How is the LDS a cult?

[KathleenGee]

The other issue about hypocricy, I went back to December posts…And Aramis was saying that the Mormon authority operates just as the concave to elect a new pope…behind closed doors.

And Mormonism denies the apostles the right to appoint successors…to avoid a loss of the Church, but through Joseph Smith and his own group, I don’t know what they called themselves, were able to appoint successors…1800 years after the event. Employing reason, I would assume there would be a great deal of beliefs and practices lost of the true faith, Israel and ancient Christianity and its roots vs. Joseph Smith in 1830 America.

Think.

 

[Phntm]

Oh, did you mention this on the other thread with LW? Good point.

 

[KathleenGee]

I have brought this point up various times going back on the Mormon threads.

I try to spend alot of time praying for the Mormon people because I do believe they have inherently good practices outside Mr. Leader’s.

 

[KathleenGee]

I also worked with missionary priests and they always wanted us with them at their meetings…

It was not at all ‘churchy’…but being with real people…it was family …That to me personally is the real model of how to be church to each other.

If you were ‘off’, you were immediately told off…then the next moment…being shown alot of love and affection.

Likewise I remembering them speaking about ‘Papa’…‘he doesn’t know what is going on here…he needs to know what is happening’…or even open disagreements about a pastoral practice or stand by the pope.

Since then, I have heard it alot by clergy men…and we see it in Catholic newspapers…and I will never forget the one where the National Catholic Reporter had John Paul II in a huge drawing front page…of him as the Lone Ranger, about 1992.

John Paul II did not get on his horse and hunt down the National Catholic Reporter, he and all popes are not monitoring our every movement and we can say whatever…provided.

We do not adulate the papacy like a cult leader…although it can easily be misperceived…it is rather giving glory to Christ and seeing that He used carnal sinners to run His church…He that great to us.

I also like to point out about the Last Supper…where Christ then renames Simon to Peter, and appoints him to head His church. Then so many minutes later, Peter is now trying to tell the Lord to not go through in His Passion. Christ then turns on him and calls Peter, Satan. ‘Get behind Me, Satan, you think as men do…’

So we do not want a belief system by and of and for men. It will lead to no one laying down his life for Christ…look at all the martyrs all down through the ages…

 

[Porknpie]

The question of how is the LDS a cult can be examined based on the criteria below by Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups - Revised ( Lalich, Ph.D. & Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.)

Concerted efforts at influence and control lie at the core of cultic groups, programs, and relationships. Many members, former members, and supporters of cults are not fully aware of the extent to which members may have been manipulated, exploited, even abused. The following list of social-structural, social-psychological, and interpersonal behavioral patterns commonly found in cultic environments may be helpful in assessing a particular group or relationship.

-‪ The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.)

-‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

-‪ Mind-altering practices are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

• The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel

-‪ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members

-‪ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

-‪ The leader is not accountable to any authorities

-‪ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary.

-‪ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members.

Thoughts here?

 

[KathleenGee]

Great post, Porknpie…

It makes me think of other belief systems that had no accountability of leadership or witnesses.

 

[Aramis]

Let’s see … Porknpie’s list. As an outsider with a number of mormon friends and coworkers…

-‪ The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.)
Ever been to a ward service? Testimony begins with “The LDS is the true church and Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God…” - all authority of the church is apparently based upon Joseph Smith’s prophethood.

**-‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. **
According to several friends, the first step is pulling of or denial of a Temple Recommend. Upon ceasing to be active, the harassing phone calls (which I’ve answered, and pointed out that the person being called was NOT the one whose name was on the phone listing) were relentless until I threatened to sue.

-‪ Mind-altering practices are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s). Mild, but the constant reiteration of testimony, and the social pressures to conform and to testify are part of the normative technicques for “coercive indoctrination.” (Coercive Indoctrination is another term for “Brainwashing.”)

**- The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel ** I’ve seen local ward bishops chide LDS faithful in public for expressing opinions that violate the LDS teaching.

-‪ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members Most religions do.

**-‪ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. ** The LDS encourages dissassociation from friends who are either unwilling to listen to the sales-pitch or are critical of the LDS Church. (The RLDS are a different level of that. FLDS are actively isolationist.)

-‪ The leader is not accountable to any authorities
They claim the Prophet is answerable only to God.

**-‪ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. ** They have some limits… But they also don’t mind shading the beliefs carefully (and often deceptively) for potential converts.

-‪ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. The use of shunning and bars to both temple and (at times) ward chapel services for non-compliant members, plus appeals to parent’s “eternal good” for an adult child’s non-compliance are techniques I’ve seen used on two roommates and 3 acquaintances, by individuals calling from the ward’s phone bank. And on one fellow I didn’t know at the bus stop (by mormon missionaries). On the mild end, but present.

 

[KathleenGee]

Good response…

Vatican II however states that in spite of the graces given Catholics, if they fail in charity, they will not only be judged but judged more severely.

To be truly charitable…you must be humble and not proud, and see yourself dead, dying to Christ,…it Christ alone who is the source of our self esteem…in the Cross.

Individual Catholics can be superior in attitude…but it is not true Christianity…not what the Church teaches.

 

[kimg901]

A friend of mine at work told me he went to the local lds food bank to recieve food. I was like “okay, is everything going alright?” He then told me he had to work for 4 hours to recieve the food. I wouldnt say this is cult-ish, but sounds more like a business than a church and not very charitible. I told him next time he needs food then ill send him to my parish where its not required to work in order to recieve

 

[mtolympus]

A friend of mine at work told me he went to the local lds food bank to recieve food. I was like “okay, is everything going alright?” He then told me he had to work for 4 hours to recieve the food. I wouldnt say this is cult-ish, but sounds more like a business than a church and not very charitible. I told him next time he needs food then ill send him to my parish where its not required to work in order to recieve

Hi kimg901,

The LDS welfare system is designed to help people in need become self sufficient. Able bodied people are expected to be willing to work in return for what they receive. The four hours he worked was most likely at a welfare cannery, mill or bishop’s store house along side others who were working a four hour shift as un-paid volenteers.

 

[ffg]

Hi kimg901,

The LDS welfare system is designed to help people in need become self sufficient. Able bodied people are expected to be willing to work in return for what they receive. The four hours he worked was most likely at a welfare cannery, mill or bishop’s store house along side others who were working a four hour shift as un-paid volenteers.

That’s interesting that you call them Volunteers.

What if they are able bodied, needy and not interested in working? Does the charity provide a can of food?

 

[kimg901]

Hi kimg901,

The LDS welfare system is designed to help people in need become self sufficient. Able bodied people are expected to be willing to work in return for what they receive. The four hours he worked was most likely at a welfare cannery, mill or bishop’s store house along side others who were working a four hour shift as un-paid volenteers.

It was a bishops store. But why would they make him work? He has a job (we work together) so he is self sufficient and isnt abusing the system. Our hours are cut during the winter. But why did they give him a $30 check if its un paid?

 

[RebeccaJ]

It was a bishops store. But why would they make him work? He has a job (we work together) so he is self sufficient and isnt abusing the system. Our hours are cut during the winter. But why did they give him a $30 check if its un paid?

I think you’re seeing a hold over from the United Order days of Mormonism. Which was a cooperative, not a charity.

That’s interesting that you call them Volunteers.

What if they are able bodied, needy and not interested in working? Does the charity provide a can of food?

In this sense, “volunteer” is used in the context of voluntarily cooperating. “Not interested in working”, would fall under not voluntarily cooperating, so no can of food for you.

 

[KathleenGee]

In the Catholic missions, the missionaries do not want to give out hand outs but help the people become more sufficient.

The missions were places for free education that also helped the natives think more critically, to learn to read and write and do math, and learn about the world. Their big focus was cooperatives where whole communities actively engaged in open dialogue, and finding means to form their own livelihoods. The missionaries help them set up agricultural bases, as well as ‘Green Zones’, to provide sustenance not just for their own, but for entire populations.

Lay missionaries would came to provide literacy programs, others, educational and technical schools, free medical, dental, hygiene, public health, and water supply, all involving teaching the natives to take over these skills.

Of course, the poor are not sent away empty, but the main concern was not to cripple the people by becoming dependent, but educating them and helping them to help themselves, so I do see understanding of the Mormon bishops’ programs.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Kathleen, that is a good comparison.

 

[mtolympus]

That’s interesting that you call them Volunteers.

What if they are able bodied, needy and not interested in working? Does the charity provide a can of food?

I don’t know. I usually fill 3 or 4 of these four hour shifts a year. What would you call me?

In my location we also “volunteer” at a food shelter that is run by the community, or give rides for the homeless from the homeless shelter where the sleep to where they can spend time down town during the day.

The need for LDS church welfare is left to the judgement of the local LDS bishop. If people can work and are not willing to work there are other places they can get a hand out.

 

[mtolympus]

In the Catholic missions, the missionaries do not want to give out hand outs but help the people become more sufficient.

The missions were places for free education that also helped the natives think more critically, to learn to read and write and do math, and learn about the world. Their big focus was cooperatives where whole communities actively engaged in open dialogue, and finding means to form their own livelihoods. The missionaries help them set up agricultural bases, as well as ‘Green Zones’, to provide sustenance not just for their own, but for entire populations.

Lay missionaries would came to provide literacy programs, others, educational and technical schools, free medical, dental, hygiene, public health, and water supply, all involving teaching the natives to take over these skills.

Of course, the poor are not sent away empty, but the main concern was not to cripple the people by becoming dependent, but educating them and helping them to help themselves, so I do see understanding of the Mormon bishops’ programs.

The Catholic Church has a wonderful program. The LDS Church often works with Catholic Charities in world relief efforts.

 

[mtolympus]

It was a bishops store. But why would they make him work? He has a job (we work together) so he is self sufficient and isnt abusing the system. Our hours are cut during the winter. But why did they give him a $30 check if its un paid?

He was given a $30 check (or more likely a food voucher to purchase food from the storehouse) because he told the bishop what he needed. The bishop saw that he needed the money and that he was willing to help out at the bishop’s storehouse.

I was a bishop’s clerk at one time and co-signed a check for $1000 that was needed to pay someone’s rent. The only thing that was required was that he attended church, was willing to participate in welfare assignments when possible, and that he was actively seeking employment.

 

[SteveVH]

He was given a $30 check (or more likely a food voucher to purchase food from the storehouse) because he told the bishop what he needed. The bishop saw that he needed the money and that he was willing to help out at the bishop’s storehouse.

I was a bishop’s clerk at one time and co-signed a check for $1000 that was needed to pay someone’s rent. The only thing that was required was that he attended church, was willing to participate in welfare assignments when possible, and that he was actively seeking employment.

We do the same thing, but do not require that they attend our Church. I see nothing wrong with asking the recipients of welfare to help out if they can. Many ask if there is something they can do. You’re doing a good thing.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

That’s interesting that you call them Volunteers.

What if they are able bodied, needy and not interested in working? Does the charity provide a can of food?

He means there are abled-bodied LDS there not in need of financial help volunteering their time, and that king’s friend who was in need of help was working along side these volunteers.

I’ve worked at a couple Bishops’ Storehouses, and still find the concept pretty efficient. The LDS welfare system’s structure is definitely to be praised, and if more churches were to model their charitable arms after it, and cut overhead and waste like the LDS, I might actually be a little more persuaded by the Republican claim that faith based initiatives are sufficient.