How is the LDS a cult?

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dberrie2000 said:
Site, please. Where do you find any LDS doctrine that describes God as a sinful man?

A couple of points, here, Texan. One–quoting someone with racist views does not in any way change the fact that God had a priesthood that was exclusive to only a small group of people–or that God chose just a few to be the House of Israel in the OT–and the rexcepients of His special blessings, endemic to those few.

Nice try. We did not post “someone with racist views”. We poested LDS “prophets” spewing racist filth. Big difference. Nowhere do you hear true prophets speaking like that about other races…except in the LDS Church.

Secondly–I don’t believe you want to engage in digging up uncomfortable history–I believe I could dig up “horrible things” concerning the Catholic church, and Protestants, that goes far beyond racist views, which was probably a common view held at that time.

Another nice try. The BIG difference we will see is that the Catholics tou will dig up might have been priests, bishops, or laypeople…the LDS folks we will dig up were alleged PROPHETS. Now, to try to compare them is an admission by you that your guys were not really prophets. So, yes…LETS
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TexanKnight:
Great point TexanKnight! That is the fundamental difference.

dBerrie2000 - To expand on TexanKnight’s comments, it doesn’t take long to find cases of individuals committing sinful acts (considered sinful both in their time and ours). The history of the Church is after all 2000 years old.

The major difference (and key to our whole argument) is that these sins you mention were committed by *individuals *whereas the racial sins committed by your prophets (who the LDS believe received ‘divine’ revelation) are the racial sins of your church’s god and are thus of the LDS church.

You cannot separate your prophets’ “divine” racial teaching with the individual person acting as a supposed prophet.

That’s a major difference and one that is very concerning.
 
TexanKnight said:
Another nice try. The BIG difference we will see is that the Catholics tou will dig up might have been priests, bishops, or laypeople…the LDS folks we will dig up were alleged PROPHETS. Now, to try to compare them is an admission by you that your guys were not really prophets. So, yes…LETS
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Another thing to add is that Catholics don’t hide from their history. They own up to it, and face it. Mormons on the other hand, try to rewrite it, whitewash it, or deny it.

BIG differences.
 
twopekinguys said:
Another thing to add is that Catholics don’t hide from their history. They own up to it, and face it. Mormons on the other hand, try to rewrite it, whitewash it, or deny it.

BIG differences.
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Excellent point.

As proof of the falseness of LDS Theology and teaching comes to light, the more whitewashing and backtracking that goes on
 
RocketRM said:
The major difference (and key to our whole argument) is that these sins you mention were committed by *individuals *whereas the racial sins committed by your prophets (who the LDS believe received ‘divine’ revelation) are the racial sins of your church’s god and are thus of the LDS church.
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Not to mention teaching others to participate in and view as good, sexual sins.
 
it has always amused me that Mormons tend to try to compare prophets with anyone else. When it suits them, prophets are above others as they speak directly to God. But, when their prophets make false prophesies, spew horribly racist comments, or things of that nature, they try to compare them to people who do NOT claim that direct line to God.
 
True virtue tends to hide itself and live virtue only for the Lord as He is the Author of all Virtue.

A soul seeking perfection wants to be transparent and let its sins be brought to the light so the Lord made prune and make that person better.

If we hide our sins and faults, then we won’t be ever growing in the perfection of the Lord that is finalized in heaven.

That is why the Lord said He is present when we are in two’s and three’s as He is the God of Love, and we need to share and make our love for Him complete when we have a friend or two climbing the Mountain of the Lord, and we also need our neighbor to help us see our blind spots.
 
I thought this thread was done at X-mas but alas, it has returned. As largely an outside observer of this long thread I will offer my humble analysis: the Mormon backed posts and replies never seem to directly answer the numerous clear and reasonable objections to Momon doctrine. Is this an LDS strategy?

I found the same tactic used by a noted BYU professor in the September-October issue of Catholic Answers. In the article, Are the Mormon Scriptures Credible? A Catholic-Mormon dialogue, senior Catholic apologist and author Jimmy Akin debated Dr. Robert L. Millet, a professor of ancient scriputre at BYU. Akin clearly demonstated what many of the Christian posters on this forum have stated over and over, namely, that Mormon scriptures are not at all credible.

And to think we have some prominent national figures, including a near president of the U.S., who believe that God lives near a star or planet called Kolob? Are you kidding me? It reminds me of L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. :knight1:
 
From what I understand any religion that purports to be Christian & rejects the Trinity Doctrine is a cult…
…I’m speaking of the definition as laid down by the Councils of the Church.
…Such as Mormons, SDA’s, JW’s,etc claiming that God is ONE only in the way Christ and the Apostles were “one”.
…Such as claiming God the Son could have sinned and lost His own salvation ( as if it were gifted to Him and not part of His Nature ). Those kinds of things.
 
dberrie2000 said:
Your reporting the highlighted in red stats as facts was questioned–you reported that you got that from youtube.

Again–somebody-said-that somebody-said is not necessarily what I would refer to as facts. And anybody that posts them as such, I would not rely on for the acquisition of facts, and 110 year old members cannot change that.
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Here’s some indication to you (proof to me) of LDS misinformation. The LDS have to publish financial details in the UK by law. You can easily read them on line. There are some very interesting disclosures which lead to one clear conclusion - the LDS lie. As one example only (there are MANY more):

There are 332 congregations in the UK.

Tithing per congregation = £91,150 per annum.
Uk average salary is £30,000 which would equate to a tithe of 3,000 per annum. That equates (statistically) to an average of 30 members per ward paying a full tithe.

Average claimed members per congregation = 566 !!! Unless you can bring yourself to believe that only 10% of each congregation are tithing (excluding a 50% allowance for children/students) then the LDS are telling lies and grossly inflating their membership. ONE MARK OF A CULT IS THAT IT TELLS LIES. The LDS tells lies.
 
dberrie2000 said:
Your reporting the highlighted in red stats as facts was questioned–you reported that you got that from youtube.***(see my note below)

Again–somebody-said-that somebody-said is not necessarily what I would refer to as facts. And anybody that posts them as such, I would not rely on for the acquisition of facts, and 110 year old members cannot change that.
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*** I never mentioned youtube and have not obtained any info from that source. Another example of LDS lies.

You can check the facts on census figs for many countries and then simply compare the claimed membership from the LDS website - EASY, if I can do it then you can. Let me start you off:

The results of the Brazilian 2010 Census (easily traceable online) show the following:

Self-identified Mormons in Brazil - 226.509 ! (and some of these won’t be practicing)

BUT official figs from SLC claim over 1 million (easily checkable from LDS sources)
  • Population of Brazil: 190 million…
  • JW’s: 1,3 million, * Adventists: 1,5 million, * Catholics: 123 million, * Baptists: 3,7 million, * Assembly of God: 12,3 million, * Spiritualists: 3,8 million, * No religion: 15,3 million (NOTE - the JW’s - another cult - claim membership which is much closer to the census figs - the JW’s are MORE HONEST about membership than the LDS by far)
And let us not forget that the LDS claim Brazil one of its most successful areas.

CULTS LIE, THE LDS LIES, THE LDS IS A CULT
 
Pythons said:
From what I understand any religion that purports to be Christian & rejects the Trinity Doctrine is a cult…
…I’m speaking of the definition as laid down by the Councils of the Church.
…Such as Mormons, SDA’s, JW’s,etc claiming that God is ONE only in the way Christ and the Apostles were “one”.
…Such as claiming God the Son could have sinned and lost His own salvation ( as if it were gifted to Him and not part of His Nature ). Those kinds of things.
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I wonder about Jesus’ inability to sin. If that is true, what was the point of the temptation in the desert? I always thought that part of Jesus’ triumph over sin was his showing us the way to avoid it. If he was incapable of sin, it seems to me that would be like praising a train engineer for finding his way to the railroad station, wouldn’t it?
 
yankeeredneck said:
I wonder about Jesus’ inability to sin. If that is true, what was the point of the temptation in the desert? I always thought that part of Jesus’ triumph over sin was his showing us the way to avoid it. If he was incapable of sin, it seems to me that would be like praising a train engineer for finding his way to the railroad station, wouldn’t it?
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My understanding is Jesus is fully God and fully Man. The divine nature of Jesus cannot be tempted, the human nature could. If you go into depth of the temptations, they are three fold, and a temptation “strategy” of Satan that is repeated both in scripture and in our own lives. The first time we see it in scripture is in the Garden, when Satan tempts Eve. John describes the three fold temptation as this:

[BIBLEDRB]1 John 2:16[/BIBLEDRB]

Adam and Eve gives us the example of one response, turning from God and giving into temptation. Because of sin, and our need to be redeemed and reconciled to God, the Hebrews of the Old Testament were commanded to offer up to God an unblemished sacrifice. Jesus fulfills the sacrifice of the lamb, the Son is offered as a unblemished sacrifice, for the sins of the world. (See Hebrews.) In the desert, Jesus is tempted in the same way, with the same strategy, as Adam and Eve were tempted. He shows us the response that aligns us to the will of God. They are all temptations of the flesh, which in His human vesture, was a true temptation. He shows us the Way.
 
For me, I tend to use the popular understanding of what makes a cult.

A popular notion of what makes a cult is that its construct is based on fraud and deceit, and while forcing followers to stay in it through abuse and intimidation, likewise – uses them to sustain itself.
 
KathleenGee said:
For me, I tend to use the popular understanding of what makes a cult.

A popular notion of what makes a cult is that its construct is based on fraud and deceit, and while forcing followers to stay in it through abuse and intimidation, likewise – uses them to sustain itself.
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This
 
Kanuckistani said:
Why do so many people believe the LDS is a cult? I personally think otherwise. How could a church with nearly 15 million members, be a cult? And I know some Mormons and they told me the church doesn’t dictate what they can and cannot do. Look at many Mormon politicians. They let their positions known and receive no criticism towards them from the LDS church. It’s not like Mormons are held on a leash or anything.

Also, the church has no charismatic or authoritarian leader, and I recently talked to a Mormon who told me they don’t worship any of their prophets (even Joseph Smith!). The current president seems like a genuinely nice, and democratic leader.

Here’s what a cult is defined as:
  1. A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
  2. A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
If the LDS is a cult, then us Catholics and protestants are as well, since we devote our lives to Jesus Christ. Also, the LDS is by no means small, and it’s practices are not too strange (besides wearing special undergarments and not being able to drink coffee or alcohol).

Also, I don’t want to come off as pro-Mormon or anti-Catholic (I love my Catholic faith). So lets keep this civil.

Regards,
Kanuck
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The Catholic Church is not a cult, it was founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Church that you say you “love”. All other churches that came 1500 years later are all man made, sad but true. Jesus said: “the gates of hell will not prevail against it” so why would it dawn on a man Martin Luther or any man or woman, 1500-2013 years later to start his or her own church? Martin Luther started a domino effect of many different churches. It must be that Martin Luther or any other who starts a church did not/do not believe in our Lords word regarding Our Lords First and only Church, that, the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

But, even though the protestant reformation was not of Jesus Christ, God always finds a way to make good out of it, and that many here will learn the truth and become Catholic.

As for a cult, there can be nothing good.

Ufamtobie
 
The Catholic Church is the Church established by Jesus Christ. We will lose our faith if we withdraw from Him and focus on churchmen or any other person.

The effects of true faith and true religion is inner freedom, affirmation of our own individual gift of self made in the image of God, and that, traditionally, it is the rich in the Church to support the poor, and likewise, they give only what they freely want to give.

Again, our goal in life as Catholics is just not to receive inner peace and freedom. Not one single Catholic – pope, priest, religious, or lay – personally owns anything in the Church. Nobody owns the buildings, the art works, the Vatican Library. It all belongs to Christ, and is intended for the glory and praise of Him, The Church His Bride, and we nourished by Him through the Church and sacraments.

Our goal in life is communion with the Holy Trinity vs the Prosperity Gospel.

And contrary to the Prosperity Gospel, our first step in approaching the Holy Trinity is to seek spiritual poverty.

Some religions give the impression that the Mormon church asks for W-2’s when one joins…and the money is tithed, so it is very hard I would think on working class families vs affluent ones with only couples being tithed at the same rate. Correct me if I am wrong.
 
The Mormon religion gets its livelihood off the back of its members. Catholicism gets its livelihood from the Bread of Life, Jesus Christ, Logos…the Living Word Made Flesh.
 
KathleenGee said:
The Mormon religion gets its livelihood off the back of its members. Catholicism gets its livelihood from the Bread of Life, Jesus Christ, Logos…the Living Word Made Flesh.
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I struggled with responding to this. I agree with you; on the other hand, they may not understand. I believe you have knowledge in this, so I apologize for “preaching to the choir”.

On the money front. They are not likely to understand the difference of giving money to the church and giving money to the church (10% tithing vs. the Collect, Peter’s Pence, etc.). Also, they will find it distasteful that money is handled during church services. Plus, they take pride in their unpaid clergy (talk about catechism problems, all roles in the church are filled temporarily from the laity. It is a grab bag on the quality of teaching/knowledge of church doctrine, this is attempted to be shored up through church published teaching materials) *

On the theological and/or liturgical front. They do not believe in the Real Presence (they use grocery store white bread and water). My experience of things they spent the most time teaching has been more their D&C with occasional BoM “backing it up” than Biblical. Plus with their misunderstanding of the Trinity… Anyway.

I apologize for possibly overreacting to your response. For making awkward something you said eloquently.*
 
Thanks for your experience and its insight.

When I critique, I am always referring to Mr Leader and not the Mormon people.

Their reservations are the result of the intense anti-Catholicism in Mormonism which is its construct…not Islam or communism or Naziism or anything else. The Mormon religion is first and foremost anti-Catholic. It will use a Protestant bible but not a Catholic bible. They had a program out last year on the King James Bible…and the references and characterization of the Catholic Church was sheer bigotry as it was misrepresesentative and non-scholarly no matter how hard they tried. Mr. Leader.

Mormons are to trust them and accept their ever changing beliefs and practices and not to think.

Taking steps to becoming gods…this is stepping on one forbidden fruit after another. It is all lies.

We are made in the image of God. That is, God has given us free will and intellect, which Mormon denies this image of God in us. You can think, you can criticize, and challenge your Catholic Church and its leadership, provided you apply Christian respect and charity.

I have spoken most honestly and strongly with clerics and they always like and affirm my concerns instead of threatening to excommunicate me.

Hypocrisy and lying go hand in hand.
 
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