How Jesus could fail to convince the Evil if he has the power to perform miracle?

[Bahman]

Jesus apparently performed miracles to show his divinity to people. There are verses on Bible which show that he either was no able to perform any miracle or he didn’t have the authority which is contrary to other parts which claim that he performed miracles.

1Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

2After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.

3The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

4Jesus answered, “It is written:** ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'b **”

This means that Father has authority over Jesus.

Moreover, wasn’t Jest God himself? So what the bold part could ever mean?

5Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.

6“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“ ‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’c ”

7Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’d ”

This means that Jesus didn’t have any power to perform any miracle.

Moreover, wasn’t Jest God himself? So what the bold part could ever mean?

 

[meltzerboy]

Jesus apparently performed miracles to show his divinity to people. There are verses on Bible which show that he either was no able to perform any miracle or he didn’t have the authority which is contrary to other parts which claim that he performed miracles.

This means that Father has authority over Jesus.

Moreover, wasn’t Jest God himself? So what the bold part could ever mean?

This means that Jesus didn’t have any power to perform any miracle.

Moreover, wasn’t Jest God himself? So what the bold part could ever mean?

I really don’t see how either of these verses refutes the divinity of Jesus. Remember that Christians believe in a Trinitarian G-d, so that Jesus is not talking to Himself but rather to the Person of G-d the Father. It is also important to keep in mind that Jesus is BOTH divine and human according to Christian teaching. Further, we should not test G-d because it is G-d’s will, not ours, that we must conform to. It is not for us to tell G-d when or how to perform His miracles. Finally, according to the teachings of the Torah, the performance of miracles is not the test of divinity. In fact, in Deuteronomy, Moses warns the people that they should be wary of those who perform miracles in the name of G-d.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I really don’t see how either of these verses refutes the divinity of Jesus. Remember that Christians believe in a Trinitarian G-d, so that Jesus is not talking to Himself but rather to the Person of G-d the Father. It is also important to keep in mind that Jesus is BOTH divine and human according to Christian teaching. Further, we should not test G-d because it is G-d’s will, not ours, that we must conform to. It is not for us to tell G-d when or how to perform His miracles. Finally, according to the teachings of the Torah, the performance of miracles is not the test of divinity. In fact, in Deuteronomy, Moses warns the people that they should be wary of those who perform miracles in the name of G-d.

I agree with you that neither passage refutes Jesus’ divinity, but respectfully disagree that he was talking to the Father. Jesus was talking to Satan who was tempting him. Jesus led a totally sinless life. He could not sin, but in his full humanity, he could be tempted.

In the first passage, I believe that Jesus is saying that we do not live by fulfilling our physical and material needs alone and that our spiritual life is just as important, maybe more so than our physical life.

In the second, he’s simply telling Satan that it is written in the Hebrew Scriptures that one should never put God to the test, something Satan is attempting to do.

Thank you for providing the part about Moses’ warning. I think that’s important. Fallen spirits can sometimes perform miracles as well.

To the OP, Jesus performed miracles on his own authority. That is one way in which he differed from the prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures.

 

[Bahman]

I really don’t see how either of these verses refutes the divinity of Jesus. Remember that Christians believe in a Trinitarian G-d, so that Jesus is not talking to Himself but rather to the Person of G-d the Father.

According to Christian belief the tree persons of Trinity are united so they share the same thoughts and they are also divine beings. The first verse ** "Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God " ** exactly means that Father (God) has higher authority compared to Jesus (Man) otherwise he was not dependent on word of Father. The second verse “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’d ” exactly means that He (Jesus) did not have any power to perform any miracle. The meaning of not putting your God on the test is that you shall fail if you do otherwise.

It is also important to keep in mind that Jesus is BOTH divine and human according to Christian teaching.

I have no idea what does even mean. How God could be inside his image?

Further, we should not test G-d because it is G-d’s will, not ours, that we must conform to. It is not for us to tell G-d when or how to perform His miracles.

Why not?

Finally, according to the teachings of the Torah, the performance of miracles is not the test of divinity. In fact, in Deuteronomy, Moses warns the people that they should be wary of those who perform miracles in the name of G-d.

Weren’t performing the miracles a proof for Jesus divinity?

 

[Lily_Bernans]

There is One God, but three Persons. The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. All are, however, One God. One is not above the others. God cannot be above himself. In his humanity, of course, the Father was above Jesus, however not in his divinity.

 

[Bahman]

I agree with you that neither passage refutes Jesus’ divinity, but respectfully disagree that he was talking to the Father. Jesus was talking to Satan who was tempting him. Jesus led a totally sinless life. He could not sin, but in his full humanity, he could be tempted.

Man is Jesus in those verses and God is Father if you read the versus carefully. So those verses exactly mean that Jesus neither have the authority nor the power to perform any miracle. Please read post #3 for further explanation. Moreover why Satan should bother on tempting Jesus knowing that he is God, sinless?

In the first passage, I believe that Jesus is saying that we do not live by fulfilling our physical and material needs alone and that our spiritual life is just as important, maybe more so than our physical life.

Your interpretation is wrong since Jesus was Man who was fasting in wilderness. The man is refer to Jesus in the rest of verses.

In the second, he’s simply telling Satan that it is written in the Hebrew Scriptures that one should never put God to the test, something Satan is attempting to do.

Again man is Jesus and God is Father if you read the versus carefully.

Thank you for providing the part about Moses’ warning. I think that’s important. Fallen spirits can sometimes perform miracles as well.

How one can approve that Jesus miracles really belong to him then!?

To the OP, Jesus performed miracles on his own authority. That is one way in which he differed from the prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures.

I don’t think so. Please read previous comments.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Man is Jesus in those verses and God is Father if you read the versus carefully. So those verses exactly mean that Jesus neither have the authority nor the power to perform any miracle. Please read post #3 for further explanation. Moreover why Satan should bother on tempting Jesus knowing that he is God, sinless?

Your interpretation is wrong since Jesus was Man who was fasting in wilderness. The man is refer to Jesus in the rest of verses.

Again man is Jesus and God is Father if you read the versus carefully.

How one can approve that Jesus miracles really belong to him then!?

I don’t think so. Please read previous comments.

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I appreciate it, but I guess we just have to disagree. We can’t agree on everything! LOL Have a wonderful day.

 

[Bahman]

There is One God, but three Persons. The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. All are, however, One God. One is not above the others. God cannot be above himself. In his humanity, of course, the Father was above Jesus, however not in his divinity.

I have no idea what you are talking about? One need to be inside God’s image in order to take human nature! How God could be inside his own image? How Jesus as God could be above and below himself at the same time?

 

[Bahman]

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I appreciate it, but I guess we just have to disagree. We can’t agree on everything! LOL Have a wonderful day.

What!?

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I have no idea what you are talking about? One need to be inside God’s image in order to take human nature! How God could be inside his own image? How Jesus as God could be above and below himself at the same time?

In Roman Catholic theology (and some others), the Holy Trinity is a divine mystery, meaning that we cannot figure it out on our own, God must reveal it to us.

Christianity is one of the “big three” monotheistic religions, along with Judaism and Islam. In Christianity, there is One God, but three Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. None of the three persons is the other two, but all are One God. It was God the Son who took on human flesh and was born in Bethlehem. The Father and the Holy Spirit did not.

Jesus, in his Incarnation, was both fully human and fully divine. He was unique in human history in that he was a man and he was God. He did not “give up” his divinity to become a man. You have probably read of Jesus praying to his Father in heaven. That is God the Son praying to God the Father. After his Resurrection and Ascension into heaven, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to dwell with the Apostles.

Jesus was not above and below at the same time. When he was on earth, he was below, though he was still God. When he prayed, he prayed to God the Father, who did not take on human flesh and become man.

The doctrine of the Trinity is one of the most complicated in theology. It’s impossible to go into all of it on a DB. Entire books have been written about it! But what you are asking is possible because God is Three Persons in One God.

One book that explains the doctrine of the Trinity in a non-scholarly way is The One Thing is Three by Fr. Michael Gaitley.

I hope that helped. I wish you peace and joy.

 

[Bahman]

In Roman Catholic theology (and some others), the Holy Trinity is a divine mystery, meaning that we cannot figure it out on our own, God must reveal it to us.

Christianity is one of the “big three” monotheistic religions, along with Judaism and Islam. In Christianity, there is One God, but three Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. None of the three persons is the other two, but all are One God. It was God the Son who took on human flesh and was born in Bethlehem. The Father and the Holy Spirit did not.

Jesus, in his Incarnation, was both fully human and fully divine. He was unique in human history in that he was a man and he was God. He did not “give up” his divinity to become a man. You have probably read of Jesus praying to his Father in heaven. That is God the Son praying to God the Father. After his Resurrection and Ascension into heaven, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to dwell with the Apostles.

Jesus was not above and below at the same time. When he was on earth, he was below, though he was still God. When he prayed, he prayed to God the Father, who did not take on human flesh and become man.

The doctrine of the Trinity is one of the most complicated in theology. It’s impossible to go into all of it on a DB. Entire books have been written about it! But what you are asking is possible because God is Three Persons in One God.

I hope that helped. I wish you peace and joy.

I know all these stories. Mystery could also be related to a paradoxical situation you could not resolve it, so you just hide the paradox by calling that it is a mystery! Again: One need to be inside God’s image in order to take human nature! How God could be inside his own image? How Jesus as God could be above and below himself at the same time?

Could you please explain how such a situation is possible?

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I know all these stories. Mystery could also be related to a paradoxical situation you could not resolve it, so you just hide the paradox by calling that it is a mystery! Again: One need to be inside God’s image in order to take human nature! How God could be inside his own image? How Jesus as God could be above and below himself at the same time?

Could you please explain how such a situation is possible?

Okay, good that you already know part of this.

I don’t understand your question clearly, and that may be because it’s very late where I am, and I’m tired. I’ll think about it and maybe tomorrow I can answer. Maybe a more enlightened poster will come along and give you a better answer, too.

 

[Bahman]

Okay, good that you already know part of this.

I don’t understand your question clearly, and that may be because it’s very late where I am, and I’m tired. I’ll think about it and maybe tomorrow I can answer. Maybe a more enlightened poster will come along and give you a better answer, too.

Please also consider the following question under your consideration:
Your quote: “Fallen spirits can sometimes perform miracles as well.”
My question: “How one can approve that Jesus miracles really belong to him then!?”

 

[St_Francis]

I know all these stories. Mystery could also be related to a paradoxical situation you could not resolve it, so you just hide the paradox by calling that it is a mystery! Again: One need to be inside God’s image in order to take human nature! How God could be inside his own image? How Jesus as God could be above and below himself at the same time?

Could you please explain how such a situation is possible?

We are made-in the image of God, this does not mean that we are inside of His image. It’s like when someone says a little girl is the image of her mother: she resembles her mother greatly.

Wrt your first post: Christ was addressing the devil, but did not reveal His divinity to the devil. Nothing He said indicates that He is not God, only that He was telling the devil that.

And yes, Christ *could *have performed a miracle and made the devil love Him, but He choses to allow His creatures (creatures meaning the beings He created) to have free will in the matter. He is respecting the devil’s decision.

 

[meltzerboy]

I have no idea what you are talking about? One need to be inside God’s image in order to take human nature! How God could be inside his own image? How Jesus as God could be above and below himself at the same time?

This is called the hypostatic union and is one of the mysteries of Christianity, together with the Trinity itself. However, G-d’s nature and existence are a mystery within virtually all religions. When you think about this, how could it be otherwise for if it were, we would be godlike in our understanding of G-d.

 

[Nita]

In fact, in Deuteronomy, Moses warns the people that they should be wary of those who perform miracles in the name of G-d.

Could you provide the passage? I just don’t recall such a warning - and a word search on “miracles” and “signs” didn’t show anything.
Thanks

 

[meltzerboy]

Could you provide the passage? I just don’t recall such a warning - and a word search on “miracles” and “signs” didn’t show anything.
Thanks

Yes, the topic is discussed by Moses in Deuteronomy 13: 2-6.

 

[Bahman]

We are made-in the image of God, this does not mean that we are inside of His image. It’s like when someone says a little girl is the image of her mother: she resembles her mother greatly.

I don’t agree with your interpretation. Let see what Bible says: So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. To me it is clear that in means inside. So the picture of Jesus being in his own image is wrong to my understanding. You can find that Paul Kurts agrees with me in his book.

Wrt your first post: Christ was addressing the devil, but did not reveal His divinity to the devil. Nothing He said indicates that He is not God, only that He was telling the devil that.

You didn’t read the verses carefully. Jesus is the Man and God is the Father. Try to read the verses again, think throughly and see what do they mean.

And yes, Christ *could *have performed a miracle and made the devil love Him, but He choses to allow His creatures (creatures meaning the beings He created) to have free will in the matter. He is respecting the devil’s decision.

What do you mean? Jesus perform miracles to convinced people about his divinity. Why first Satan should ask him to perform another miracle for him? Second, why Jesus didn’t perform another miracle for Satan if Satan was Jesus’s creature? Third, what has free will to do with performing miracles?

 

[Bahman]

This is called the hypostatic union and is one of the mysteries of Christianity, together with the Trinity itself. However, G-d’s nature and existence are a mystery within virtually all religions. When you think about this, how could it be otherwise for if it were, we would be godlike in our understanding of G-d.

There is no mystery here. The picture is clearly contradictory. God (Jesus) cannot possibly be inside his own image since God’s image is different from God, could be creation for example.

 

[Nita]

…*3The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

No. It means that “life/living” encompasses far more than just physical life and supplying for physical necessities.

Jesus quotes Deut. 8:3 to Satan as a response to Satan’s temptation to perform a miracle in order for Him (Jesus) to satisfy His physical hunger.
Since Jesus’ words are a Scripture passage, it’s a good idea to read the Deuteronomy section to get the context for those words. Interesting. It has to do with how manna was miraculously sent by God when it was the Divine will that the physical hunger of the people should be provided for. In their desert wanderings, God provided for physical needs without any physical participation on their, or Moses’ part. The context of the Deut 8:3 quote is about those times. (Manna just fell from heaven; their shoes did not wear out; their feet did not swell.)

So, by quoting that particular passage to Satan, Jesus is probably telling Satan that if it is in accord with the Divine will (which is more important than satisfying physical hunger) that He eat while still in the desert, then food would have been Divinely provided as it was for the Israelites in the desert. Taking an earthly stone and miraculously turning it into bread is just totally unnecessary.
And since no bread was miraculously provided it should be obvious to Satan that such provision was not part of the Divine will.

Moreover wasn’t Jest God Himself? So what the bold part could ever mean?

Yes Jesus is God. It is precisely because He is God that He knows turning a stone into bread to satisfy physical hunger is not the Divine Will.

*5Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.

6"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:

"?‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that
will not strike your foot against a stone.’c "

7Jesus answered him, "It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’d "*

This means that Jesus didn’t have any power to perform any miracle.

You mean because He didn’t throw Himself down? If so, that certainly doesn’t show He didn’t have the power to miraculously save Himself. It just shows that He chose not to do so.
For example, if you ask me to do something (cook a meal) and I say “No”, it doesn’t mean I’m unable to do so, it just means I choose not to for some reason.

Moreover, wasn’t Jest God himself? So what the bold part could ever mean?

Again, yes Jesus is God - and Satan suspected as much, but he wasn’t sure. That’s why he issued the challenge - “**If **you are the Son of God,…”

What it means is that we creatures (human or angelic) are not to issue challenges to God that He miraculously prove Himself and/or His powers. We are not to test Him for that purpose.