How is virtue possible in a sinful world?

[andyklein]

In a world where sin is the basis for society, how can one obtain virtue?

If one participates in this kind of world, has one consented to it?

When one consents to this kind of world, is he/she a culprit in its sin?

 

[edwest2]

In a world where sin is the basis for society, how can one obtain virtue?

If one participates in this kind of world, has one consented to it?

When one consents to this kind of world, is he/she a culprit in its sin?

1. Pray, ask God to guide you. Know and follow the Commandments and the teachings of the Church.
2. With a liquor store on almost every street corner, and strip clubs and other sinful/immoral places, avoid them. Avoid most media. Find a hobby and places to go that do not offend God.
3. The road to destruction is wide, the Bible tells us. When you consent, confess your sin and pray for strength.

Trust in God,

Ed

 

[ClearWater]

How does one obtain virtue? Through God, the only source of virtue.

Prayer, asking God to grant us grace, virtue, to assist, strengthen us.

 

[andyklein]

1. Pray, ask God to guide you. Know and follow the Commandments and the teachings of the Church.
2. With a liquor store on almost every street corner, and strip clubs and other sinful/immoral places, avoid them. Avoid most media. Find a hobby and places to go that do not offend God.
3. The road to destruction is wide, the Bible tells us. When you consent, confess your sin and pray for strength.

Trust in God,

Ed

So participation is consent and it is sin?

Our only option is to leave this “world” to obtain virtue?

 

[Dorothy]

Yes, virtue is possible in this sinful world. God’s grace is always available to us.

Jesus prayed that we would be in the world, but not of the world.

We need to pray, and take advantage of the Sacraments…we need the foundation of a solid prayer life so that we will receive the graces the Lord wants to give us in the sacraments.

 

[oldgraymare2]

Hi Andy,

I try and think of it this way, where I can still be in this world but I don’t have to do what everybody else does, regarding those who practice a more secular lifestyle.

I can try my best not to sin, and if I do, I can ask for God’s forgiveness. The Sacraments are there to help us.

I will pray for an increase in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, if I feel that I need help in a particular area. I will pray for an increase for a particular gift. For example, I may feel that I need some more guidance in my life, and I may then pray more for the gift of Wisdom, for example.

I may just say a simple prayer and ask to be more wise, for example, if I felt like I didn’t use my best judgment in a particular situation, didn’t put God first when I should have, etc. Something like that.

God gives HIs gifts freely to those who ask, out of love for us. He will help you to live as holy a life as possible, while you are right here on Earth.

I keep focused on The Lord and his Church. I keep focused on everything that the Church gives us, to help us, too.

We have Mass, we have Adoration. We have Our Blessed Mother, St. Joseph and all of the Angels and Saints to help us.

We have the Bible. We have devotional readings and websites to look at too, if that helps you. Things like the Saint of the Day, the Vatican, the Catechism, etc., and we have forums like Catholic Answers.

We have Sacramentals to use like the Rosary, Holy Water, Medals, the Scapular, and Relics, for example, too.

I use all of these things to help me the best that I can, in my daily life.

 

[tonyrey]

It is an exaggeration to state that sin is the basis for society or even that the world is literally sinful. God’s Creation is good and we have the capacity for virtue. Even though we are the victims of our ancestors’ vices we are not compelled to follow in their footsteps. In spite of our ignorance and weakness we still have free will and our God-given power to resist temptation.

But virtue alone is not enough to reach heaven…

 

[edwest2]

So participation is consent and it is sin?

Our only option is to leave this “world” to obtain virtue?

We must avoid immoral places and immoral TV and movies. We must be virtuous in our behavior - no cussing and swearing, no porn, no dope or booze. Most of us need to learn virtue. The things that sustain us in virtue are faith, hope and charity. The media will tell you that you and worldly pleasures are all that matter. We need to remember the hungry, the homeless, the lost and forgotten. But that doesn’t mean we can’t have good, clean fun. God gave us a day of rest on Sunday. Stores used to be closed. Families and friends enjoyed each other’s company. If we do what most people do who claim they don’t mind what the media gives them, remember this:

biblehub.com/james/4-4.htm

Peace,
Ed

 

[tonyrey]

Hi Andy,

I try and think of it this way, where I can still be in this world but I don’t have to do what everybody else does, regarding those who practice a more secular lifestyle.

I can try my best not to sin, and if I do, I can ask for God’s forgiveness. The Sacraments are there to help us.

I will pray for an increase in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, if I feel that I need help in a particular area. I will pray for an increase for a particular gift. For example, I may feel that I need some more guidance in my life, and I may then pray more for the gift of Wisdom, for example.

I may just say a simple prayer and ask to be more wise, for example, if I felt like I didn’t use my best judgment in a particular situation, didn’t put God first when I should have, etc. Something like that.

God gives HIs gifts freely to those who ask, out of love for us. He will help you to live as holy a life as possible, while you are right here on Earth.

I keep focused on The Lord and his Church. I keep focused on everything that the Church gives us, to help us, too.

We have Mass, we have Adoration. We have Our Blessed Mother, St. Joseph and all of the Angels and Saints to help us.

We have the Bible. We have devotional readings and websites to look at too, if that helps you. Things like the Saint of the Day, the Vatican, the Catechism, etc., and we have forums like Catholic Answers.

We have Sacramentals to use like the Rosary, Holy Water, Medals, the Scapular, and Relics, for example, too.

I use all of these things to help me the best that I can, in my daily life.

All the blessings of being a Catholic…

 

[Beryllos]

In a world where sin is the basis for society, how can one obtain virtue?

It is an exaggeration to state that sin is the basis for society …

Indeed, even in the secular world there can be law, cooperation, truthfulness, and love.

Many times, and in many ways, Jesus taught how we can participate in society – not only that, but how we can make things better here on earth: caring for the needy, caring for children, forgiving one another seventy times seven times, loving your enemy, not serving mammon, and more. The good news of the Gospel concerns both earthly and eternal life.

Jesus instructs and commands us to work in the world and in society, associating with sinners, as he did, doing what we can to make the world more peaceful and more virtuous.

“You are the light of the world. A city built on a hill cannot be hid. No one after lighting a lamp puts it under the bushel basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven.”

 

[tonyrey]

Indeed, even in the secular world there can be law, cooperation, truthfulness, and love.

Many times, and in many ways, Jesus taught how we can participate in society – not only that, but how we can make things better here on earth: caring for the needy, caring for children, forgiving one another seventy times seven times, loving your enemy, not serving mammon, and more. The good news of the Gospel concerns both earthly and eternal life.

Jesus instructs and commands us to work in the world and in society, associating with sinners, as he did, doing what we can to make the world more peaceful and more virtuous.
“You are the light of the world. A city built on a hill cannot be hid. No one after lighting a lamp puts it under the bushel basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven.”

Nor should we assume that non-Christians never do what they can to make the world more peaceful and more virtuous.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

andy

Do I detect that your world at present is a world dominated by the bad guys?

If so, try your best to move away from them and toward the good guys.

It is so easy for us to be discouraged when surrounded by evildoers, and so easy for us to be encouraged by living with and working among the saints of God.

 

[edwest2]

andy

Do I detect that your world at present is a world dominated by the bad guys?

If so, try your best to move away from them and toward the good guys.

It is so easy for us to be discouraged when surrounded by evildoers, and so easy for us to be encouraged by living with and working among the saints of God.

Amen.

Ed

 

[andyklein]

andy

Do I detect that your world at present is a world dominated by the bad guys?

If so, try your best to move away from them and toward the good guys.

It is so easy for us to be discouraged when surrounded by evildoers, and so easy for us to be encouraged by living with and working among the saints of God.

This really wasn’t meant to be an advice thread. I just wanted to start a philosophical discussion over the questions in the OP.

But I’m not saying that the “world” is intrinsically evil. I’m leaning towards the idea that modern western society is encourages sin by means of mass media and the power of the dollar and sin itself is what builds this society, maintains it, and we are culpable because we participate in, consent to, and attempt to rise through this society. That sound fair or crazy?

 

[tonyrey]

This really wasn’t meant to be an advice thread. I just wanted to start a philosophical discussion over the questions in the OP.

But I’m not saying that the “world” is intrinsically evil. I’m leaning towards the idea that modern western society is encourages sin by means of mass media and the power of the dollar and sin itself is what builds this society, maintains it, and we are culpable because we participate in, consent to, and attempt to rise through this society. That sound fair or crazy?

We are not culpable because we cannot opt out of society! In fact those who attempt to do so often fall foul of the law - like Christians who wear a cross at work, do not accept gay couples in their guest house or do not recommend them as foster parents. The Catholic Children’s Society in the UK has been compelled to close down because otherwise it would be considered guilty of discrimination.

 

[Beryllos]

… I’m leaning towards the idea that modern western society is encourages sin by means of mass media and the power of the dollar and sin itself is what builds this society, maintains it, and we are culpable because we participate in, consent to, and attempt to rise through this society. That sound fair or crazy?

Not fair. Not crazy. I would say that viewpoint is colored, that is to say selective and distorted. Certainly there is sin, and the media and money have great influence in modern society, but that is not “what builds it,” or, as you wrote earlier, “the basis for society.” I wrote earlier that there is a place in our society for law, cooperation, truthfulness, and love. There is also pride, greed, pleasure-seeking, and narcissism. Our society is a mixture of good and bad.

Charlemagne III wrote “move away from [the bad guys] and toward the good guys.” That could mean to look for the good in our society, to work on the side of good, to be a good influence in our society (shining a light in the darkness). If you participate in that way in our good-and-bad society, you are not consenting to the evil, you are not promoting evil, and you do not share culpability for the evils of society. For all you know, you might save another soul (1 Corinthians 7:16).

 

[andyklein]

We are not culpable because we cannot opt out of society! In fact those who attempt to do so often fall foul of the law - like Christians who wear a cross at work, do not accept gay couples in their guest house or do not recommend them as foster parents. The Catholic Children’s Society in the UK has been compelled to close down because otherwise it would be considered guilty of discrimination.

Does that mean that it is impossible to escape from society? So we are sort “enslaved” by society and society determines many aspects of our lives?

 

[andyklein]

Not fair. Not crazy. I would say that viewpoint is colored, that is to say selective and distorted. Certainly there is sin, and the media and money have great influence in modern society, but that is not “what builds it,” or, as you wrote earlier, “the basis for society.” I wrote earlier that there is a place in our society for law, cooperation, truthfulness, and love. There is also pride, greed, pleasure-seeking, and narcissism. Our society is a mixture of good and bad.

Charlemagne III wrote “move away from [the bad guys] and toward the good guys.” That could mean to look for the good in our society, to work on the side of good, to be a good influence in our society (shining a light in the darkness). If you participate in that way in our good-and-bad society, you are not consenting to the evil, you are not promoting evil, and you do not share culpability for the evils of society. For all you know, you might save another soul (1 Corinthians 7:16).

If we must participate in society, then we can’t run away from the influence of money and the media. And since these things represent the highest influence in society, aspects we can’t escape from, then the foundation of society is these things, which also represent evil. So society is represented by evil, and if we do have free will in this society, then we have a choice whether to accept this evil or to reject it. Rejecting it means not participating in it. So we are culpable, at least somewhat, in maintaining its sin.

 

[fhansen]

In a world where sin is the basis for society, how can one obtain virtue?

If one participates in this kind of world, has one consented to it?

When one consents to this kind of world, is he/she a culprit in its sin?

We’ll find-we know-both good and evil in this world. As we turn to God, with the help of His grace we can come to choose the good alone. From the catechism:
**
409 This dramatic situation of "the whole world [which] is in the power of the evil one"302 makes man’s life a battle:
The whole of man’s history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God’s grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.

1707 "Man, enticed by the Evil One, abused his freedom at the very beginning of history."10 He succumbed to temptation and did what was evil. He still desires the good, but his nature bears the wound of original sin. He is now inclined to evil and subject to error:
Man is divided in himself. As a result, the whole life of men, both individual and social, shows itself to be a struggle, and a dramatic one, between good and evil, between light and darkness.11**

 

[Beryllos]

If we must participate in society, then we can’t run away from the influence of money and the media. And since these things represent the highest influence in society, aspects we can’t escape from, then the foundation of society is these things, which also represent evil. So society is represented by evil, and if we do have free will in this society, then we have a choice whether to accept this evil or to reject it. Rejecting it means not participating in it. So we are culpable, at least somewhat, in maintaining its sin.

I respectfully disagree. In fact, I disagree with almost everything you just wrote. I may not have time to counter every point, and I am beginning to realize that I’m not going to convince you of anything, but anyway here are the highlights:

We do not have to bow down before the media. To a large extent, we can choose the media and the content. Case in point: I do not have a television. Thereby, in one stroke, I have eliminated the most powerful and deadly prong of the media, along with its sponsors. In this regard, I do not see myself as a revolutionary or a dropout. I just have no need or desire for television. I get most of the information I need from the internet, where I can select the source and the type of content. And while the internet is also a source of entertainment and recreation for me, it’s not my primary source.

I don’t think we have the option to drop out of the economy. Indeed, we have to earn money and spend it, but we do not have to worship it. Jesus said “Render unto Caesar” and so on. He said that we should not put our faith in money or rely on it to provide for all we need. He said not to worry about what we shall eat or wear tomorrow. I think this applies as well to retirement accounts and college savings plans. Sure, I save money and plan for the future, but I am not losing sleep over it. If the stock market goes up or down, I could hardly care less.

Nobody is forcing you to buy all the luxuries on offer. The latest iPhone? Forget it. Sports car? Luxury car? Not gonna happen. Oversized house, furnished in style like you see on TV? Nope. Dream vacation? (yawn) I think I live well, but I don’t need all that stuff. You don’t have to drop out of society, and you don’t even have to be a hermit, in order to just say “No, thank you.” You have the option to live modestly, and to live within your means.