How is this fair?

[ConstantineTG]

In regards to obedience: I have read many stories of Saints enduring injustices committed against them by people and by clergy in error, and I’ve read of their patience in these trying times.

My desire for Communion reminds me of my second favorite Saint (my absolute favorite being Mary of course), St. Therese de Lisieux’s desire for Communion when she was little. You’d see how strong this desire is if you’ve read The Story of a Soul. It’s a great book.

I’ve often wondered how they could be so obedient. wisdom 3:5 - You’re absolutely right that obedience is important. But I just can’t seem to be obedient. I always have to fight. I’ve tried fighting God’s concept of sin (to no avail, obviously), and now I’m trying to fight this Church custom. The first I’ve accepted, the second I’m struggling against even now.

Pray that I may receive such obedience, so God may take pity and mercy on me. Please and thank you.

I told my priest that I was baptized as an Episcopalian. I received first communion from them after my baptism, though this wasn’t the true Communion because it wasn’t the literal Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus.

Here’s how the conversation went:

Me: *
Priest: “You’re Catholic though, right?”
Me: “I was baptized as an Episcopalian but converted to Catholicism recently”
Priest: “When did you convert”
Me: “A couple of months ago”
Priest: [Talked about how it’s Church custom that I wait until Easter when I’m confirmed before I receive Communion again]

Then we went on with the Confession, I gave an Act of Contrition, and he absolved me of my sins. This, to me, was him indirectly saying that I can still go to Confession so long as I believe, even though I haven’t made an “official” (if that’s the correct word to use) Profession of Faith and haven’t gotten confirmed yet.*

But disobeying the Church also would warrant you exclusion from Communion. Disobeying the Church is a sin. Futhermore, the grace of Communion doesn’t only unite you with Christ, it also unites you with the Church. So if you are disobeying the Church, your Communion is a lie and a sacrilege to the Sacrament.

Also, don’t read the story of the saints just at face value. Know that all the saints have faithfully submitted themselves not only to God but to the Church as well at the time they have turned away from their sins and lived their saintly lives.

Today is the feast day of Saint Francis of Assisi. Read his entire life story and reflect on it. St. Francis never defied the Church even though the Church was going through a very trying time during his life. In fact, he even once said in defence of a priest that was being accused of living a sinful life that if an angel would appear right there and then, he would go and kiss the hands of the sinful priest first before the angel. Because only the priest was given the authority to forgive sins and only he has been blessed to be able to consecrate the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ.

So please, do not mistake that there are saints that have defied the Church. Some of them do at the time they haven’t started living their saintly lives yet, like Saul of Tarsus before he became St. Paul. But once they have started living the saintly lives, they have displayed all saintly virtues including total humility and obedience towards the Church.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I also converted and went through RCIA as an adult “candidate”. I remember you do have to (required) go to confession before your first communion and confirmation (which is usually at Easter). In my case, I went to confession right before receiving my first communion. It sounds like you are going earlier, which I don’t suppose there is anything that says you can’t, but I don’t think it logically rules out the necessity to wait until Easter for communion.

There is no hard rule that mandates Easter is the only time to receive new Catholics. It is a priest’s discretion. So we have to follow what the priest says.

 

[JHow]

There is no hard rule that mandates Easter is the only time to receive new Catholics. It is a priest’s discretion. So we have to follow what the priest says.

Yep. I realize that, but it seems like his priest and RCIA prorgam are directing him to wait until Easter.

 

[Phemie]

I told my priest that I was baptized as an Episcopalian. I received first communion from them after my baptism, though this wasn’t the true Communion because it wasn’t the literal Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus.

Here’s how the conversation went:

Me: *
Priest: “You’re Catholic though, right?”
Me: “I was baptized as an Episcopalian but converted to Catholicism recently”
Priest: “When did you convert”
Me: “A couple of months ago”
Priest: [Talked about how it’s Church custom that I wait until Easter when I’m confirmed before I receive Communion again]

Then we went on with the Confession, I gave an Act of Contrition, and he absolved me of my sins. This, to me, was him indirectly saying that I can still go to Confession so long as I believe, even though I haven’t made an “official” (if that’s the correct word to use) Profession of Faith and haven’t gotten confirmed yet.*
You led the priest to believe that you had been received into the Church, so he heard your confession. Not something of which you should be proud.

After 3 years of experimenting with multiple religions you suddenly decided you were Catholic and started identifying yourself as such. You expect the Church to bend over backwards to do what YOU want but you don’t want to put out the effort to do what the Church wants, which is for you to be obedient and show that you are serious about wanting to convert.

I’m sorry, your actions don’t show conversion. They show a kid wanting what he wants when he wants it and lying to get it.

 

[Jea9]

If the only time that you have discussed this with your pastor is during confession, I really urge you to call and make an appointment with the pastor. Then you can discuss everything, ask him if he can assess your knowledge and see if you may be received into the Church before Easter. I did this, although I was a catechumen, I had not been baptized. I met with our pastor for about 3 months privately and I was baptized in September, he asked me to go to RCIA so that I could be a help to the group and prepare for confirmation at Easter. I was so excited for this priest to confirm me, but then found out that the Bishop refused to let him do it since there were no baptisms at Easter; he decided we could wait and be confirmed with the other confirmation candidates a month or so after.

I also urge you to work on obedience; think of Mary, whom you seem to have a strong devotion to, and how she waited in obedience for her time of purification before presenting Jesus in the temple. Think how hard it would have been for her, to know that she wasn’t defiled, had carried the Son of Man for 9 months and yet had to wait 40 days out of custom? Is your waiting really that much harder than hers was?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Yep. I realize that, but it seems like his priest and RCIA prorgam are directing him to wait until Easter.

Its a traditional practice, but not a hard rule. There is rich symbolism in it. Also perhaps because thats how the RCIA program is laid out. Some priests may be strict about it, some may be not.

 

[MarianD]

You led the priest to believe that you had been received into the Church, so he heard your confession. Not something of which you should be proud.

How could I have led the priest into anything? I wasn’t even aware I was banned from confessing sins. I answered the priests questions, told him what I thought he needed to know, and that was it.

The man isn’t an idiot. He understood clearly that I was baptized as a non-Catholic Christian, converted to Catholicism, and am now in the RCIA program awaiting confirmation. He can connect 2 and 2 and know that I haven’t made a profession of faith.

He knew for a fact that I haven’t been formally received into the Church because of 3 things I told him:

#1: That I’m in the RCIA program at the Church
#2: That I converted to Catholicism a couple of months earlier
#3: That I was baptized as an Episcopalian

And since I didn’t know I had to be formally received into the Church to go to Confession, I never mentioned that. In fact, I didn’t even know about this whole “formally received” thing until a couple of days ago after I posted this thread. So deceit is not a factor here.

After 3 years of experimenting with multiple religions you suddenly decided you were Catholic and started identifying yourself as such. You expect the Church to bend over backwards to do what YOU want but you don’t want to put out the effort to do what the Church wants, which is for you to be obedient and show that you are serious about wanting to convert.

“Bend over backwards?” Are you kidding me? I’m asking a question here, wanting to know the details.

Until today, I didn’t realize I was banned from confession as well as Communion. So nobody here wants the Church to bend over backwards for anybody. I’m just trying to confirm that I can’t receive Communion, since you can’t believe everything you read on the internet. Hence why I posted this thread.

And the decision wasn’t “sudden” in the least bit. It involved prayer, study, and trust in God and in Mary. This is still ongoing, and my faith has remained strong even with people like you who seem to doubt my convictions.

I’m sorry, your actions don’t show conversion. They show a kid wanting what he wants when he wants it and lying to get it.

This is the part of your post that angers me the most. You have no idea how hard it was for me to try and detach myself from the sins I committed on a daily basis. You have no idea how, in just the span of 3 months, I’ve had to put up with ridicule and defending my religion because I decided to be happy as a Catholic. You have no clue how hard I’ve studied BEFORE making the decision to become Catholic, how I converted (however unofficial that conversion was), how much I’ve had to learn, etc.

Do you know how hard I’ve prayed? No.

Do you know how much I’ve had to trust in God, against my own judgment? No.

Do you even realize how much I care about God and love Him? Apparently not.

The Catholic Church never condemns anyone to Hell because it is impossible for anyone except for God to know a person’s true heart, and I’m certain God knows I care about Him. He knows for a fact that I care about Him, regardless of what you want to believe.

So you have absolutely no right to judge my intentions when you sit behind your computer screen hundreds of miles away from me, never having talked to me before in your life until today.

Call me a kid all you want, I don’t care. But don’t ever doubt my devotion to God. Not at this time in my life, where I’m so certain of my path and of my faith.

 

[adv1sor]

First off, welcome home MarianD.

Stay the course. It will be well worth it.

But check your ideas of fairness at the door. Or, more correctly, at the foot of the cross.

If you start with the cross as a reference, you see that our ideas of fairness need a bit of adjusting.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

You are not alone in this. My husband was baptized Catholic but not raised that way. I luckily was baptized Catholic and had my first communion before I left the Church. So, I go to confession and receive communion. My husband can not. We are both in RCIA as I was not confirmed. He has to wait too…and he watches me receive. I know he would love to but waits patiently. I belive it will be worth it for him and you too.

Blessings!

 

[KarenElissa]

He knew for a fact that I haven’t been formally received into the Church because of 3 things I told him:

#1: That I’m in the RCIA program at the Church
#2: That I converted to Catholicism a couple of months earlier
#3: That I was baptized as an Episcopalian

And since I didn’t know I had to be formally received into the Church to go to Confession, I never mentioned that. In fact, I didn’t even know about this whole “formally received” thing until a couple of days ago after I posted this thread. So deceit is not a factor here.

I get that you weren’t trying to deceive anyone, but we are telling you that the terminology that you used, makes it sound like you were received into the Church by a Profession of Faith. Saying that you “converted” implies that you are actually Catholic, which you are not. I get that you had no idea that is what you implied, that is why we are trying to tell you.

It is all in the terminology. You, as a non-Catholic, were not aware of how we use terms and I’m guessing the priest was not aware that you were using words differently from what he was used to.

 

[Corki]

The RCIA classes I’m taking are for my leading up to Confirmation. They aren’t for me to learn about the teachings of the Church because I already know them, though it doesn’t hurt to review and get a different viewpoint on each teaching from the Catechists.

**Until today, I didn’t realize **I was banned from confession as well as Communion. So nobody here wants the Church to bend over backwards for anybody. I’m just trying to confirm that I can’t receive Communion, since you can’t believe everything you read on the internet. Hence why I posted this thread.

Just looking at these two statements, I think you have a great deal of confusion about Church teaching. But since you think you already know the teachings, you aren’t seeing it. This is why there is RCIA (or other formal classes) for converts. Please attend the classes with an open heart and mind. Stop trying to second guess the Church and your teachers.

BTW, you don’t need to be Confirmed to go to Confession. But you have to be an actual Catholic, not just an aspiring one, to receive absolution. Most people growing up in the Church first go to Confession several years before they are Confirmed. For those coming to the faith later in life, preparing for Confession is part of the RCIA (or other) program. Since you were previously validly Baptized, the Confession would take the form of a general Confession (all the mortal sins since your Baptism).

 

[tafan]

Yes, no sacraments includes confession. Right before you are received into the Church, you will be given the opportunity to go to confession since you are generally received into the Church and confirmed at the same time, but until then you will have to wait.
.

This highlights the flaw in the RCIA programs. We have a baptized adult person who cannot avail themselves to the sacrament of confession until an arbitary number of days prior to the easter vigil? Why? When someone is ready, and I am making no statements of judgement one way or the other about the OP, the sacraments should be made available. It is different if it is an unbaptized person. It is not. I cannot imagine being told, once knowing the importance of the sacrament, that I could not receive confession for a year.

For those of you who claim that it requires a profession of faith to be Catholic on Easter Vigil, and until then, one cannot go to confession, please explain to me why every RCIA program I know about makes baptized people go to confession before the easter vigil and the public profession of faith. In this respect, the RCIA programs are correct, but you should be able to see the inconsistency in your argument.

 

[wisdom_3_5]

I’m praying for you MarianD.

One thing I wanted to put out to you on obedience. Ok, maybe more than one . . .

Think back to Adam & Eve. What did they do to sin? They were disobedient to God’s command not to eat the fruit. Pride is the motivation to sin, "I should have this because . . . ". Disobedience is the action of committing the sin, acutally taking the forbidden fruit.

Abraham received the covenant with God because he was willing to obey the Lord’s command (to sacrifice Isaac).

Moses disobeyed God by striking the rock (2nd time he was only to command it) and Moses didn’t enter the Promised Land.

King Saul disobeyed the Lord & lost the kingdom to David.

King Solomon disobeyed the Lord and amassed horses, gold and wives. After he died the kingdom of Israel was divided.

The prophets called on Israel to turn back to the Lord (obey His laws) and they didn’t. The nation was exiled.

I can give you others but you get the idea. God, through His Church (through your priest) is telling you to wait. You are being tested, don’t give in! Pray, pray, pray!

 

[MarianD]

^ Thank you very much wisdom for praying for me. Also, thank you for those examples. They really do put into perspective the importance of obedience, even when what’s being asked seems to make no sense. Thank you.

But I still need to know one thing:

I’ve been taught many times that tomorrow is never promised. I believe this to be true. If I were to suddenly drop dead tomorrow night, and since my past Confessions of my countless mortal sins were not valid because of my lack of formal conversion, then where would I go? Would I still be able to see God and enjoy Heavenly peace with my Mother? Or will I be condemned to an eternity without Him? I know there’s a Baptism of Desire which saves someone who wasn’t baptized with water due to circumstances out of his/her control, so is there a Confession of Desire as well?

 

[KFRaymond]

First off, after reading this entire thread, I’m curious to know how many people are actually involved in the RCIA process as either a candidate or Catechumen OR as an RCIA member representative of their parish.

MarianD is obviously passionate about being a Catholic, there’s no doubt.

As a person who has been on our RCIA team for years at our parish, I’ve watched literally hundreds of people walk through this process. And it IS a process. It’s unlike being a non-Catholic … you might one day decide to leave being a member at a Lutheran church and decide to attend a Methodist church and that’s pretty much all there is to do. Not so in becoming a Catholic.

As a person myself that wasn’t confirmed until my adulthood AND being born a Catholic and attending Mass my whole life (and that includes Confession!), I know that you don’t have to be confirmed to receive the Eucharist or go to Confession.

Where the discrepancy lies with this particular case is Catholics speak Catholic"ese" and non-Catholics speak non-Catholic"ese". MarianD is in a CONVERSION process but has not CONVERTED to being Catholic. That will happen when he makes a full profession of faith.

As far as the issue of Confession prior to that, a priest CAN hear confessions of anyone Catholic or non-Catholic. The sticky part of that comes into play where the recipient receives the graces of that sacrament because they are a professed Catholic.

There’s no timeline for the RCIA process … full Communion generally happens at the Easter Vigil but can happen at any time. The priest may decide to have 3 or 4 times a year when people are received into full Communion of the Church. In the case of our parish, we have a year-round, ongoing process. So we do have receptions into full Communion at more than the Easter Vigil.

In response to this portion of a post by tafan:

For those of you who claim that it requires a profession of faith to be Catholic on Easter Vigil, and until then, one cannot go to confession, please explain to me why every RCIA program I know about makes baptized people go to confession before the easter vigil and the public profession of faith. In this respect, the RCIA programs are correct, but you should be able to see the inconsistency in your argument.

There IS a specific point of the RCIA process that one is required to go to Confession as a baptized non-Catholic. There is a Period of Enlightenment that is usually a couple of weeks before a Candidate is received into the Church. It is the specific time that they are prepared to receive the sacrament and have been experiencing a penitential time in their individual process. Of course, the Candidate MUST receive this sacrament before receiving the Eucharist. But as I stated, there is a specific point in the process.

We all need to try to not make judgments as each person going through the RCIA process is on an individual journey. And it IS a journey! You certainly don’t receive a Catholic diploma and POOF, it’s done. When received into the Church, you basically are just beginning your faith walk as a Catholic.

MarianD, I am praying for you as you obviously have the Holy Spirit in your heart. you know where you need to be but PLEASE, enjoy the process! This is a once in a lifetime walk. Take each step and portion of the journey. The spiritual wait to receive the Eucharist until you make a profession of faith and are received into full communion of the Church is so very much worth the wait. There is a lot to learn, a lot to discern and even though our convictions tell us we’re ready, we aren’t always…

I’m certainly not trying to make any judgments, MarianD, but it sounds like the RCIA sessions you’re attending at the parish might not be extremely clear in all parts of the process. If there is an RCIA Director or parish priest the heads up the program, speak with them very clearly about your objectives and they will give you honest answers as to when all of these things are supposed to happen.

As others have said, place your impatience and hunger to receive the Eucharist at the foot of the cross and allow that to be a part of your daily walk with Jesus! God bless you and may He grant you peace, knowledge and understanding of all things you wish to come to know!

 

[KFRaymond]

^ Thank you very much wisdom for praying for me. Also, thank you for those examples. They really do put into perspective the importance of obedience, even when what’s being asked seems to make no sense. Thank you.

But I still need to know one thing:

I’ve been taught many times that tomorrow is never promised. I believe this to be true. If I were to suddenly drop dead tomorrow night, and since my past Confessions of my countless mortal sins were not valid because of my lack of formal conversion, then where would I go? Would I still be able to see God and enjoy Heavenly peace with my Mother? Or will I be condemned to an eternity without Him? I know there’s a Baptism of Desire which saves someone who wasn’t baptized with water due to circumstances out of his/her control, so is there a Confession of Desire as well?

I just read this post after replying… God in His infinite Mercy knows your heart. Trust in His mercy that if you were to die tomorrow, He would know the true desires of your heart! You’re doing well and you’re on the right path. Don’t sweat it and keep walking forward!

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

This highlights the flaw in the RCIA programs. We have a baptized adult person who cannot avail themselves to the sacrament of confession until an arbitary number of days prior to the easter vigil?

It has nothing to do with the Easter Vigil. People who are already baptized can be received into the Church at any time of year. Many parishes wait until Easter but that is their choice, not something required by the Rite.

Prior to the person being received into the Church he goes through another rite, the Call to Continuing Conversion. At this rite his sponsor, on behalf of the Church, testifies to his readiness to come into full communion. After that rite he has permission to go to confession and receive absolution and after that to receive the other Sacraments of Initiation.

Many dioceses have the Rite of Election (for the unbaptized) and Call to Continuing Conversion (for those already baptized) at a central point (such as the cathedral) on the same day. The bishop is basically giving his approval for these people to move on to the next stage. In my archdiocese, the Cardinal has separated the two rites and asked that the Call to Continuing Conversion be celebrated at appropriate times in individual parishes while the Rite of Election is celebrated centrally. He has delegated pastors to celebrate the Call to Continuing Conversion.

 

[FrDavid96]

How could I have led the priest into anything? I wasn’t even aware I was banned from confessing sins. I answered the priests questions, told him what I thought he needed to know, and that was it.

The man isn’t an idiot. He understood clearly that I was baptized as a non-Catholic Christian, converted to Catholicism, and am now in the RCIA program awaiting confirmation. He can connect 2 and 2 and know that I haven’t made a profession of faith.

He knew for a fact that I haven’t been formally received into the Church because of 3 things I told him:

#1: That I’m in the RCIA program at the Church
#2: That I converted to Catholicism a couple of months earlier
#3: That I was baptized as an Episcopalian

And since I didn’t know I had to be formally received into the Church to go to Confession, I never mentioned that. In fact, I didn’t even know about this whole “formally received” thing until a couple of days ago after I posted this thread. So deceit is not a factor here.

“Bend over backwards?” Are you kidding me? I’m asking a question here, wanting to know the details.

Until today, I didn’t realize I was banned from confession as well as Communion. So nobody here wants the Church to bend over backwards for anybody. I’m just trying to confirm that I can’t receive Communion, since you can’t believe everything you read on the internet. Hence why I posted this thread.
.

Marian,

There seems to be more than a little confusion here when it comes to vocabulary.

If you’ve converted, then you’re completely Catholic. It’s an all-or-nothing thing. Converting to Catholic is not (as some have implied) making a profession of faith. It is a special ritual done by the bishop (or perhaps a priest delegated by the bishop) to receive you into the Church.

RCIA has 3 options: the unbaptised, the previously-baptised non-Catholic, and the uncatechised baptised Catholic. From what you type, you’re in that second category: baptised Episcopalean. Being received into the Church normally includes Confirmation, so it would be rather unusual (in the situation you’ve described) for a person to be unconfirmed, yet still a Catholic. If you say that you are “already Catholic” but not confirmed, that would tell the listener that you are in the third category (uncatechised Catholic), or that somehow when you did convert, for some reason you were not confirmed.

If you say that you are “already Catholic” that means that you have been received into the Church in that formal rite. If that did not yet happen, then you aren’t yet Catholic. I think this is what is causing the confusion. In your post, you say 2 things:

“He knew for a fact that I haven’t been formally received into the Church…”
and
“#2: That I converted to Catholicism a couple of months earlier”

These 2 statements contradict each other. That’s what is causing the confusion here, and what might be confusing your priest as well (and he might not even be aware that he doesn’t fully understand the situation). I know that I’m getting confused as I read your posts because I can’t reconcile those 2 statments that you’ve made throughout (although I think that based on this post of yours that I’ve quoted, I now understand).

You see, if you did “convert to Catholicism” then that necessarily means that you were in fact “formally received into the Church” as those 2 mean the same thing.

As I understand it, that’s not how things work among Episcopaleans, where a baptised Christian can simply join the local congregation and be considered to have “converted” (or perhaps the more accurate word would be “transferred”) without any formal ritual being strictly necessary. Again, for someone who is not-Catholic to convert and become a Catholic, the only way this happens is for the bishop (or priest) to formally receive one into the Church, using the appropriate ritual from the RCIA.

Your priest is likely confused because if you tell him that you have already converted, but you haven’t been confirmed, that would lead the priest to believe that you have participated in the ritual of being formally received into the Church, but for some reason the usual Confirmation did not take place. That would still put someone in your situation “in RCIA” because RCIA includes any adult who has not been confirmed–contrary to a lot of misinformation that’s floating around here that RCIA is “only” or even “primarily” for the unbaptised.

 

[diggerdomer]

One of the priests in my local parish said it was Church custom that I wait until after I am confirmed to receive communion since I was baptized as an Episcopalian.

If you are baptized Episcopalian and want to enter full communion with the Catholic Church, then yes, this is correct. Your initiation into the Catholic Church would be celebrated at one ritual, though…you would first be confirmed/anointed, and then celebrate communion (Eucharist). So, the order is correct, sequentially, but there’s really no “waiting” involved as it’s all at one liturgical celebration.

 

[diggerdomer]

If I understand the situation correctly, I believe the original poster has a valid point, and it is a flaw in our RCIA programs IMO. If she was validly baptized, and now as an adult has learned and accepted the Catholic faith, there is no reason why she should have to wait for the sacraments, sometimes upto a year. She should be able, with a priest’s blessing, to go to confession, and then receive communion. Waiting for confirmation is a valid excuse for the delay, it sounds like she has been told that “as an excuse” for a RCIA program’s policy.

There is really no waiting involved. If a non-Catholic Christian desires to join full communion of the Catholic Church, once the person is properly catechized/prepared, initiation (i.e. Confirmation and Eucharist) is celebrated at one liturgy. There is no waiting. This is what the RCIA directs.