How is the LDS a cult?

[dberrie2000]

These are my facts:

All you have to do is deny them one by one. Let me help:

Does the Mormon Church teach that a temple recommend is required to get into heaven?

Does the Mormon Church require a member to pay tithing to get receive a temple recommend?

Explain the difference between make and **require **in Mormonism?

Free agency. If one is made to do it–they have no choice. If one is required to do it–they have a choice.

Include how that changes the facts and/or the conclusion.

One may not choose to do it, if required. One will do it, if made to do so.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Free agency. If one is made to do it–they have no choice. If one is required to do it–they have a choice.

One may not choose to do it, if required. One will do it, if made to do so.

coercion :
the act of compelling by force of authority.

 

[dberrie2000]

Is any Mormon taught by the LDS church to strive for anything less than godhood?

The LDS teach principles that bring us back to God’s throne:

Revelation 3:21—King James Version (KJV)

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The question might become, for some–who are those who sit on the throne of God?

For me, and the LDS I know–becoming gods is not part of our vocabulary–although most LDS would relate exaltation with sons of God.

Most of the ECF might agree:

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book5, preface:

For it is thus that thou wilt both controvert them in a legitimate manner, and wilt be prepared to receive the proofs brought forward against them, casting away their doctrines as filth by means of the celestial faith; but following the only true and stedfast Teacher, the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, **become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself. **

 

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 —Free agency. If one is made to do it–they have no choice. If one is required to do it–they have a choice.

One may not choose to do it, if required. One will do it, if made to do so.

coercion :
the act of** compelling by force** of authority.

And for me–**compelling by force" **–is not part of free agency.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The LDS teach principles that bring us back to God’s throne:

Revelation 3:21—King James Version (KJV)

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The question might become, for some–who are those who sit on the throne of God?

For me, and the LDS I know–becoming gods is not part of our vocabulary–although most LDS would relate exaltation with sons of God.

Most all of the ECF might agree:

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book5, preface:

For it is thus that thou wilt both controvert them in a legitimate manner, and wilt be prepared to receive the proofs brought forward against them, casting away their doctrines as filth by means of the celestial faith; but following the only true and stedfast Teacher, the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, **become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself. **

Avoiding the subject and answering something I didn’t ask is very cult like, don’t you think?

 

[Porknpie]

Sorry–I just missed it. If history proves to be true–it is thought to have occurred circa A.D 30?

I have no reason to doubt that.

Ok great DB. Actually there is controversy because of the calendar changes on when Christ was born and died. This would be a good thread to start. The boundary dates of his death were between 27ad and 33ad.

But consider this… It is clear that St. Paul was converted in 35AD.
(see newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm )

And Acts 8:1 says the Church scattered throughout Samaria when Saul consented to the death of Stephen. And this occurred no later than 35AD.

1 Now Saul was consenting to his execution. On that day, there broke out a severe persecution of the church in Jerusalem, and all were scattered throughout the countryside of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.
2 Devout men buried Stephen and made a loud lament over him.

So simple math supports the preaching of the Gospel by the early church to the gentiles between 2 and 8 years after the death of Christ. This assumes that Stephen was stoned also in 35ad and not earlier. If Stephen died in 34ad and Christ died in 33 ad then it is as close as one year.

I’m not sure how you say it took 20 years?

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
The fact is–the early church practiced exclusivism–which did not even include the Gentiles. There was a change of that practice of exclusivism in what is thought of to be about 20 years after the ascension of Christ. The Jews reached out and included the Gentiles. Just who, and what their descent was–I do not know.

 

[RebeccaJ]

And for me–**compelling by force" **–is not part of free agency.

Lets discuss double bind.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind#Explanation

A hallmark of Mormonism, and very cult like in practice.

Mormonism teaches, pay tithing or God will punish you. This punishment includes, being burned as stubble, removal of God’s presence, and stunting personal growth (progression).

This is the primary injunction, “If you want to be a god, you must pay tithing.”

The secondary injunction is, “You must pay tithing, but only if you want to.”

If a person doesn’t want to pay tithing, for any reason, even financial strain on a family, there is no way to resolve the two conflicting injunctions. This is called a double bind, and is used by a person (or people) in authority to control.

It is not a example of free will, but one of coercion, which is a mark of a cult.

 

[dberrie2000]

Ok great DB. Actually there is controversy because of the calendar changes on when Christ was born and died. This would be a good thread to start. The boundary dates of his death were between 27ad and 33ad.

But consider this… It is clear that St. Paul was converted in 35AD.
(see newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm )

And Acts 8:1 says the Church scattered throughout Samaria when Saul consented to the death of Stephen. And this occurred no later than 35AD.

1 Now Saul was consenting to his execution. On that day, there broke out a severe persecution of the church in Jerusalem, and all were scattered throughout the countryside of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.
2 Devout men buried Stephen and made a loud lament over him.

So simple math supports the preaching of the Gospel by the early church to the gentiles between 2 and 8 years after the death of Christ. This assumes that Stephen was stoned also in 35ad and not earlier. If Stephen died in 34ad and Christ died in 33 ad then it is as close as one year.

I’m not sure how you say it took 20 years?

I believe I stated—“There was a change of that practice of exclusivism in what is thought of to be about 20 years after the ascension of Christ.”

The actual practice, which some of the sources give–is the first proselyting mission of Paul to the Gentiles–which is thought to have occurred around A.D.48.

That is about 20 years–or some so believe. The first Gentile convert was given, in some references–as 40 A.D.

So–why would the Apostles wait twenty years to send out a proselyting mission to the Gentiles?

Why did it take Peter years to recognize that the Gentiles were to be included in the gospel?
What exclusiveism did Peter harbor that prevented Him from seeing that sooner?

Seeing that the Apostles were with Christ 40 days following His resurrection–why the confusion about the gospel being exclusive to the natural House of Israel? Surely–God had some specific instruction for His apostles concerning that. Why did Peter have to realize that in Acts10–years following the Ascension? If you use the earliest date of your time line–that is 13 years following the Ascension. And still yet—years later before the proselyting missions to the Gentiles.

BTW–a Merry Christmas to you–and I have enjoyed our conversation. I am a little direct in my writing–but I grew up with an Army Major as dad. Sorry.

 

[dberrie2000]

Lets discuss double bind.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind#Explanation

A hallmark of Mormonism, and very cult like in practice.

Mormonism teaches, pay tithing or God will punish you. This punishment includes, being burned as stubble, removal of God’s presence, and stunting personal growth (progression).

God teaches that all will be judged according to works–and that for life or damnation:

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So–is that “cult like” --in your opinion?

 

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 ----The LDS teach principles that bring us back to God’s throne:

Revelation 3:21—King James Version (KJV)

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The question might become, for some–who are those who sit on the throne of God?

For me, and the LDS I know–becoming gods is not part of our vocabulary–although most LDS would relate exaltation with sons of God.

Most all of the ECF might agree:

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book5, preface:

For it is thus that thou wilt both controvert them in a legitimate manner, and wilt be prepared to receive the proofs brought forward against them, casting away their doctrines as filth by means of the celestial faith; but following the **only true and stedfast Teacher, the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself. **

Avoiding the subject and answering something I didn’t ask is very cult like, don’t you think?

It’s my opinion that when people look through jaunticed eyes–they always see yellow.

 

[Porknpie]

Dberrie -

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
I believe I stated—“There was a change of that practice of exclusivism in what is thought of to be about 20 years after the ascension of Christ.”

Dberrie…“exclusivism” or the Church was guided by the Holy Spirit as Christ himself promised? (Acts 14)

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

And the Holy Spirit working through St. Peter:

14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15 The two went down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit 16 (for as yet the Spirit had not come[c] upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus). 17 **Then Peter and John laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit **

And here we can see St. Peter again being guided by God in a dream (Acts 10)

9 About noon the next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat; and while it was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw the heaven opened and something like a large sheet coming down, being lowered to the ground by its four corners. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed creatures and reptiles and birds of the air. 13 Then he heard a voice saying, “Get up, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is profane or unclean.” 15 The voice said to him again, a second time, “What God has made clean, you must not call profane.” 16 This happened three times, and the thing was suddenly taken up to heaven.

And the Spirit was still leading St. Peter.

19 While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Look, three[a] men are searching for you

28 and he said to them, “You yourselves know that it is unlawful for a Jew to associate with or to visit a Gentile; but God has shown me that I should not call anyone profane or unclean.

Guiding him.

34 Then Peter began to speak to them: “I truly understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. 36 You know the message he sent to the people of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ—he is Lord of all

The Holy Spirit descending on the gentiles.

44 While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard the word. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,

So–why would the Apostles wait twenty years to send out a proselyting mission to the Gentiles?

Because the Holy Spirit was in charge…guiding the Church to complete the mission to proclaim the Gospel as God wanted. Remember…no NT bible yet…all Gospel by the Oral Word.

And what was the fruit of the Holy Spirit being in charge?

Acts 12:24 But the word of God continued to advance and gain adherents. 25 Then after completing their mission Barnabas and Saul returned to[a] Jerusalem and brought with them John, whose other name was Mark.

Acts 2:47 And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Acts 6:7 So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.

Acts 9:31 Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace and was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it increased in numbers.

Acts 19:20 So the word of the Lord grew mightily and prevailed.

DBerrie, do you think your plan for growing God’s Church was better?

 

[dberrie2000]

Dberrie -

Dberrie…“exclusivism” or the Church was guided by the Holy Spirit as Christ himself promised? (Acts 14)

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

And the Holy Spirit working through St. Peter:

14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15 The two went down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit 16 (for as yet the Spirit had not come[c] upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus). 17 **Then Peter and John laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit **

And here we can see St. Peter again being guided by God in a dream (Acts 10)

9 About noon the next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat; and while it was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw the heaven opened and something like a large sheet coming down, being lowered to the ground by its four corners. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed creatures and reptiles and birds of the air. 13 Then he heard a voice saying, “Get up, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is profane or unclean.” 15 The voice said to him again, a second time, “What God has made clean, you must not call profane.” 16 This happened three times, and the thing was suddenly taken up to heaven.

And the Spirit was still leading St. Peter.

19 While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Look, three[a] men are searching for you

28 and he said to them, “You yourselves know that it is unlawful for a Jew to associate with or to visit a Gentile; but God has shown me that I should not call anyone profane or unclean.

Guiding him.

34 Then Peter began to speak to them: “I truly understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. 36 You know the message he sent to the people of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ—he is Lord of all

The Holy Spirit descending on the gentiles.

44 While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard the word. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,

Because the Holy Spirit was in charge…guiding the Church to complete the mission to proclaim the Gospel as God wanted. Remember…no NT bible yet…all Gospel by the Oral Word.

And what was the fruit of the Holy Spirit being in charge?

Acts 12:24 But the word of God continued to advance and gain adherents. 25 Then after completing their mission Barnabas and Saul returned to[a] Jerusalem and brought with them John, whose other name was Mark.

Acts 2:47 And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Acts 6:7 So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.

Acts 9:31 Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace and was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it increased in numbers.

Acts 19:20 So the word of the Lord grew mightily and prevailed.

I don’t disagree with any of this–but it still indicates that the Gentiles were brought into the Gospel of Christ years after the Ascension.

DBerrie, do you think your plan for growing God’s Church was better?

I don’t have a plan–other than trying to follow Christ, and do His will.

 

[Stephen168]

Free agency. If one is made to do it–they have no choice. If one is required to do it–they have a choice.

One may not choose to do it, if required. One will do it, if made to do so.

It seems you still do not have a problem with my facts even if they do presuppose a desire for heaven.

I am a little direct in my writing–but I grew up with an Army Major as dad.

If that were true, I would think you would answer the questions that were asked.

Does the Mormon Church teach that a temple recommend is required to get into heaven?
Does the Mormon Church require a member to pay tithing to get receive a temple recommend?

Is any Mormon taught by the LDS church to strive for anything less than godhood?

 

[Porknpie]

I don’t disagree with any of this–but it still indicates that the Gentiles were brought into the Gospel of Christ years after the Ascension.

I don’t have a plan–other than trying to follow Christ, and do His will.

Dberrie, you seem unconvinced that the Holy Spirit was guiding Christ’s church and that scripture is both the inspired and infallible written Word of God. There’s not much more than I can add. Perhaps others can…

Still, a Merry Christmas Eve

Pork

 

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 —I don’t disagree with any of this–but it still indicates that the Gentiles were brought into the Gospel of Christ years after the Ascension.

I don’t have a plan–other than trying to follow Christ, and do His will.

Dberrie, you seem unconvinced that the Holy Spirit was guiding Christ’s church

Not unconvinced at all–quite to the contrary. How does the fact that I believe the Gentiles were brought into the gospel years after the Ascension bring you to that conclusion?

and that scripture is both the inspired and infallible written Word of God. There’s not much more than I can add. Perhaps others can…

Still, a Merry Christmas Eve

Pork

And a Merry Christmas to you!

 

[Stephen168]

The fact is–the early church practiced exclusivism–which did not even include the Gentiles. There was a change of that practice of exclusivism in what is thought of to be about 20 years after the ascension of Christ. The Jews reached out and included the Gentiles. Just who, and what their descent was–I do not know.

There was no reason for Christians to be exclusive. Christ died for the sins of all mankind, because all mankind is equal. Mormons taught blacks were not equal and therefore they could not hold the mormon priesthood; very racist.

The Priesthood of Christianity NEVER excluded people because of their race; that is the will of Christ.

 

[Porknpie]

Dberrie, you seem unconvinced that the Holy Spirit was guiding Christ’s church and that scripture is both the inspired and infallible written Word of God. There’s not much more than I can add. Perhaps others can…

Still, a Merry Christmas Eve

Pork

Dberrie, I apologize, I misread your double negative…I thought you said you didn’t believe any it. Where the apostles went, to whom and when is a management issue. The Church was being led by the Holy Spirit to all knowledge and truth. You’ll have to ask God.

But management is clear that the Church was guided by the Spirit and that the Church numbers grew greatly. Again, you’ll have to take up with God if there was a better way to grow his Church.

Analogy- The link below is the chronology of LDS temple building. I read that LDS never built a temple in Nebraska until 2001, it being the 104th temple built. So I could say this is Exclusivism…that LDS ignored Nebraskans for over 100 years, even building temples in close to 20 countries outside of the USA. But in reality, I believe it to be a management issue…

ldschurchtemples.com/chronological/

 

[kimg901]

Of course it took years for Peter to reach out to the Gentiles. He didnt have the internet or a car If you look at the vast region he had to travel and most of it by foot, I would think it would take some time for him or any of the other apostles to get from point A to point B. Merry Christmas everyone !!!

 

[GaryTaylor]

What does this Godhood consist of in the LDS? Is it true the belief is that one is granted the exalted privilege of seeing Joe Smith first in the heaven of this Godhood?

Why do follower’s need to be milk-fed the truth? Isn’t this just another method of mind control? Sounds like the Stockholm syndrome in full effect.

Still no historical artifacts from 4-6AD? Not even a bone, knife, nothing? If everyone is so sure this occurred, why isn’t anyone out here in the USA looking to uncover these artifacts?

 

[TexanKnight]

But requiring and “making you pay to enter heaven” is two different approaches. God requires obedience–but He does not “make” anyone to be so.

First–you will have to explain how you believe the LDS are made to pay tithes, in order to establish that they are “facts”.

I equate obedience to Jesus Christ in both baptism and paying tithes–and both a requirement for His grace.

If you are referring to money–no. If you are referring to an obedience–yes.

Money cannot buy entrance into heaven–but obedience to God’s laws will bring forth the blessings of heaven–and God does give His grace to those who obey Him.

When Naaman was commanded to wash in the river Jordan to heal his leporsy, his argument could have been that water does not heal leporsy. Or if he was required to pay tithes–then he could have made the argument that money does not heal leporsy. And your argument seems to run along those lines.

Malachi 3:8-10----King James Version (KJV)

8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Old testament law not supported in NT…and nowhere does it say we must buy a ticket to heaven as the LDS Church teaches