost

Nope! You apparently have a prfound misunderstanding of the Trinity. It is three distinct people…1 God. God is 1 X 1 X 1 = 1.

God is not…1 + 1+ 1 = 3

Three personages as one God would be written as follows:

God, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

The only “one God” ever designated as such in the NT was this one:

1 Corinthians 8:6—King James Version (KJV)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

 

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Pepband Mom;9553968

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
Any Jew would tell you–and I would also–anyone who believes in a Trinity believes in three Gods–and is polytheistic by some standards of definition. Which one do you believe is not a God?

Catholics don’t ask Jews to affirm that Christ was the Messiah, whether the biblical canon of 73 books is right or wrong and we don’t ask them to approve the belief and understanding of the Trinity.

Pepband Mom’s post was in reference to what the Jews LONG believed. My post was also attached to what the Jews believe–that anyone who espouses the Trinity belief is polytheistic. I agree.

You can ask them about blacks in the priesthood,

But they would only tell you that if there is any blacks in the priesthood–that is a change from what God originally confirmed.

 

[Porknpie]

Pepband Mom’s post was in reference to what the Jews LONG believed. My post was also attached to what the Jews believe–that anyone who espouses the Trinity belief is polytheistic. I agree…

Then you agree to a wrong definition of polytheism and/or possibly do not accept or understand the definition of the Trinity.

Definition of POLYTHEISM. : belief in or worship of more than one god

Definition of TRINITY : the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma

 

[dberrie2000]

They really don’t. I have never heard Romney, for example, say anything about his Church’s belief that God was once a sinful man or that Satan and Jesus are brothers,

So–tell us more about the LDS belief that God was once a sinful man. I am anxious to hear that.

As far as satan and Jesus Christ being spirit brothers–of course they are. All spirits have the same God and Father:

Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

If you believe there is another Father up there which Fathers spirits–please reveal Him to us.

 

[dberrie2000]

Definition of POLYTHEISM. : belief in or worship of more than one god

So–you don’t believe in more than one god? What don’t you believe about the scriptures?

John 10:34-35—King James Version (KJV)

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

 

[JustaServant]

dberrie2000,
Simple question.
Is Jesus God?