How long did the holy family stay in the cave?

[tonild]

In meditating on the Christmas Story, I got these Question. How long did Mary, Joeseph, and Jesus stay in the Cave/Manger. They were in Bethlehem at least till the presentation. We are told the wise men found them in the cave also. So did they stay in the cave for a week? Did no one invite them in? When the shepards found them did they invite them somewhere warmer, cleaner. I know we can never really know cause it wasn’t writen.

 

[centurionguard]

In meditating on the Christmas Story, I got these Question. How long did Mary, Joseph, and Jesus stay in the Cave/Manger. They were in Bethlehem at least till the presentation. We are told the wise men found them in the cave also. So did they stay in the cave for a week? Did no one invite them in? When the shepherds found them did they invite them somewhere warmer, cleaner. I know we can never really know cause it wasn’t writen.

Gospel According to Saint Matthew Chapter 2
drbo.org/chapter/47002.htm

The offerings of the wise men: the flight into Egypt: the massacre of the Innocents.

[1] When Jesus therefore was born in Bethlehem of Juda, in the days of king Herod, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem. [2] Saying, Where is he that is born king of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the east, and are come to adore him. [3] And king Herod hearing this, was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. [4] And assembling together all the chief priests and the scribes of the people, he inquired of them where Christ should be born. [5] But they said to him: In Bethlehem of Juda. For so it is written by the prophet:

[6] And thou Bethlehem the land of Juda art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come forth the captain that shall rule my people Israel. [7] Then Herod, privately calling the wise men, learned diligently of them the time of the star which appeared to them; [8] And sending them into Bethlehem, said: Go and diligently inquire after the child, and when you have found him, bring me word again, that I also may come to adore him. [9] Who having heard the king, went their way; and behold the star which they had seen in the east, went before them, until it came and stood over where the child was. [10] And seeing the star they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.

[11] And entering into the house, they found the child with Mary his mother, and falling down they adored him; and opening their treasures, they offered him gifts; gold, frankincense, and myrrh. [12] And having received an answer in sleep that they should not return to Herod, they went back another way into their country. [13] And after they were departed, behold an angel of the Lord appeared in sleep to Joseph, saying: Arise, and take the child and his mother, and fly into Egypt: and be there until I shall tell thee. For it will come to pass that Herod will seek the child to destroy him. [14] Who arose, and took the child and his mother by night, and retired into Egypt: and he was there until the death of Herod: [15] That it might be fulfilled which the Lord spoke by the prophet, saying: Out of Egypt have I called my son.

[16] Then Herod perceiving that he was deluded by the wise men, was exceeding angry; and sending killed all the men children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the borders thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men. [17] Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremias the prophet, saying: [18] A voice in Rama was heard, lamentation and great mourning; Rachel bewailing her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not. [19] But when Herod was dead, behold an angel of the Lord appeared in sleep to Joseph in Egypt, [20] Saying: Arise, and take the child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel. For they are dead that sought the life of the child.

[21] Who arose, and took the child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel. [22] But hearing that Archelaus reigned in Judea in the room of Herod his father, he was afraid to go thither: and being warned in sleep retired into the quarters of Galilee. [23] And coming he dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was said by prophets: That he shall be called a Nazarene.

The timeline is somewhat sketchy but I read somewhere the most biblical scholars agree that Jesus was two-or-three years old when Mary and Joseph returned to Nazareth naturally of course after the death of Herod.

 

[tonild]

thankyou. But do we know how long they were in bethlehem? and Did they stay in the cave the whole time?

 

[Hokomai]

A manger is a thing you put food for animals in. Jesus was put in one, but he was not born in one, and neither did the family stay in one! I think that people often refer to nativity scenes as ‘mangers’, so maybe the word is changing its meaning.

 

[Waiting]

The gospels do not say how long the Holy Family stayed in the cave. My thought is ‘not very long’. Mary could not stay at the inn because she needed private accommodations to give birth. That wasn’t possible at the inn. However, the gospel says that the wise men entered the HOUSE where Jesus was. That says that Mary and Joseph had found a house in which to stay after the birth of Jesus. Matthew then states that after the wisemen left, the angel of the Lord suddenly appeared in a dream to Joseph and told Joseph to take the child and His mother and flee into Egypt. We don’t know how long they were in Egypt, but I learned in school that it was likely a few years. Probably not more than four years. Then they returned to Nazareth.

 

[Julia_Mae]

A manger is a thing you put food for animals in. Jesus was put in one, but he was not born in one, and neither did the family stay in one! I think that people often refer to nativity scenes as ‘mangers’, so maybe the word is changing its meaning.

The OP said “cave.” There were a lot of natural caves used as stables. But it could also have been a structure, like a small shed.

To answer the question, we don’t know when exactly the men from the east approached Herod, and they could have arrived at the same time as those shepherds and the Holy Family could have left the next morning. Bethlehem, according to my map of the Holy Land, at that time was maybe 5-ish miles from Jerusalem, so I’d say there wasn’t much to stop them going on in the morning and finishing their business there, maybe staying with relatives until the Presentation. It just doesn’t give us the information.

 

[centurionguard]

The gospels do not say how long the Holy Family stayed in the cave. My thought is ‘not very long’. Mary could not stay at the inn because she needed private accommodations to give birth. That wasn’t possible at the inn. However, the gospel says that the wise men entered the HOUSE where Jesus was. That says that Mary and Joseph had found a house in which to stay after the birth of Jesus. Matthew then states that after the wise men left, the angel of the Lord suddenly appeared in a dream to Joseph and told Joseph to take the child and His mother and flee into Egypt. We don’t know how long they were in Egypt, but I learned in school that it was likely a few years. Probably not more than four years. Then they returned to Nazareth.

Mary could not stay at the inn because she needed private accommodations to give birth.

That’s not the reason their were no accommodations in the Inn.
Joseph would have brought enough denarius in his day knowing expectant Mary was in need of lodging as they made their way to register for the Roman Census decree.

Either simply there was no room for them to lodge or they were simply rejected and ignored.

 

[jannes]

I always thought Jan/6th or the Twelth day of Christmas was the day the wisemen found Baby Jesus

 

[1ke]

I always thought Jan/6th or the Twelth day of Christmas was the day the wisemen found Baby Jesus

That is the feast day on the liturgical calendar. It does not represent an actual chronology.

The wise men saw the star’s rising at his birth. They then had to travel from where they lived. This would have taken quite a long time.

 

[patrick457]

That’s not the reason their were no accommodations in the Inn.
Joseph would have brought enough denarius in his day knowing expectant Mary was in need of lodging as they made their way to register for the Roman Census decree.

Either simply there was no room for them to lodge or they were simply rejected and ignored.

One should also remember that the word for ‘inn’, katalyma is better translated as ‘place to stay’ or ‘lodgings’ or even ‘guestroom’. This is the word Luke uses to refer to the upper room; he uses another word to refer to a commercial inn in the parable of the Good Samaritan (pandokheion).

More likely, Mary and Joseph found a house where they could stay in Bethlehem. It could even be Joseph’s house (we often think of Joseph as being from Nazareth but could it not be possible that he was also from Bethlehem as well and just went to pick Mary up?) or that of relatives. When the time of delivery came, for various reasons (either the house they were staying at were full of other guests or the living quarters, the katalyma, was just too small), Mary gave birth at the part of the house where the family kept their animals - yes, people raised them indoors back then.

 

[patrick457]

Back then, families usually kept their livestock inside or near their houses as a protection against theft and the weather. In one form of dwelling, the interior of the house would be divided into two levels: the animals would be on the ground level while the family’s living quarters would be upstairs. Now how do we square ‘house’ with ‘cave’? People in those days sometimes employed caves (which could be either natural or man-made) as storage rooms and as shelters for their animals by building their dwellings in front of, over, or near one, thereby making it a part of the house. At times, there were even those who would dwell in one and convert it.

BTW I wrote something about it on my blog last year.

 

[tonild]

Thank you all. I would like to think that after the shepards found Mary and Jesus, perhaps they would have helped them find a place to stay.
But it is just my thinking.

 

[bogeydogg]

I find it interesting that they even needed the inn.

Think about it. Joseph was born in Bethlehem; it is not out of hand speculation to think that he had family there still. So why even need an inn? If you travel to a city where you have family, and an event has happened which would cause your family to know that everyone is coming to town (like Caesar’s taking of a census for example), wouldn’t it seem reasonable that your family would help you find lodging? Especially if your wife was in special need?

Unless of course you are a respectable fellow who is thought well of but has done something to bring shame on the family. Like… oh I don’t know… marrying the girl who turned up pregnant while you were betrothed.

Perhaps the reason they were seeking room at the inn was that they were unwelcome among Joseph’s family. I don’t know but it seems possible.

Furthermore the Bible says the Magi came to the house, presumably Joseph, now with his young bride and new son, was not in a hurry to pack back up for the dangers of travelling the roads back to Nazareth, and so he stays and begins to establish a life for himself. If we take some extra-Biblical sources that say Herod dies around 1BC, and Matthew tells us Herod had all the children two years and under killed after having learned when the star appeared and the Magi having not returned, I think it is safe to say that Jesus was born around 4BC.

If that is so then Joseph has been living with his family there for probably a year at least, the Magi come, they flee to Egypt. Josephus tells us Herod died in 1BC, the family returns and passes by Bethlehem where Joseph’s family is, and journey on to Nazareth. I think it is safe to say that they didn’t go back after that because when His ministry begins Jesus is known as having been from Nazareth and not Bethlehem.

So why would Joseph not return to Bethlehem having stayed there a year at least? Maybe the provisions of the Magi made it possible for him to start over if you will in Nazareth. Clearly he didn’t have a lot tying him to Nazareth, presumably paying the tax did not take a year, and yet he tarried in Bethlehem. He must have been able to do something to provide for his family there which he did not depend on Nazareth to have.

No I think it more likely that he passed by Bethlehem because he chose not to return to the place where his family had ostracized him on account of Mary, whom he knew to be a pure and virtuous girl, and he was not of a mind to be reminded daily of the way he had been treated when he had the means to set up for himself somewhere else where the ties were not quite so close.

Of course this is supposition, but I think the Bible’s silence about the family of Joseph in Bethlehem, as well as Jesus’ not going there, is telling. Perhaps the injury to His earthly father who loved and cared for Him stayed with Him. Of course Bethlehem is little more than an hour’s walk to Jerusalem so it is not as though no one there could have heard the Gospel, in fact I think His cousins did, but I wonder about Joseph and the shame that was on him as he cared for his new son and wife whose supposed shame his family in town knew about.

Furthermore the stinging rebuke of the Pharisees later that, “We know who our father is…” basically calling Jesus a bastard, I think reinforces this idea.

I think it shines a light on Joseph during this season that often is over looked. The humility of God’s servant, who served by being willing to be shamed and bearing it knowing the truth that others would not believe, but caring for and protecting the family all the same did what other men would not because of his devotion to God.

I thank God for St Joseph.

God Bless

 

[tonild]

Yes, I love St. Joeseph. Too
My cities Patron

 

[patrick457]

I find it interesting that they even needed the inn.

Think about it. Joseph was born in Bethlehem; it is not out of hand speculation to think that he had family there still. So why even need an inn? If you travel to a city where you have family, and an event has happened which would cause your family to know that everyone is coming to town (like Caesar’s taking of a census for example), wouldn’t it seem reasonable that your family would help you find lodging? Especially if your wife was in special need?

Unless of course you are a respectable fellow who is thought well of but has done something to bring shame on the family. Like… oh I don’t know… marrying the girl who turned up pregnant while you were betrothed.

Perhaps the reason they were seeking room at the inn was that they were unwelcome among Joseph’s family. I don’t know but it seems possible.

Furthermore the Bible says the Magi came to the house, presumably Joseph, now with his young bride and new son, was not in a hurry to pack back up for the dangers of travelling the roads back to Nazareth, and so he stays and begins to establish a life for himself. If we take some extra-Biblical sources that say Herod dies around 1BC, and Matthew tells us Herod had all the children two years and under killed after having learned when the star appeared and the Magi having not returned, I think it is safe to say that Jesus was born around 4BC.

If that is so then Joseph has been living with his family there for probably a year at least, the Magi come, they flee to Egypt. Josephus tells us Herod died in 1BC, the family returns and passes by Bethlehem where Joseph’s family is, and journey on to Nazareth. I think it is safe to say that they didn’t go back after that because when His ministry begins Jesus is known as having been from Nazareth and not Bethlehem.

So why would Joseph not return to Bethlehem having stayed there a year at least? Maybe the provisions of the Magi made it possible for him to start over if you will in Nazareth. Clearly he didn’t have a lot tying him to Nazareth, presumably paying the tax did not take a year, and yet he tarried in Bethlehem. He must have been able to do something to provide for his family there which he did not depend on Nazareth to have.

No I think it more likely that he passed by Bethlehem because he chose not to return to the place where his family had ostracized him on account of Mary, whom he knew to be a pure and virtuous girl, and he was not of a mind to be reminded daily of the way he had been treated when he had the means to set up for himself somewhere else where the ties were not quite so close.

Of course this is supposition, but I think the Bible’s silence about the family of Joseph in Bethlehem, as well as Jesus’ not going there, is telling. Perhaps the injury to His earthly father who loved and cared for Him stayed with Him. Of course Bethlehem is little more than an hour’s walk to Jerusalem so it is not as though no one there could have heard the Gospel, in fact I think His cousins did, but I wonder about Joseph and the shame that was on him as he cared for his new son and wife whose supposed shame his family in town knew about.

Furthermore the stinging rebuke of the Pharisees later that, “We know who our father is…” basically calling Jesus a bastard, I think reinforces this idea.

I think it shines a light on Joseph during this season that often is over looked. The humility of God’s servant, who served by being willing to be shamed and bearing it knowing the truth that others would not believe, but caring for and protecting the family all the same did what other men would not because of his devotion to God.

I thank God for St Joseph.

God Bless

I would beg to differ here. The Semitic idea of hospitality requires that one’s doors should always be open for any potential visitor who might show up on the doorstep and that the guest be honored and treated specially. Of course I don’t claim to know whether Joseph’s surviving relations down there caught wind of his engagement with a teenage girl who got pregnant all of a sudden, God knows how (something that is indeed very scandalous), but I don’t think we need to go that far and over-romanticize things. But if it was as you said, I guess they would have learned it after the fact?

 

[bogeydogg]

I would beg to differ here. The Semitic idea of hospitality requires that one’s doors should always be open for any potential visitor who might show up on the doorstep and that the guest be honored and treated specially. Of course I don’t claim to know whether Joseph’s surviving relations down there caught wind of his engagement with a teenage girl who got pregnant all of a sudden, God knows how (something that is indeed very scandalous), but I don’t think we need to go that far and over-romanticize things. But if it was as you said, I guess they would have learned it after the fact?

I don’t know either. And I freely admit this is supposition based on silence and is in no way part of my faith. It was just a meditation I had on Joseph and the somewhat odd way the Gospels read to me about this.

God Bless

 

[Hokomai]

The OP said “cave.”

No, the OP said Cave/Manger.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Back then, families usually kept their livestock inside or near their houses as a protection against theft and the weather. In one form of dwelling, the interior of the house would be divided into two levels: the animals would be on the ground level while the family’s living quarters would be upstairs. Now how do we square ‘house’ with ‘cave’? People in those days sometimes employed caves (which could be either natural or man-made) as storage rooms and as shelters for their animals by building their dwellings in front of, over, or near one, thereby making it a part of the house. At times, there were even those who would dwell in one and convert it.

BTW I wrote something about it on my blog last year.

I’ve actually seen a fair number of caves as ancient dwellings in Israel (with accommodations for animals in the same cave.) Be sure to visit a very nicely preserved one in Tekoa that reflects these particular features if you ever travel there. It even has a feeding trough carved into the rock.

It’s at least a possibility that the house = the cave. It’s also at least a possibility that Mary and Joseph’s accommodations were actually better than the “inn,” something that would be more congruent with ideas of hospitality at the time. Despite all the traditions, the “innkeeper” may be getting a bum rap.

 

[centurionguard]

I’ve actually seen a fair number of caves as ancient dwellings in Israel (with accommodations for animals in the same cave.) Be sure to visit a very nicely preserved one in Tekoa that reflects these particular features if you ever travel there. It even has a feeding trough carved into the rock.

It’s at least a possibility that the house = the cave. It’s also at least a possibility that Mary and Joseph’s accommodations were actually better than the “inn,” something that would be more congruent with ideas of hospitality at the time. Despite all the traditions, the “innkeeper” may be getting a bum rap.

Despite all the traditions, the “innkeeper” may be getting a bum rap

Perhaps; but I’m sure there were valid reasons why biblical scholars decided to keep the **Inn ** within the context of scripture. Surely it wasn’t on a whim.

I heard about this one-room-house that some refer to 2000 years ago. It shocked me to hear the word “house” used in the Birth of Christ narrative during one Christmas Eve years ago. In fact it kinda irritated me thinking it was just another distasteful rendition of popular Inclusive Language used in many Lectionaries in Canada.

I’ve always adopted the scriptural text saying Jesus was Born in a Cave and that there was No room in the Inn.

GK Chesterton gives some interesting prospective on The God in the Cave cin.org/godncave.html

Both accounts Luke and Matthew agree that Jesus was born in Bethlehem and raised in Nazareth. According to Luke 2:7 (in the traditional translation), Mary “laid him in a manger because there was no room for them in the inn.” But the Greek can also be rendered, “she laid him in a manger because they had no space in the room” — we should perhaps imagine Jesus being born in a quiet back room of an overflowing one-room house.

The gospel accounts don’t mention a cave, but less than a century later, both Justin Martyr and the Protoevangelium of James say Jesus was born in a cave. This is reasonable, as many houses in the area are still built in front of a cave. The cave part would have been used for stabling and storage - thus the manger.

The Protoevangelium of James newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm

 

[patrick457]

Perhaps; but I’m sure there were valid reasons why biblical scholars decided to keep the **Inn ** within the context of scripture. Surely it wasn’t on a whim.

Yes, it’s called ‘translation convention’, which may or may not always be accurate. It’s kind of like rendering Iakobos as ‘James’ or Yam Suph as ‘Red Sea’; both are not a totally faithful transliteration/translation of the original words (else you would have ‘Jacob’ or ‘Reed Sea’), but because of the general hesitancy among translators to break with centuries of translation tradition (and also perhaps to avoid any complaints about the ‘unconventional’ renderings) they usually prefer to just keep it.

Funny thing is, the ancient versions don’t really translate it as ‘inn’ also (as in commercial public house): the Syriac Peshitta says that Mary put the baby in the manger “because there was no room where they could lodge;” the Latin Vulgate uses the word diversorio both in the Nativity and the Last Supper, a word which like katalyma has more general connotations than inn (while using taberna for pandocheion in 10:34). It was really William Tyndale that started the “inn” fad in English Bibles (katalyma = ynne, gest chamber; pandocheion = commen ynne); Wycliff translated the Latin diversorio as chaumbir (Bethlehem)/herborgerie (upper room) and taberna as ostrie. (Here the Rheims NT unfortunately obscures the difference by using inne in all three instances).