How Jesus could fail to convince the Evil if he has the power to perform miracle?

[Nita]

Yes, the topic is discussed by Moses in Deuteronomy 13: 2-6.

Thanks again.
Such an important passage - especially in this day and age.

 

[St_Francis]

I don’t agree with your interpretation. Let see what Bible says: So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. To me it is clear that in means inside. So the picture of Jesus being in his own image is wrong to my understanding. You can find that Paul Kurts agrees with me in his book.

Which is why a Church with authority to interpret is necessary.

So Kurts has this idea (which I was unable to read)–why listen to him as opposed to learning what the apostles and their students said? Personally, I go with what those who learned from Christ Himself have to say rather than some random stranger who read the Bible. I can read the Bible, too, and come up with my own unique interpretation, but what would be the point? What I want is The Truth, not my own silly ideas.

Why do you choose to believe Paul Kurts’s interpretation over the interpretations of others?

You didn’t read the verses carefully. Jesus is the Man and God is the Father. Try to read the verses again, think throughly and see what do they mean.

Christ is both Man and God; referring to Him as Man does not exclude His *also *being God.

Like if I have a history teacher who also coaches me team, I might introduce him as my coach after a game. Does that mean that he is not a history teacher? No.

What do you mean? Jesus perform miracles to convinced people about his divinity.

Yes, and despite His miracles, some still refused to believe.

Why first Satan should ask him to perform another miracle for him?

Satan asked Christ to prove something by performing a miracle. Christ had no reason to prove anything to Satan, and Satan was in the wrong for asking, which is why Christ replied as He did.

Second, why Jesus didn’t perform another miracle for Satan if Satan was Jesus’s creature?

Why should He have?

Third, what has free will to do with performing miracles?

Christ performs miraacles as *evidence *that He is Who He says He is. Where free will comes in is that He does not perform a miracle which *forces *us to believe. We are always allowed to *choose. *

I wrote this because I thought the question in your title was asking why Christ didn’t perform a miracle forcing Satan to believe, which is why I mentioned free will. Sorry about that!

 

[BrunoMaria]

I’m afraid I don’t get the idea of this thread, as God doesn’t have to prove Himself to Satan. For Satan believes more than all of us do. Satan doesn’t even have to believe, because Satan knows all any high ranked Angel knows about God - all Three Persons in the Holy Trinity - as Satan was as Luzifer in heaven in beatific view of God as one of the very high ranked Arch-Angels.

So, why on earth should Jesus convince the Evil and former Angel of what so ever he anyhow knows and saw himself aeons ago?

And sentences like “if he has the power to perform miracle” indicate doubts if or not Jesus really had the power. Of course He had. To Satan Jesus never had any reason to achieve any miracle, as Satan anyhow knew all about Jesus’ divinity. But in John 4,48 Jesus denied any miracle as Christ was annoyed and disappointed, that people only then believed, when they saw miracles. A problem we got today all the same.

Yours
Bruno

 

[You]

Jesus apparently performed miracles to show his divinity to people. There are verses on Bible which show that he either was no able to perform any miracle or he didn’t have the authority which is contrary to other parts which claim that he performed miracles.

This means that Father has authority over Jesus.

Moreover, wasn’t Jest God himself? So what the bold part could ever mean?

This means that Jesus didn’t have any power to perform any miracle.

Moreover, wasn’t Jest God himself? So what the bold part could ever mean?

The original question seems to me to be:

Why did Christ not convince the devil to change his ways and become good - and be ‘saved’ in consequence?

We were taught, I believe, at a young age that humans have free will and because we live in a temporal existence we continuously exercise our free will until the moment of our death. At that point our will becomes fixed, as we move outside of time. Change requires time and matter, neither of which exist outside of time and matter.

Humans have the ability to form their will throughout their lives in this temporal existence. As we have free will.

But angels don’t have the same experience we do. But they too must have free will, or the experience of it.

So when the angels were created, they were created in an instant and equally in an instant they were given free will with which to exercise their choice. It happened in an instant as there is no time outside of time in the spiritual realm.

So like humans at the moment of death our will becomes fixed when it moves outside of time, likewise the angels, once their instantaneous decision was made in the spiritual realm it then was fixed because they cannot change because they are outside of time. There is no time for them. Their decision simply always is - in the future, in the past, in the present it always is, the same.

So you could say that it is a logic impossibility to convince something if it always resists it as an ongoing policy.

Like the souls in hell cannot be helped because they have lost the vision of anything good and are now blind to everything except their own paranoia. Even if someone wanted to help they could not see it or would not see it as help.

There are logic impossibilities which are consistent with Truth, like the impossibility of good evil, or evil good.

 

[BrunoMaria]

The original question seems to me to be: Why did Christ not convince the devil to change his ways and become good - and be ‘saved’ in consequence?

because the devil had his chance and threw it away.

…angels don’t have the same experience we do. But they too must have free will, or the experience of it.

Angels did and still do have same free will we have. Lucifers legions decided in their free will against od, and so were condemned forever to hell.

So when the angels were created, they were created in an instant and equally in an instant they were given free will with which to exercise their choice. It happened in an instant as there is no time outside of time in the spiritual realm.

Why would anyone think we know that what probably took millions of years, was “an instant”? And why would anyone think we’d know what “outside of time” is.

So like humans at the moment of death our will becomes fixed when it moves outside of time, likewise the angels, once their instantaneous decision was made in the spiritual realm it then was fixed because they cannot change because they are outside of time. There is no time for them. Their decision simply always is - in the future, in the past, in the present it always is, the same.

That’s all in the realm of very private assumptions. Nothing od it is backed by the Bible. The great fight of the pro- and cons of the Angels (Michael versusLuzifer) definitely was not jut an instant.

So you could say that it is a logic impossibility to convince something if it always resists it as an ongoing policy…

No, I wouldn’t ever say so, as God’s decisions are once and for all, as God never changes. “Ongoing policy” is apolitical thing that keeps changing depending on party’s majorities. But od’s will and descision are once and for all; unquestionable and undiscussable.

Like the souls in hell cannot be helped because they have lost the vision of anything good and are now blind to everything except their own paranoia. Even if someone wanted to help they could not see it or would not see it as help.

Of course so, as God’s verdict is final.

There are logic impossibilities which are consistent with Truth, like the impossibility of good evil, or evil good.

But the consequence of this thread as you minimized it: “Why did Christ not convince the devil to change his ways and become good - and be ‘saved’ in consequence?” Is as clear as can be: Because Satan as Father of the Lie, repelled God’s love nd so condemned himself forever. Moreover so, seeks to destroy all of God’s works including us humans. But Jesus Christ destroyed the works of Satan, and Satan has little time for his further destroying works.