How long should a faith carry the weight of their history?

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dianaiad said:
Stephen, aren’t you paying attention to the thread? It wasn’t ME who mentioned that simply the THOUGHT of such a thing is an automatic excommunication. It was one of you guys. However, go here; for a very good examination of this ruling.
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If you read the article, you would know that what you said it not true.; as I thought.
 
Stephen168 said:
I was just wondering if your little story made you feel better about yourself and Mormonism. I know anything is possible but…Well, I was just wondering if your reason for telling it was to make yourself feel better.
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About what?
 
dianaiad said:
I wonder how many Catholics are aware that even thinking about voting for abortion rights means that they are excommunicated? Or for that matter (and I’m thinking about some stories told by former altar boys who did some…interesting…things with the sacramental wine and the Host) how many know that such ‘innocent adolescent hi-jinks’ resulted in their excommunication, so that they have been committing a mortal sin every time they took confession–even if they didn’t believe they were? Hmmn.
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You get excommunicated for getting an abortion. And then the woman has to know it is a sin. If not, chances are, there is no excommunication.

There has been talk about trying to be more strict on Catholic members of Congress, but nothing has panned out.
 
Xavierlives said:
I think every world faith has a time in their history where, as a collective, things did not go exactly as their faith now believes (or practices).

Just a few examples I can think of are
Catholics - The Inquistion
Mormons - Polygamy
Jehovah’s Witnesses - the years 1914, 1925, 1975
Seventh Day Adventist - October 22, 1844
Southern Baptist - slavery
Muslims - extremist terrorism

So with this is mind, I am wondering the following
  1. How long should a faith carry the baggage of their forefathers?
  2. Is it acceptable for those issues to be brought up when considering converting?
  3. Is it acceptable for those issues to be brought up when debating about the religion (even if the faith has renounced the contention)?
  4. Are there faiths which has successfully done this?
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Why is Calvin left off the hook here?
 
StrawberryJam said:
Why is Calvin left off the hook here?
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lol… these were just examples to get the ball rolling. They were not intended to be exclusive or inclusive. More people have had fun talking about the list than the actual topic,
 
Xavierlives said:
lol… these were just examples to get the ball rolling. They were not intended to be exclusive or inclusive. More people have had fun talking about the list than the actual topic,
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🙂

Got it.

I need to formulate my thoughts to reply, thanks for explaining for me.
 
Xavierlives said:
You get excommunicated for getting an abortion. And then the woman has to know it is a sin. If not, chances are, there is no excommunication.

There has been talk about trying to be more strict on Catholic members of Congress, but nothing has panned out.
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Of course it has. Else why is Notre Dame in trouble? Why are the Kennedys, who are very pro-abortion, in trouble? The automatic abortion is…automatic. “Talk about trying to be more strict on Catholic members of Congress” is not going to make them any MORE excommunicated, y’know.

As well, the article I posted, as well as other information I have gleaned from the Catholic Encyclopedia and other very pro-Catholic sources, indicates that any action or thought that results in a completed abortion results in this. Certainly a deliberate vote for a pro-abortion law would result in that very outcome; it’s MEANT to result in that very outcome.
 
dianaiad said:
Of course it has. Else why is Notre Dame in trouble? Why are the Kennedys, who are very pro-abortion, in trouble? The automatic abortion is…automatic. “Talk about trying to be more strict on Catholic members of Congress” is not going to make them any MORE excommunicated, y’know.

As well, the article I posted, as well as other information I have gleaned from the Catholic Encyclopedia and other very pro-Catholic sources, indicates that any action or thought that results in a completed abortion results in this. Certainly a deliberate vote for a pro-abortion law would result in that very outcome; it’s MEANT to result in that very outcome.
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Well, if you mean a Catholic doctor who performs them, then yes. A Catholic nurse or tech who assists, then yes. A Catholic lawyer who argues in favor of abortion, then… I don’t know.

I only offer these as what I have heard (since I have started listening to Catholic radio on my way to and from work).
 
Xavierlives said:
Well, if you mean a Catholic doctor who performs them, then yes. A Catholic nurse or tech who assists, then yes. A Catholic lawyer who argues in favor of abortion, then… I don’t know.

I only offer these as what I have heard (since I have started listening to Catholic radio on my way to and from work).
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You are on the right track. The automatic excommunication requires active participation in the act itself. There is a culpability factor.

Where the folks are split is on where the line actually is drawn. Most would say that those who provide and pay for the abortion are out, as is the poor soul who requests it (assuming there is no force involved in her choosing it). Also, those who actively work to promote and provide them are, too. Politicians, being slippery, are harder to pin down.
 
ralphinal said:
You are on the right track. The automatic excommunication requires active participation in the act itself. There is a culpability factor.

Where the folks are split is on where the line actually is drawn. Most would say that those who provide and pay for the abortion are out, as is the poor soul who requests it (assuming there is no force involved in her choosing it). Also, those who actively work to promote and provide them are, too. Politicians, being slippery, are harder to pin down.
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Wouldn’t the person whose active vote for a law that allows abortion be 'actively work[ing] to promote and provide them?"
 
Xavierlives said:
They can just not vote. Then what do you do to them?
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“Not voting,” or “actively campaigning against” wouldn’t be an excommunicatable offense, would it, Xavier?

My question is about Catholic politicians who may personally be against abortion, but who have sworn to represent their constituency–which might overwhelmingly want him/her to vote FOR. If, in representing his/her district, he votes against his conscience…

Could be a problem, I think.
 
dianaiad said:
“Not voting,” or “actively campaigning against” wouldn’t be an excommunicatable offense, would it, Xavier?

My question is about Catholic politicians who may personally be against abortion, but who have sworn to represent their constituency–which might overwhelmingly want him/her to vote FOR. If, in representing his/her district, he votes against his conscience…

Could be a problem, I think.
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Having charity is preferable, isn’t it, Diana?

I am saying if the Church does take a stand, the politician will have an out. I seriously doubt a Catholic politician would risk excommunication especially since it is likely his constituency and donor-base is Catholic as well.

ta-ta.
 
Xavierlives said:
You get excommunicated for getting an abortion. And then the woman has to know it is a sin. If not, chances are, there is no excommunication.

There has been talk about trying to be more strict on Catholic members of Congress, but nothing has panned out.
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You seem to have a good understand of the Catholic view. Hopefully it is a more general Christian view. You can’t sin if you don’t know it is a in; which it why the Catholic Church is very hesitant to judge a person’s actions when we can’t judge their hearts and minds. That is the second reason the “altar boy hi-jinks story” made me laugh.
 
Xavierlives said:
Having charity is preferable, isn’t it, Diana?

I am saying if the Church does take a stand, the politician will have an out. I seriously doubt a Catholic politician would risk excommunication especially since it is likely his constituency and donor-base is Catholic as well.

ta-ta.
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Well, the problem here is that neither you nor I are Catholic, and really have no business speculating on this issue.

As for me, I was just wondering. Personally, if a Catholic politician was running for office, and came right out and said that his religion forbade voting for any sort of pro-abortion position, that politician would get my vote instantly.

Not because of his or her abortion stance, though my own is not exactly pro-abortion, but because honesty is so RARE in politicians. I would worry a lot about a Catholic politician who tried to dodge the issue, or who claimed to be a faithful Catholic–and said s/he would vote FOR abortion in any way.

I do feel for those politicians who honestly believe that they are elected to represent the wishes of their constituency–when that constituency wants something s/he is opposed to.

…and don’t think for one minute that all Catholic politicians represent majority Catholic districts. They don’t…and don’t think for a minute that all majority Catholic districts are automatically going to be anti-abortion. Just look at Rhode Island.

It’s a dilemma.
 
Stephen168 said:
You seem to have a good understand of the Catholic view. Hopefully it is a more general Christian view. You can’t sin if you don’t know it is a in; which it why the Catholic Church is very hesitant to judge a person’s actions when we can’t judge their hearts and minds. That is the second reason the “altar boy hi-jinks story” made me laugh.
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Oh, come on. Are you telling me that an ALTAR BOY hasn’t been told how serious a sin it is to desecrate the Host?
 
dianaiad said:
Or for that matter (and I’m thinking about some stories told by former altar boys who did some…interesting…things with the sacramental wine and the Host)
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dianaiad said:
how many know that such ‘innocent adolescent hi-jinks’ resulted in their excommunication,
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dianaiad said:
so that they have been committing a mortal sin every time they took confession–even if they didn’t believe they were?
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dianaiad said:
Oh, come on. Are you telling me that an ALTAR BOY hasn’t been told how serious a sin it is to desecrate the Host?
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Every Catholic knows it is a serious sin to desecrate a consecrated host; which has little to do with your story.
 
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