How is this not heresy?

[Gab123]

They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth ,

They do adore God, the difference is that they have an incomplete and erroneous understanding of Who God is. The word “Allah” is simply the Arabic name for God, thus Middle Eastern Christians also refer to Him by that name. Protestantism has a false understanding of the Church, the Communion of Saints, Sacraments, etc. And many even preach AGAINST the Catholic Church, yet they too worship the same God.

Muslims consider Jesus Christ a prophet from God, and Mary holds a unique and exalted place in Islam as the only woman named in the Koran, which refers to her 70 times and describes her as the greatest of all women. Regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Koran states: "Oh, Mary, God has chosen you and purified you and elected you above all the women".

Archbishop Fulton Sheen wrote that the Blessed Virgin Mary, under the title of Our Lady of Fatima, will one day be instrumental in converting Muslims to Catholicism.

In his book, The World’s First Love, Archbishop Fulton J Sheen wrote “I believe that the Blessed Virgin chose to be known as Our Lady of Fatima as a pledge and a sign of hope to the Muslim people, and as an assurance that they, who show her so much respect, will one day accept her Divine Son, too.” . . . “in Africa and India and elsewhere … to the pilgrim statue of Our Lady of Fatima.” He points out that this devotion is owing to the Marian passages in the Koran itself and Muslim devotion to the name of Fatima (the name of Muhammad’s daughter)

The Koran has many references to the Blessed Virgin, including passages related to the Annunciation, her Visitation to st. Elizabeth, and the birth of Christ; Muslims also believe in her perpetual virginity, which is more than can be said about some Protestant groups.

That being said, one has to understand that the devil is out to divide, confuse and create chaos among people of good will throughout the ages. God does not judge on religions, yet to those to whom much was given, much will be required…

 

[Thomasbradley312]

The god that Muslims adore (Allah) is not the Holy Trinity

Neither is the God Jews worship a trinity. Which I believe is the article before the Muslim one in the document.
There only is one God. They do worship God in just a heretical way when you get down to it. In fact, Islam is really just the logical next step from Arianism. I mean it shares many of our beliefs, and ironically besides Muhammad; Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus are the most important prophets for them. It is in a real Christian sense a heresy, one of thousands that came before and after it made by a false prophet. This one however is different in that it wasn’t stamped out immediately or in time. I mean there’s always been a main rival to Christianity. The various forms of Gnosticism in the early Church, Manichaeism, Islam, etc etc.

 

[Frankenfurter]

St. Thomas defines heresy: “a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ corrupt its dogmas”.

Since the Muslims have not professed faith in Christ, they cannot be heretical.

But you are finding that the Church is heretical because of the highlighted portion of the text you included.

The text in no way claims that a non-Trinitarian God is the one true God. Instead it simply notes that Muslims adore the one true God. The fact that they don’t understand the Trinity does not change the identity of the God they adore. But this Trinitarian aspect of God is not mentioned in the text at all.

 

[on_the_hill]

Oh! …I get it.

Vatican II wrote a heretical document and is therefore guilty of heresy.

 

[ZMystiCat]

This really comes down to whether or not one can worship, or at least understand the existence of, God without fully understanding His nature. The Church has, clearly, taken the side that it is possible, and I think that that is consistent with Paul (Acts 17:23):

For as I walked around looking carefully at your shrines, I even discovered an altar inscribed, ‘To an Unknown God.’ What therefore you unknowingly worship, I proclaim to you.

The Athenians clearly didn’t fully understand God. He was “Unknown” in His nature to them, but Paul still recognized this as worship to God when made to this “Unknown God”. And these people had less understanding of God’s nature than Muslims do.

In the case of Arius, his fault was not only teaching falsehoods about God’s nature, but he was also teaching them in the capacity of his service to the Church, as a teacher within the Church. Muslims are, at the very least, not acting as official teachers of the Church. Obviously, though, would like them to worship God as Trinity and in communion with Christ.

 

[Godfollower]

Let’s keep in mind that we don’t fully understand God, either. Catholic theology teaches that it is impossible for man to fully know God, Who is beyond human comprehension. We’re just further along the path of understanding than Muslims and Jews (and not because of our own merit, either; but by the grace of God).

 

[catholic03]

I kindly ask for you to reconsider your stance. Us Christians know that God has revealed himself as a Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We know that this Trinity is one God, and we condemn the theological beliefs of pagans, whether Ancient Romans or modern Hindus as their belief in many Gods is objectively incorrect.

Muslims however believe in one God. Thus, they arguably maintain the most important belief - that only one powerful almighty creator (God) exists. They have a very depleted understanding of God, as they deny his Triune nature, but they still understand that he is one God rather than many.

Therefore it can be said that all monotheists - Muslims included - worship the true God despite their depleted understanding of his nature.

 

[StephenBales]

We really need a downvote function. So much heresy, so little time…

 

[Genesis315]

First, two points:

1. The belief that God is a Trinity is orthodox.
2. Claiming that a non-Trinitarian “god” (whether the Arian god, or the Sabellian god, or any other) is the true God is heresy.

By those two points, how is this statement as written not objectively heretical?

Your second point is where you err. Denying the Trinity of Persons does not mean you are talking about a different god. The one God, subsisting in Himself (“I AM”) can be known from reason, as can many of his aspects which Muslims acknowledge, but the Trinity of Persons can only be known by faith.

St. Thomas explains:

I answer that, It is impossible to attain to the knowledge of the Trinity by natural reason. For, as above explained (12, 4, 12), man cannot obtain the knowledge of God by natural reason except from creatures. Now creatures lead us to the knowledge of God, as effects do to their cause. Accordingly, by natural reason we can know of God that only which of necessity belongs to Him as the principle of things, and we have cited this fundamental principle in treating of God as above (Question 12, Article 12). Now, the creative power of God is common to the whole Trinity; and hence it belongs to the unity of the essence, and not to the distinction of the persons. Therefore, by natural reason we can know what belongs to the unity of the essence, but not what belongs to the distinction of the persons.
SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The knowledge of the divine persons (Prima Pars, Q. 32)

Therefore, we can know of God, as the Principle of all things, apart from faith, but we can only know of the Trinity with faith since it is a revealed dogma. The First Vatican Council also defined that God can be known from natural reason alone (Dei Filius, Canon 2.1) and St. Paul says, on account of this, those who do not acknowledge God (but worship idols, are atheists, etc.) are without excuse (Rom. 1:20).

The most fundamental form of adoration of God is to honor Him as Creator, which is what can be known from reason. This is the virtue of religion (which falls under justice, and is not a theological or supernatural virtue, like faith).

St. Thomas defines this virtue in the Summa as “to show reverence to one God under one aspect, namely, as the first principle of the creation and government of things.” SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Religion (Secunda Secundae Partis, Q. 81)

This is why Arianism and Sabellianism were heresies–they denied articles of faith. They were not classified as idolaters–they did not profess to adore a false god.

Muslims acknowledge one God by knowledge of His unity of essence, but who do not have faith and therefore do not acknowledge the Trinity of Persons…

 

[ReaderT]

There is only one God. They adore Him. So do we. So do Jewish people. It’s no heresy to recognize that.

Instead it simply notes that Muslims adore the one true God. The fact that they don’t understand the Trinity does not change the identity of the God they adore. But this Trinitarian aspect of God is not mentioned in the text at all.

They do adore God, the difference is that they have an incomplete and erroneous understanding of Who God is.

There only is one God. They do worship God in just a heretical way when you get down to it

Your second point is where you err. Denying the Trinity of Persons does not mean you are talking about a different god.

I think the Church is saying they worship the God of Abraham even though they don’t fully understand Him. Same with the Jews.

Therefore it can be said that all monotheists - Muslims included - worship the true God despite their depleted understanding of his nature.

To everyone directly above: if they don’t have Jesus, then they don’t have the same God as us. The Bible says that clearly: “Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father” (I John 2:23). If you claim they do have the same God, Saint John says they don’t.

…And so does our Lord. Like I said: the sine qua non for knowing the Father, is the Son: “He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me” (St. John 14:6, 9).

 

[ReaderT]

You’re saying that there are two gods — ours and the Muslims’

Absolutely not. I don’t believe the Muslim god exists at all, any more than Zeus or Gandalf. I didn’t say there were two gods.

There is only one God.

I agree emphatically! And that God is the Holy, Consubstantial and Indivisible Trinity. And anyone who doesn’t worship Him, is worshipping a fiction. Or a demon. Or themselves.

As a general rule, when you find your reasoning conflicting with the statements of Holy Mother Church, it’s a good idea to question whether the heresy might be in your reasoning.

I don’t believe in the Roman Catholic Church. I am Orthodox…

Are you speaking here your opinion or the official position of the Eastern Orthodox? If the latter, please show us the document where the EO declares Islam a Christian heresy.

Please refer to Post 1: I’m not discussing whether or not Islam is a Christian heresy; I said the Statement in Nostra Aetate was heretical.

Muslims consider Jesus Christ a prophet from God, and Mary holds a unique and exalted place in Islam as the only woman named in the Koran

And many people say “Jesus was a good person” (even ones who support gay marriage, abortion, and pre-marital sex!) so clearly that doesn’t get us very far.

The text in no way claims that a non-Trinitarian God is the one true God.

It does though:

1. The “god” Muslims worship is not Trinitarian
2. It says the “god Muslims adore” is the “one God … all-powerful … the Creator” (i.e. the true God)
3. Therefore, by substitution, it says “this (non-Trinity) god is all-powerful, the Creator…”

I can’t fathom how you guys don’t have a problem with this.

 

[ReaderT]

The Athenians clearly didn’t fully understand God. He was “Unknown” in His nature to them, but Paul still recognized this as worship to God when made to this “Unknown God”. And these people had less understanding of God’s nature than Muslims do.

Ironically, the Greeks got “Agnosto Theo” (the Unknown God) right: God’s nature can’t be fully known, fully understood or defined. That title is one that even our Russian theologians would agree with.

Let’s keep in mind that we don’t fully understand God, either. Catholic theology teaches that it is impossible for man to fully know God, Who is beyond human comprehension.

I agree that it’s impossible to fully comprehend God. The Orthodox have this too (apophatic theology). But that’s not the topic of the thread.

Muslims however believe in one God. Thus, they arguably maintain the most important belief - that only one powerful almighty creator (God) exists. They have a very depleted understanding of God, as they deny his Triune nature, but they still understand that he is one God rather than many.

How is the oneness of God the most important belief? How is that more important than the entire existence of God the Son, which they deny? How could we separate God the Father from the Son when Jesus Christ affirms I and the Father are One (St. John 10:30); and (as I said above), Saint John says: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father (I John 2:23).

 

[ReaderT]

That is my point, and that is why Christ had to be revealed. If we condemn others where they are, their heels will only be dug in more deeply, and we will have lost them. I’d rather not answer for that.

The Early Christians will gladly answer for their work, when they defined, Council after Council, where orthodox faith stands. They did not let even a single letter enter the Creed if it was wrong. They would be incredulous if they saw this statement from Vatican 2. True Christians don’t fudge orthodoxy for anything.

Could he see this before the Incarnation? If so, why not a peep about “Jesus of Nazareth”? All of Israel was waiting, century upon century, for the Messiah. Did they have a realistic concept of Him? No.

Have you read the Old Testament? Christ is everywhere! The entire OT shouts out “Jesus of Nazareth”: David prophesies about him in almost every other Psalm (here are 16 references we found in one sitting), Abraham “not withholding his son, his only son” but being willing to sacrifice him, Moses stretching out his hands in the form of a Cross, Jacob blessing his offspring by using the Cross… the entire OT shouts His name.

The entire Jewish Temple is one big message about Jesus:

The Holy Bread - Holy Communion
The Laver Pool = Baptism
The Ten Commandments = The Word of God = Jesus Christ
(contained in) The Man-made Ark = the (human) Virgin Mary, who contained Christ in her womb
The Altar of Sacrifice = the Cross
The First-Born Gate = The Incarnation
etc. etc. etc.

 

[ReaderT]

Can you provide the text from your bible? Mine (NABRE) says “angel of God” Dan 3:49

KJV Daniel 3:25
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Also, for some reason, it seems only the Roman Catholic bible has a “Daniel 3:49” - the KJV and Protestants don’t apparently; I’ll check my Septuagint later.

Read on, @ReaderT! You’ll find your question answered in Gen 19:1. One of the three “men” is God and the other two are angels.

Perhaps I’m mistaken about what the Orthodox teach about the Hospitality of Abraham; at any rate, we believe Jesus appeared to him from other passages (see response to Divine3 directly below)

There is no time line when “Abraham rejoiced to see My day.”. We don’t know how he saw it. Was it a future vision? There is no mention of the Holy Spirit either.

The book of Genesis says that"God" appeared to Abraham (Gen 17.1), but in other places it says “Word of God” came to him (Gen 15:4). Orthodox interpret this to mean “The Word of God” as in “Jesus Christ” (John 1:1). We don’t view the difference of terms as arbitrary, and like someone else said, God doesn’t change, so if Abraham knew God, then He must have known the Trinity.

 

[Gab123]

[

if they don’t have Jesus, then they don’t have the same God as us. The Bible says that clearly: “Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father” (I John 2:23).

It’s one thing to reject Jesus, it’s another thing to not know Christ or grasp the theology of the Church. As the Catechism of the Church teaches:

The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”

. . . To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.

 

[Emeraldlady]

po18guy:

That is my point, and that is why Christ had to be revealed. If we condemn others where they are, their heels will only be dug in more deeply, and we will have lost them. I’d rather not answer for that.

The Early Christians will gladly answer for their work, when they defined, Council after Council, where orthodox faith stands. They did not let even a single letter enter the Creed if it was wrong. They would be incredulous if they saw this statement from Vatican 2. True Christians don’t fudge orthodoxy for anything.

Could he see this before the Incarnation? If so, why not a peep about “Jesus of Nazareth”? All of Israel was waiting, century upon century, for the Messiah. Did they have a realistic concept of Him? No.

Have you read the Old Testament? Christ is everywhere! The entire OT shouts out “Jesus of Nazareth”: David prophesies about him in almost every other Psalm (here are 16 references we found in one sitting), Abraham “not withholding his son, his only son” but being willing to sacrifice him, Moses stretching out his hands in the form of a Cross, Jacob blessing his offspring by using the Cross… the entire OT shouts His name.

The entire Jewish Temple is one big message about Jesus:

The Holy Bread - Holy Communion
The Laver Pool = Baptism
The Ten Commandments = The Word of God = Jesus Christ
(contained in) The Man-made Ark = the (human) Virgin Mary, who contained Christ in her womb
The Altar of Sacrifice = the Cross
The First-Born Gate = The Incarnation
etc. etc. etc.

But that doesn’t amount to Abraham believing in the doctrine of the Trinity. Here are 19 references from the OT stressing the imperative of believing that there is only One God and no other. The Jewish teachers especialy the Pharisees had a huge problem with Jesus claim that He is the Son of God. Both the Jews and Muslims still await the Messiah but as yet have no concept of the Triune God.

 

[catholic03]

I think you misunderstand that as there is only one God, if you worship one God then you are worshipping the true God. Even the ancient Greeks worshipped the true God, according to apologist Jimmy Akin. This is because they prayed to and offered up sacrifices to an ‘unknown’ God, who is the one true God.

Essentially, as long as you understand that their is one God, you are worshipping God regardless of your depleted understanding.

 

[Thomasbradley312]

To everyone directly above: if they don’t have Jesus, then they don’t have the same God as us.

I guess this will show you that they do have Jesus. Here are references to him in the Qur’an.

2:87 We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit.

2:136 We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them . . .

2:253 . . . To Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit.

3:45 O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.

3:46 “He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous.”

3:48 And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel.

3:49 And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): “I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah’s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah’s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe.”

3:50 (I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

3:52 When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: “Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?”

3:55 Behold! Allah said: “O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.”

Continued…

 

[Thomasbradley312]

5:17 In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary.

5:46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

5:72 They do blaspheme who say: “Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode.

5:75 Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food.

5:78 Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses.

5:110 O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: ‘This is nothing but evident magic.’

5:112 Behold! the disciples, said: “O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?” Said Jesus: “Fear Allah, if ye have faith.”

5:114 Said Jesus the son of Mary: “O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us-for the first and the last of us-a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs).”

5:116 Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart . . .”

6:85 And Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias: all in the ranks of the righteous.

9:30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah.

 

[Thomasbradley312]

19:31 “And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live.”

19:32 “(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable.”

19:33 “So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!”

19:34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

19:88 They say: “(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!”

19:91 That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious.

19:92 For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

21:91 And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples.

23:50 And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs.

33:7 And remember We took from the prophets their covenant: As (We did) from thee: from Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary: We took from them a solemn covenant.

42:13 The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah-the which We have sent by inspiration to thee-and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).

43:57 When (Jesus) the son of Mary is held up as an example, behold, thy people raise a clamour thereat (in ridicule)!

43:61 And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.

43:63 When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: “Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.”

57:27 We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy . . .

61:6 And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: “O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.” But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, “this is evident sorcery!”

61:14 O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, “Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?” Said the disciples, “We are Allah’s helpers!” then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed.