How is the LDS a cult?

[Porknpie]

The fact is–the early church practiced exclusivism–which did not even include the Gentiles. There was a change of that practice of exclusivism in what is thought of to be about 20 years after the ascension of Christ. The Jews reached out and included the Gentiles. Just who, and what their descent was–I do not know.

Dberrie -

What year do you believe Christ died? AD what?

 

[zaffiroborant]

That the early NT siants excluded the Gentiles in taking them the gospel of Christ?

Are you saying that was not the will of Christ?

Christ speaks his will quite clearly in these scriptures.

Matt 29:18* And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19* Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20* teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Mark 16:15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation.

Luke23:45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, 46* and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47* and that** repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations**, * beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49* And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high.”

 

[fordhamstudent]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints since the suppression of polygamy has tried very hard to appear to be perceived as a Christian Church rather than a new religion. Trends point to the LDS Church eventually re-evaluating its teachings in order to become more orthodox–a process the RLDS Church now the Community of Christ went through. A Church that votes on doctrine based on public perception will eventually fully assimilate to the dominant religion which in the US is orthodox Christianity and those whose Churches and ecclesial communities that profess the creeds of the Church. The LDS Church we see now will be radically different in the next 50 years and more like an evangelical Christian Church --if it does not in fact totally repudiate its erroneous teaching like the Worldwide Church of God did in the early 90’s.

 

[batman1973]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints since the suppression of polygamy has tried very hard to appear to be perceived as a Christian Church rather than a new religion. Trends point to the LDS Church eventually re-evaluating its teachings in order to become more orthodox–a process the RLDS Church now the Community of Christ went through. A Church that votes on doctrine based on public perception will eventually fully assimilate to the dominant religion which in the US is orthodox Christianity and those whose Churches and ecclesial communities that profess the creeds of the Church. The LDS Church we see now will be radically different in the next 50 years and more like an evangelical Christian Church --if it does not in fact totally repudiate its erroneous teaching like the Worldwide Church of God did in the early 90’s.

The Community of Christ has become a very liberal church. They do, however still retain the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants as scripture. The Utah LDS may at some point lose it’s Restoration heritage, but, it will suffer splintering much like the RLDS did. There will always be those who believe in Joseph’s Myth.

 

[fordhamstudent]

I agree with you on the point that more schisms are down the road for the LDS Church. I remember when I first read the Book of Mormon that I could immediately tell it was a patch job. The missionaries used to tell me to ask the Holy Ghost to confirm the truth contained in the Book of Mormon, but I retorted that good ole’ Joseph had put quotes from the Bible in there so of course the Spirit was going to confirm that truth, but not necessarily the Book of Mormon and some people confuse that validation with the whole book itself or some just have an overactive imagination. I could never join that religion because it was founded on such a text–which is plainly the work of Joseph and not the scripture of the people of God in the ancient Americas.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

The Community of Christ has become a very liberal church. They do, however still retain the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants as scripture. The Utah LDS may at some point lose it’s Restoration heritage, but, it will suffer splintering much like the RLDS did. There will always be those who believe in Joseph’s Myth.

Splintering effect is huge with man-made sects - Smith’s invention has split into 40 + groups I read somewhere…

SO MUCH FOR TRUTH & UNITY

 

[StevieD]

your reporting the highlighted in red stats as facts was questioned–you reported that you got that from youtube.

no, i did not report getting anything from youtube

 

[TexanKnight]

Of there is one sect per First Vision version and one for each doctrinal change, there will be many, many sects…

 

[DarrinP]

I seem to remember a discussion I had with a good friend a few years back, concerning cults. And I see that most people state on this thread that ALL religions would technically fall into the definiton of a cult. And I think the modern definition would allow that any group that follows the teachings or philosophies of any one person(or perhaps group of people) would be considered a cult. And that seems to be the case if you read the modern definiton that most people know. This has been stated many times in this thread already, and so be it. And people usually DO use the word “cult” as an insult word to discredit a group of believers. But, let’s forget that for now.

This friend of mine had taken some type of religion course in college and one thing he remembered hearing from his professor concerning what makes a group a religious “cult” is that it imitates the original(the original being the TRUTH,and so not a cult). So then Christianty is the Truth, by our understanding as Christians(anyone who accepts the all the basic tenets of Christ and who and what He is), and any individual who uses the name of, or some of the teachnings of, or the image of Jesus Christ, and forms their own following based on some of these ideas and intermixes their own ideas and theologies but does not fully accept the basic tenets of The Lord Jesus Christ has created a “Christian Cult”. And it IS Christian Cults that we’re talking about here. So, you’re really following the teachings and beliefs of this individual person, or group of persons, as opposed to Christ himself and his ordained apostles.

Cult = immitation of the original. (whatever that may be) in this case, Christianity. And, by the way, I’m not here to insult the Mormons or any other group. I was just going for the definition of cult that it seems to me, many people may not be aware of. I never knew this until this particular talk with my good friend.**

 

[maltmom]

Just posting to subscribe to the thread.

 

[Aramis]

Just posting to subscribe to the thread.

You can subscribe without posting using the “thread tools” menu at the top of a thread’s page.

@Darr(name removed by moderator):

Keep in mind - the LDS pretty much ignore the canonical definitions of Christianity - many LDS cite the Ecumenical Councils as proof of the supposed “Great Apostasy” - and yet, the LDS are governed by a council of senior bishops* which supposedly is guided by the Holy Spirit to select a new prophet… sure sounds like a close and dark mirror of a papal election.

There’s a reason Tritheism ceased to be taught - it was revealed to be false to the councils, revealed by the holy spirit.
There’s a reason Gnosticism died out - it was revealed to the councils to be false, revealed by the Holy Spirit.

In both cases, many of the adherents’ hearts and minds were moved in council, and they came over to Trinitarian Orthodox Belief…

And as for the councils… the LDS themselves are run by councils

*Of course, what a Mormon bishop is is a rather different thing than a proper Catholic or Orthodox bishop, or even a Lutheran, Episcopalian or Methodist bishop, either. But still, all of the LDS apostles have been bishops or high priests. And the quorums of the first presidency, the 12, and the 70 use conciliarity in the leading of the LDS church…

 

[dberrie2000]

I seem to remember a discussion I had with a good friend a few years back, concerning cults. And I see that most people state on this thread that ALL religions would technically fall into the definiton of a cult. And I think the modern definition would allow that any group that follows the teachings or philosophies of any one person(or perhaps group of people) would be considered a cult. And that seems to be the case if you read the modern definiton that most people know. This has been stated many times in this thread already, and so be it. And people usually DO use the word “cult” as an insult word to discredit a group of believers. But, let’s forget that for now.

This friend of mine had taken some type of religion course in college and one thing he remembered hearing from his professor concerning what makes a group a religious “cult” is that it imitates the original(the original being the TRUTH,and so not a cult). So then Christianty is the Truth, by our understanding as Christians(anyone who accepts the all the basic tenets of Christ and who and what He is), and any individual who uses the name of, or some of the teachnings of, or the image of Jesus Christ, and forms their own following based on some of these ideas and intermixes their own ideas and theologies but does not fully accept the basic tenets of The Lord Jesus Christ has created a “Christian Cult”. And it IS Christian Cults that we’re talking about here. So, you’re really following the teachings and beliefs of this individual person, or group of persons, as opposed to Christ himself and his ordained apostles.

Cult = immitation of the original. (whatever that may be) in this case, Christianity. And, by the way, I’m not here to insult the Mormons or any other group. I was just going for the definition of cult that it seems to me, many people may not be aware of. I never knew this until this particular talk with my good friend.**

Would this qualify as the such?

1 Corinthians 4:15-16----King James Version (KJV)

15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

 

[dberrie2000]

I just explained how it is that the Mormon Church requires people to pay money to get into heaven. You didn’t not disagree with my facts. You did equate money with baptism. Do Mormons require payment for baptism, too?

Paying money to get into heaven is not the will of Christ.

I was equating requiring obedience in order to receive of God’s grace unto life eternal. If you wanted a money example:

Malachi 3:8-10----King James Version (KJV)

8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

 

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 —I was not referring to any verse–but what you posted above —embolden in red.

And what has that to do with the fact that you have been asked to support your statement of how the LDS church goes about making people “pay” in order to enter heaven?

The question was mine–not yours. And you have not answered it–what evidence do you have to support your claim that the LDS church is “making you pay to enter heaven”? By what means? How? By what agent?

I just explained how it is that the Mormon Church requires people to pay money to get into heaven.

But requiring and “making you pay to enter heaven” is two different approaches. God requires obedience–but He does not “make” anyone to be so.

You didn’t not disagree with my facts.

First–you will have to explain how you believe the LDS are made to pay tithes, in order to establish that they are “facts”.

You did equate money with baptism.

I equate obedience to Jesus Christ in both baptism and paying tithes–and both a requirement for His grace.

Do Mormons require payment for baptism, too?

If you are referring to money–no. If you are referring to an obedience–yes.

Paying money to get into heaven is not the will of Christ.

Money cannot buy entrance into heaven–but obedience to God’s laws will bring forth the blessings of heaven–and God does give His grace to those who obey Him.

When Naaman was commanded to wash in the river Jordan to heal his leporsy, his argument could have been that water does not heal leporsy. Or if he was required to pay tithes–then he could have made the argument that money does not heal leporsy. And your argument seems to run along those lines.

Malachi 3:8-10----King James Version (KJV)

8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

 

[dberrie2000]

Wrong. You are, in a typically silly LDS tactic, trying to compare the culture of 3000 years ago in a different continent with 1830s America. Your church, with the god who was once a sinful man, was racist.

Site, please. Where do you find any LDS doctrine that describes God as a sinful man?

When I have a chance, I will post thehorrible things your alleged prophets said about blacks unless another of my warriors can do it for me. We will see if they sound god-like

A couple of points, here, Texan. One–quoting someone with racist views does not in any way change the fact that God had a priesthood that was exclusive to only a small group of people–or that God chose just a few to be the House of Israel in the OT–and the rexcepients of His special blessings, endemic to those few.

Secondly–I don’t believe you want to engage in digging up uncomfortable history–I believe I could dig up “horrible things” concerning the Catholic church, and Protestants, that goes far beyond racist views, which was probably a common view held at that time.

 

[Porknpie]

Site, please. Where do you find any LDS doctrine that describes God as a sinful man?

A couple of points, here, Texan. One–quoting someone with racist views does not in any way change the fact that God had a priesthood that was exclusive to only a small group of people–or that God chose just a few to be the House of Israel in the OT–and the rexcepients of His special blessings, endemic to those few.

Secondly–I don’t believe you want to engage in digging up uncomfortable history–I believe I could dig up “horrible things” concerning the Catholic church, and Protestants, that goes far beyond racist views, which was probably a common view held at that time.

Dberrie-

You missed my post 593.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
The fact is–the early church practiced exclusivism–which did not even include the Gentiles. There was a change of that practice of exclusivism in what is thought of to be about 20 years after the ascension of Christ. The Jews reached out and included the Gentiles. Just who, and what their descent was–I do not know.

What year do you believe Christ died?

 

[Stephen168]

First–you will have to explain how you believe the LDS are made to pay tithes, in order to establish that they are “facts”.

These are my facts:

Post #477 says:
-Heaven requires a temple recommend.
-A Temple recommend requires paying tithing.
-Tithing is money collected by the Mormon Church.
-Therefore; you have to pay money to get to heaven.

All you have to do is deny them one by one. Let me help:

Does the Mormon Church teach that a temple recommend is required to get into heaven?
Does the Mormon Church require a member to pay tithing to get receive a temple recommend?

But requiring and “making you pay to enter heaven” is two different approaches. God requires obedience–but He does not “make” anyone to be so.

Explain the difference between make and **require **in Mormonism?
Include how that changes the facts and/or the conclusion.

 

[LivingWaters7]

These are my facts:

All you have to do is deny them one by one. Let me help:

Does the Mormon Church teach that a temple recommend is required to get into heaven?
Does the Mormon Church require a member to pay tithing to get receive a temple recommend?

I will let dberrie respond, however let us be clear about your “facts”:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that there are various Degrees of Glory in Heaven. The highest is the Celestial Kingdom, where the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost dwell eternally. To return to the Celestial Kingdom, to dwell in God’s presence for eternity, the Church of Jesus Christ teaches that one must exercise faith in Jesus Christ, accepting Him as their Lord and Savior, repent of their sins, be baptized by God’s priesthood authority, receive the Holy Ghost, and endure to the end.

Within the Celestial Kingdom, there are varying degrees of glory as well. The highest is “exaltation”, becoming joint-heirs with Christ, becoming like God (i.e. gods). To receive this blessing from God, one enters into various other covenants with God. One of them is the Endowment, and another is Sealing, or eternal marriage. Since these sacred rites are performed in our temples, one needs a “temple recommend” that allows them to enter the House of the Lord. This recommend is given after meeting with church leaders (the bishop and the stake president), who help the Latter-day Saint examine themselves as to how they are living the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They are asked whether they believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, in Christ’s atoning sacrifice, in the restoration of the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, if they sustain the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ, etc. They are also asked whether they are following various commandments of God, such as the Law of Chastity, the Word of Wisdom, and the Law of Tithing.

So, for Latter-day Saints, the Law of Tithing is but one example of a commandment of God that we follow in obedience to God (the Law of Tithing seems to be frequently separated from other commandments Latter-day Saints follow by critics, as if it is in isolation. For actual Latter-day Saints, it isn’t. It is but one of many ways that we show obedience and sacrifice to God and love for Him). Also, if a Latter-day Saint has no income (this happens many times with students, homeless, disadvantaged individuals and families, etc), naturally they would have nothing to tithe. They would not be denied a temple recommend (of course). I myself have experienced this.

So, to be clear, a temple recommend (or more precisely and factually, the Endowment and Sealing ordinances) is not required to return to the eternal presence of God in the Celestial Kingdom (so no, it is not required for Heaven). The Endowment and Sealing temple ordinances are required to receive the grace of exaltation, the highest degree of glory granted by God’s merciful grace, in the Celestial Kingdom.

 

[dberrie2000]

Dberrie-You missed my post 593.What year do you believe Christ died?

Sorry–I just missed it. If history proves to be true–it is thought to have occurred circa A.D 30?

I have no reason to doubt that.

 

[RebeccaJ]

So, to be clear, a temple recommend (or more precisely and factually, the Endowment and Sealing ordinances) is not required to return to the eternal presence of God in the Celestial Kingdom (so no, it is not required for Heaven). The Endowment and Sealing temple ordinances are required to receive the grace of exaltation, the highest degree of glory granted by God’s merciful grace, in the Celestial Kingdom.

Is any Mormon taught by the LDS church to strive for anything less than godhood?