How long did the fall of the angels last?

[MACADAMIANUTS]

I’m starting to get the idea that this process took a long time. In Revelation it states "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.“Also in Job it says " Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. [7] And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.” Now if Satan could not truely “return” to heaven after his fall…And he was then say attached to the sons of God(angels)…then wouldn’t these other sons of God also have been of evil influence? The Book of Enoch, in additon, describes of angels forming pacts with each other to take wives of earth. When did this war in heaven really conclude? I know it’s over, but did it last well into the beginnings of human history?

 

[wolfe_gate]

God, and his angels, as well as Satan live outside of time, in an ever present now so to speak, we can’t put dates on things that are eternal.

 

[JamesTheJust]

I’m starting to get the idea that this process took a long time. In Revelation it states "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.“Also in Job it says " Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. [7] And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.” Now if Satan could not truely “return” to heaven after his fall…And he was then say attached to the sons of God(angels)…then wouldn’t these other sons of God also have been of evil influence? The Book of Enoch, in additon, describes of angels forming pacts with each other to take wives of earth. When did this war in heaven really conclude? I know it’s over, but did it last well into the beginnings of human history?

1. The Book of Enoch is NOT inspired Scripture, and should not be read or quoted as such, which you seem to do here.
2. We don’t know how long the rebellion in Heaven took, but Heaven is outside of time, so the question may be irrelevant. However, we do know that Satan and his angels had fallen by the time the snake was possessed and used to tempt Adam and Eve.

May the peace of Christ be with you,
James

 

[jesus4ever]

Read The Mistical city of God. You will find it on the internet. Google it its free and has a chapter at ther start on angels and what happened. The Auther is the Holy Mary

 

[thistle]

Read The Mistical city of God. You will find it on the internet. Google it its free and has a chapter at ther start on angels and what happened. The Auther is the Holy Mary

That is a private revelation of Mary of Agreda and does not have to be believed. Also it is not Church teaching.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’m starting to get the idea that this process took a long time. In Revelation it states "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.“Also in Job it says " Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. [7] And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.” Now if Satan could not truely “return” to heaven after his fall…And he was then say attached to the sons of God(angels)…then wouldn’t these other sons of God also have been of evil influence? The Book of Enoch, in additon, describes of angels forming pacts with each other to take wives of earth. When did this war in heaven really conclude? I know it’s over, but did it last well into the beginnings of human history?

Luke 10:18
New International Version (NIV)
18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

 

[MACADAMIANUTS]

1. The Book of Enoch is NOT inspired Scripture, and should not be read or quoted as such, which you seem to do here.

Hmm.

1. We don’t know how long the rebellion in Heaven took, but Heaven is outside of time, so the question may be irrelevant. However, we do know that Satan and ****his angels had fallen ****by the time the snake was possessed and used to tempt Adam and Eve.

How do we know “all” his angels had fallen?

May the peace of Christ be with you

And also with you.

“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”

“and his tail drew a third part of the stars of heaven”

 

[JamesTheJust]

Hmm.

How do we know “all” his angels had fallen?

And also with you.

1.If you follow the thread, you’ll see that Enoch is only accepted by certain Orthodox circles in Africa, such as the Ethiopian church. These churches are not in a state of communion with Rome, and as such, they cannot make authoritative statements on the canon that are binding on all the faithful. Enoch is not found in the Catholic canon, and is thus not inspired Scripture.

2.I guess we really can’t know. With no Scriptural statements on the exact date of the fall, and no Church proclamations, I guess we can use our imagination to decide.

1. Tisk tisk! It’s “and with your spirit” now!

 

[MACADAMIANUTS]

1.If you follow the thread, you’ll see that Enoch is only accepted by certain Orthodox circles in Africa, such as the Ethiopian church. These churches are not in a state of communion with Rome, and as such, they cannot make authoritative statements on the canon that are binding on all the faithful. Enoch is not found in the Catholic canon, and is thus not inspired Scripture.

2.I guess we really can’t know. With no Scriptural statements on the exact date of the fall, and no Church proclamations, I guess we can use our imagination to decide.

1. Tisk tisk! It’s “and with your spirit” now!

Read it? Lol… I started it. Did you read it all the way? But please, because I don’t want to go off topic, let’s make that a mute point. Please, pretend I never added that information in the beginning. Let’s just focus on Job and Revelation. I am still wondering how you come about stating his angels had fallen by the time of The Garden. Do you know a refrence to back that? and yes…“and with your spirit” but this isn’t mass.

 

[JamesTheJust]

Read it? Lol… I started it. Did you read it all the way? But please, because I don’t want to go off topic, let’s make that a mute point. Please, pretend I never added that information in the beginning. Let’s just focus on Job and Revelation. I am still wondering how you come about stating his angels had fallen by the time of The Garden. Do you know a refrence to back that? and yes…“and with your spirit” but this isn’t mass.

Oh! Sorry! I didn’t read who started the thread… My bad… Still though, the small number of Catholics in Ethiopia do not accept the Book of Enoch. That is the Ethiopian Orthodox Church (gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/ethrcot.stm). All churches that claim to be Catholic must accept all the Church’s proclamations, and the Synod of Rome, the Councils of Carthage, Hippo, II Nicaea, and Trent all agree that Enoch is not canonical.

I didn’t understand your question. I thought you were asking when Satan fell, which would logically have to be before the Fall of Adam and Eve. As to the fall of the other angels, like I said, I guess we can’t really know.

No hard feelings.

 

[chimo]

I’m starting to get the idea that this process took a long time. In Revelation it states "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.“Also in Job it says " Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. [7] And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.” Now if Satan could not truely “return” to heaven after his fall…And he was then say attached to the sons of God(angels)…then wouldn’t these other sons of God also have been of evil influence? The Book of Enoch, in additon, describes of angels forming pacts with each other to take wives of earth. When did this war in heaven really conclude? I know it’s over, but did it last well into the beginnings of human history?

The Fall of the Angels was swift and immediate for The Lord Jesus said He saw Satan fall like lightening meaning the devil had fallen from a great height and it was swift. Jesus also mentioned that the main devil was a murderer from the beginning because he caused one third of the angels to sinned with him. If you wish to know more than read St. Maria Faustina’s question to Jesus on why the punishment of the angels who sinned was swift and immediate. The Lord Jesus responded by saying it was because of their profound knowledge of God that caused their immediate punishment. Jesus had said that one angel has more knowledge of God than all the saints in the Church put together. There was no excuse for what the devil did because he knew in advance what would happen to him if he had sinned. No angel can ever change their mind once it sins. The devil is now with all the other fallen angels in a complete state of hell meaning they have this hatred for God, hatred for man and woman and yes even this bitter hatred of themselves.

 

[MACADAMIANUTS]

Oh! Sorry! I didn’t read who started the thread… My bad… Still though, the small number of Catholics in Ethiopia do not accept the Book of Enoch. That is the Ethiopian Orthodox Church (gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/ethrcot.stm). All churches that claim to be Catholic must accept all the Church’s proclamations, and the Synod of Rome, the Councils of Carthage, Hippo, II Nicaea, and Trent all agree that Enoch is not canonical.

I didn’t understand your question. I thought you were asking when Satan fell, which would logically have to be before the Fall of Adam and Eve. As to the fall of the other angels, like I said, I guess we can’t really know.

No hard feelings.

GRRR. Nice quote from a Methodist websight showing ROMAN Catholic canon verus the Orthodox Ethiopian canon…Ummm ROMAN…ROMAN…ROMAN…Roman Catholic is not better or worse then any Catholic Church (rite) in comunion to the Holy Sea. Here’s some Catholic links explaining otherwise to your comment. EWTN (A great link) The Vatican quoted " The Word of God was the source of Ethiopic Literature. The Bible was translated into Ethiopic between the 4th and the 6th century AD. 2) Some books are preserved in their entirety only in Classical Ethiopic and parts of the Ethiopian Biblical Canon are precious for biblical scholarship; The Book of Enoch and the Book of Jubilees are important works for understanding the context of Second Temple Judaism, Qumran and the origins of Christianity. They are also significant for the study of apocalyptic literature. 3) The Ethiopian Bible society is doing a lot for the translation of the Bible in local and regional languages (inc1uding cassettes, CDs, a device called “Proclaimer” which works even with solar energy); The Board Members of the Bible Society are 24: 8 from the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, 8 from the Catholic Church and 8 from the Evangelical Church. This is a good example for Ecumenical cooperation. The President of the Board, at the moment, is Catholic." The Ethiopian Catholic Church quoted " The Ethiopian Catholic Church is especially close to the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, whose doctrine and liturgical tradition she shares. While separated by their understanding of the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, the Ethiopian Catholic and Orthodox Churches have basically the same sacraments, the same prayers, the same devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary and the angels and the saints, the same traditions: the same faith. For this reason, the Ethiopian Catholic Church does not proselytize Ethiopian Orthodox Christians, but strives for brotherly cooperation. Indeed, Ethiopian Catholics pray and work in hope for the day that the Ethiopian Catholic and Orthodox Churches will unite in full communion." Catholic Education quoted " For example, unlike a good Latin parish, in a traditional Eastern Catholic parish you won’t find musical instruments, statues, rosaries, or stations of the cross. Indeed, the priest may well have a wife and children, and the church might be without pews or kneelers. In some circumstances, even the Bible might have a larger canon and include Third and Fourth Maccabees. Unity does not mean uniformity." I understand Enoch is not a Roman Catholic tradition nor do I claim to understand all that’s in it (I’m Roman Catholic). I’d just be mindfull about calling the book not inspired. Its an Ethiopian Catholic Church pactice (different as they maybe their Church (Catholic) is still, the body of Christ) God Bless. No hard feelings.

 

[mdcpensive1]

How long did the fall of the angels last? I see this as a two part question.

1. The initial fall was before time on earth. Since they have a spiritual being their decision against God and with Satan is immediate and cannot change since there is no “time” for them to change.
2. The fall of the defeated angels also is an ongoing spiritual battle of trying to defeat the Church, the Bride of Christ, His spiritual body. This is an ongoing battle to be finished when Christ comes again.

 

[MACADAMIANUTS]

That is a private revelation of Mary of Agreda and does not have to be believed. Also it is not Church teaching.

Was it a “private revelation of Mary of Agreda”? From my research, this “revelation” didn’t become public untill years after her death. (leaves plenty of time to change and doctor her “revelation”) Honestly, looking at her incorrupt body and reading about her “saintlike status” does lead me to wish I could get her own personal feedback regarding the books.

 

[MACADAMIANUTS]

1. The initial fall was before time on earth.

I guess this is where I’m in (somewhat) disagreement. Sounds to me me that Satan and many of his devils fell at the time before earth, but not all. How else, would you explain Satan being with the Sons of God in Job? That does seem quite clear that angels were still able to be influenced by evil after earth’s creation.

 

[mdcpensive1]

I guess this is where I’m in (somewhat) disagreement. Sounds to me me that Satan and many of his devils fell at the time before earth, but not all. How else, would you explain Satan being with the Sons of God in Job? That does seem quite clear that angels were still able to be influenced by evil after earth’s creation.

I am not sure what you are saying. The angels did fall and sent to hell, ie St. Michael. They have immortal souls so they still exist and can influence us here on earth. Job does show this. Scripture show them being cast out in our time. Hope I have not misunderstood you.

 

[bmonk]

Catholic teaching is that the angels are pure spirits and, as such, are outside of time. Given that, we would say that asking how long the fall of angels lasts is like asking how many angels can dance on a pin–it just is not an answerable question, as angels don’t take up time or space.

But, once fallen, because they are pure spirits, angels cannot repent or change their choice–any more than human beings can change their choice after death.

I don’t see it in the Catechism, but I have seen elsewhere that the choice of the angels was made as they were created–in their first instant of being, they chose either to be with God or against God–and that choice stuck.

(CCC 328-330, 391-393)

 

[MACADAMIANUTS]

Scripture show them being cast out in our time.

No worries about misunderstanding. For I too need some clarification.
What did you mean by that sentence?

Thank you.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Luke 10:18
New International Version (NIV)
18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

Since angels’ intellects and wills are in total union, the very act of deciding would be the act of doing; in other words, instantaneous.

Angels, unlike us, don’t have to “ponder”. They have much more powerful intellects and intend fully all that they do, without reservation or ever looking back and reconsidering.

That’s why we are given “second chances” and they aren’t. A trillion years of “thinking it out” wouldn’t change a thing with them.

 

[mdcpensive1]

No worries about misunderstanding. For I too need some clarification.
What did you mean by that sentence?

Thank you.

I am sorry that I did not explain what I really meant. I meant that scripture shows that the disciples went out and cast out demons meaning they fell before man’s existence. If you can pit no time against time.