How long will it take for non-Catholics to finally accept Catholicism?

[RobGentner]

What was the mode of revelation used by God? **Divine inspiration? kind of like the folks that wrote the bible.**Strangely though, the RCC has not once claimed God spoke to any of its popes.TIP: If a church leader says God “spoke to him” Hide your wallet! **
Abraham was bound to the Ten Commandments, as are all of humanity from the time of creation. (Gen. 26:5). but there was no 10 commandments when Abraham was there. Unless you count the ones in the protestant bible which magically seems to appears through out eternity! **

Is that found in Scripture? … He is “the same yesterday, and today, and forever.”
**AMEN! So we had to change our understanding because God doesn’t change. I understand. You are correct we were right to change our minds. Thanks! **
This breaking of bread was NOT the observance of Eucharist – it was simply eating a meal. **So you say His apostles did not follow Jesus’ commandments? Does that make them protestants?**This expression was commonly used in olden times to designate a meal (I think some parts of the U.S. still use the term).**Yup! Come break bread with me some time my friend to nurish your body! And then I’ll go to Mass and consume my Lord and Savior to nurish my soul! ** Notice Luke 22:16, … “He sat at meat.”**He should have BROKE bread! If what you believe is true…SO what? Does this undue the euchuriest. Did the two with him sin by eating the bread? Did Jesus know He was dead? Do you ever ask any questions that make sense?

** Again, in Acts 2:46, the disciples “continuing daily … **They had a church social? I bet someone brought a Tunafish cassarole! **See also Acts 27:33-35.

And there’s one other thing. That first day of the week when they “broke break”, wasn’t even a Sunday!“On Saturday evening…” **Yawn! :coffeeread: **

Now, about this observance Catholics call Eucharist or Communion, is this not supposed to be the ordinance called the Passover with only the symbols changed?

**Is it? What tells you that? **

…Jesus as the sacrifice and His shed blood to spare us from death due to sin.
** Good! **

Now, how often was the Passover observed? … ONCE A YEAR (Luke 2:41-42). One good thing about our God, he is timeless, so is Jesus. When we partake in the Euchurist we are immediately transfered back to the First and Only sacrifice. We do not do a rememberance ceremony with grape juice and crackers. We are immediately eating the body and drinking the blood of our savior Jesus Christ as He commands us to do that!
Has the observance changed during apostolic times?
Notice I Corinthians 5:7, 8: “Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us: therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven… but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.” Yes, Christ is now our Passover, therefore let us keep the feast – as we have done in the past, YEARLY.

To whom was “all authority” given? It says, “to Me” – Jesus Christ.
**

Well that question was asked and answered. And since the RCC is the body of church … **

Nowhere in the entire Bible do we find man, or God’s Church, being given the authority to change God’s laws; authority to do other things, yes – like the laying on of hands, the ordination of ministers, baptizing, rebuking, reproving, teaching, etc. – but NEVER to change God’s laws. “There is one lawgiver…” (James 4:12). And He is God!

**If I tell you to go sit down and you lay down and I say" I said sit and you then sat" would you have changed my command or adjusted your understanding? God doesn’t change! Our understanding of what He wants may! BTW, that make 327 times that question was asked and answered this year! **

The RCC once taught that Scripture does not support their change of the Sabbath commandment. Many priests, bishops, theologians, apologists and educators acknowledged this fact. It was only recently that the church came up with the verses that supposedly showed Sunday observance. Notice this from an Archbishop of Baltimore in the 1900’s:**I wonder if there is anything interesting on TV? :coffeeread: **

“You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify” **We wrote the bible! Lets make the sabbith Wednesday! Who cares? God wants us to spend one day worshiping Him. He is unlimited don’t limit worshoping Him! to a day that even you don’t observe. Jesus had a word for people like you, Vipers? I think that is what he said of the “keepers of the law” Am I wrong? Was Jesus? Would His Father care? Do you know that you must believe to be saved? Believe what? If you aren’t Catholic what ever you believe the Lord wants you to believe! Yea, that makes sense to me. :whacky: **(The Faith of Our Fathers, 1917, p. 89, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Catholic Educator and Archbishop of Baltimore).

 

[RobGentner]

I don’t think that non-Catholics will ever fully accept Catholicism, because some non-Catholics are much too clear on the fact that Catholicism has its own set of issues.We all got issues dear! Until the Catholic Church becomes much, much less legalistic, I won’t be joining it.**God made laws they must be kept. Want love? Join a cult! ** It seems to me it has taken the freedom of Christ and replaced it with a new law. This isn’t a good thing.**I misplaced my bible would you look up the passage about Jesus’ freedom. I know you know where it is. Thanks! **

That being said, Catholics are still Christians unless they trust their works to save them **Oh, look that passage up for me also. Can’t be christian if you do good works. Yea, that sounds like something Jesus said! :whacky: (and some individual Catholics do). I would hope they do good works? believe that you get to heaven by doing them? Probably not, but some may.Who cares? And does that eliminate them from going to heaven? Quick, someone go grab JESUS! **

**By the way,Welcome to our little crazy farm. Grab a seat and stay awhile! **

 

[RobGentner]

Pixie Dust I wouldn’t dare try to guess at how long it will take - it’s all in God’s timing.

I rejoice that we’ll all be Catholic in Heaven.

Amen!

**
Old Joke: A protestant asks God. “What does Time mean to you my God?”
God answered “Nothing my son, a second to me is like 10 million years to you!”
The protestant inquires, "God, can I ask another question?
God said “Sure, my son, ask away!”

“Can you allow me, a protestant, to enter Your Kingdom?”

God replies, "Sure, Give me a second! "

.**

 

[RobGentner]

**Originally Posted by jmcrae
Are you a Christian? Because it seems odd to argue against the Christian day of worship, if you are. And if you’re an atheist, or something else, then I don’t see why or how it would matter to you, one way or the other. **

Mailman probably is a “Sabbatarian” (the Seventh-Day Adventists are the best known) who owe their “raison d’etre” to the conviction that the early Church apostatized when it abandoned observance of the traditional Sabbath. Poor lost sheep!:crying:

Sunday is the Catholic day of worship…

“Sunday is a Catholic institution, and… can be defended only on Catholic principles….**“Jesus priniciples” ** From the beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.” – Catholic Press, Aug. 25, 1900.
**Though the Gospels report that Jesus observed the Sabbath, there are several incidents where he is accused of violating Sabbath law Did Jesus sin? Did He change the day? (Jn. 9:16, Jn 7:23, Mk. 3:4). It is interesting that in various passages the Lord restates all of the decalogue except for one commandment. “And Jesus replied, You shall not kill, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and you shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Mt. 19:18–19). “It is written: ‘The Lord your God shall you worship, and him alone shall you serve’” (Mt. 4:10). Finally, “But I say to you, do not swear at all; not by heaven, for it is God’s throne” (Mt. 5:34). The commandment Jesus didn’t restate? To keep holy the Sabbath. So He must have eliminated it? Or did jesus err? or can’t you answer? (Jmcrae , watch when he can’t win. He runs! **

and, as the priest T. Enright says, "the whole world bows in obedience.”

Our Lord defends his disciples when the Jews attacked them for not observing the Sabbath, ending his comments by saying: “For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath” (Mt. 12:1–8). Or again, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath” (Mk. 2:27). Why did Jesus say that? Didn’t God get tired and had to rest on the 7th day? Does you God get tired? Ours gives us an example to be followed.

The fact that Jesus rebukes too severe an interpretation of Sabbath law (Lk. 13:10–16, 14:1–5; Jn. 5:9–18, 7:22) suggests that he might not have been pleased with the way that the Sabbath was being observed.

Sabbatarians falsely argue that the Lord observed the Sabbath and we should imitate Christ in this. This reasoning, however, fails to consider that for a while our Lord was still under the old covenant when he observed the Sabbath. Indeed, Christ perfectly observed the Sabbath as he did all of the old covenant.
However, after he enunciated a new covenant at the Last Supper, his emphasis seems to be on Sundays. Sunday was the day he was found to have been resurrected, and his first two appearance to the twelve disciples were on the following two Sundays (Jn. 20:19, 20:26). Again, five weeks later—on Sunday—the Holy Spirit descended on the apostles.

Throughout the book of Acts, Luke reports mass conversions of the Jews in Jerusalem, and notes that many were devout Jews and priests (Acts 2:5,41; 6:7) who remained “zealous for the law” (Acts 21:20). There is no suggestion in the New Testament that these devout Christianized Jews gave up Sabbath worship. The church in Asia, with Paul as its teacher, was confronted by Jewish-Christians who insisted that new Christians be circumcised as Old Testament law commanded. The disciples met in Jerusalem in the year 49 to resolve this matter. At that Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:10–21), Peter, James, and the other apostles set aside the law of circumcision, a law that was a sign of God’s covenental relationship with the chosen people and which was an "everlasting pact " (Gen. 17:13). While there was much debate in Jerusalem on whether or not Gentile Christians should be exempted from circumcision, the council was silent on the matter of Sabbath worship; this suggests that Sabbath versus Sunday worship was not an issue at that time. Why make it an issue now? :whacky:

 

[Mailman]

The Ten Commandments are precepts bearing on the fundamental obligations of religion and morality and embodying the revealed expression of the Creator’s will in relation to man’s whole duty to God and to his fellow-creatures. They are found twice recorded in the Pentateuch, in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5. There is no numerical division of the Commandments in the Books of Moses, but the injunctions are distinctly tenfold, and are found almost identical in both sources. The order, too, is the same except for the final prohibitions pronounced against concupiscence, that of Deuteronomy being adopted in preference to Exodus.

“There is no numerical division” but they “are distinctly tenfold.” Well, what’s the big deal here? We can number them, and it’ll come out 10 in number, right? That’s why you also call it Ten Commandments. And I remember you also said 14 commandments. What are you trying to say really? Are there 10 commandments, 14, no number, any number, whatever suits the occasion… what? You sound like the CCC to me – extremely wordy yet, very ambiguous and always non-committal.

Is that what he told you? He wrote “faith without WORKS is dead” Check any dictionary on your interpertation. of what works means. Even old jewish ones won’t infer works as commandments. Did you misspeak? was James wrong? Did Jesus make a mistake? Does my questions remind you of anyone?

Well, let’s see… A man came to ask Jesus, “Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?” My question: Can the man just as well have asked this and it would still mean the same: “Good Master, what good WORKS shall I do…?” Of course! And Jesus’ answer? “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” Your line of questioning reminds me of the lawyer who asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath,
The commandment was not changed Keep holy the sabbath is still valid never changed.
You know better RCC never changed anything.

Are you contradicting yourself here or is there a typo somewhere?

 

[Mailman]

1. “…that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him”

The RCC believes eternal life is inherent in man. Here, Christ says it will be given only to His Church.
Did He? Where? It doesn’t say that!

 

[RobGentner]

“There is no numerical division” but they “are distinctly tenfold.” Well, what’s the big deal here? We can number them, and it’ll come out 10 in number, right? That’s why you also call it Ten Commandments. And I remember you also said 14 commandments. What are you trying to say really? Are there 10 commandments, 14, no number, any number, whatever suits the occasion… what? You sound like the CCC to me – extremely wordy yet, very ambiguous and always non-committal.**The jewish word used is “14” It doesn’t matter what you number them they are only 10 of the commandments that God gave the Jewish people. We are required to follow them vbacsuse Jesus commanded us to when He made them two laws. They don’t have to be numbered what difference does that make to GOD? None, my Pharisizal friend **

Well, let’s see… A man came to ask Jesus, “Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?” My question: Can the man just as well have asked this and it would still mean the same: “Good Master, what good WORKS shall I do…?”
**But you would also agree you can’t work your way into heaven. make up your mind! **
Of course! And Jesus’ answer? “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” Your line of questioning reminds me of the lawyer who asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
:banghead:

**The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, The commandment was not changed .Keep holy the sabbath is still valid never changed. You know better RCC never changed anything. **

Are you contradicting yourself here or is there a typo somewhere?

** So I have to explain again? Ok I will type slowly again: The day of the week doesn’t matter. We still celebrate the Sabbath. Remember Jesus defended his disciples when the Jews attacked them for not observing the Sabbath, ending his comments by saying: “For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath” (Mt. 12:1–8). Or again,
“The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath” (Mk. 2:27). Why did Jesus say that? Didn’t God get tired and had to rest on the 7th day? Does you God get tired? The fact that Jesus rebukes too severe an interpretation of Sabbath law (Lk. 13:10–16, 14:1–5; Jn. 5:9–18, 7:22) suggests that he might not have been pleased with the way that the Sabbath was being observed. Or the way you are attacking his true followers. :bigyikes:

KISSES! Mailman, You are too cute, twisting and changing words. As they say in the south “Bless your heart!” **

 

[Mailman]

RobGentner:

From this we can see that the preacher extolling the bible as the only comfort and guide of faithful souls was slightly out of his reckoning when he used these words: ‘Ah, my brethren! What was it that comforted and strengthened Joseph in his dark prison in Egypt? What was it that formed his daily support and meditation? What but that blessed book, the Bible!’ Well my friends, Joseph existed before a line of the Old Testament was penned, and about 1800 years before the first of the New Testament books saw the light, the worthy evangelist was guilty of what we call a slight anachronism

Well, you do know the history of the Bible, Rob. I couldn’t agree with you more. But did the preacher (must be Protestant?) really say those words, or did you only make that up as a slight to your separated brethren?

A last point must always be kept clearly in mind, for it concerns one of the greatest delusions entertained by many Protestants and makes the fierce attacks on the RCC appear so silly and irrational – the point, namely that the bible, as we have it now, was not printed in any language at all till about 1500 years after the birth of Christ, for the simple reason that there was no such thing as printing known before that date.

Do you want us to believe that Protestants do not know about this? I am no Protestant but I can say that they are A LOT MORE knowledgeable about the Bible than most Catholics. In fact, the vast majority of Catholics do not know anything about the Bible other than the verses read to them in the Mass, much less its history. You are a rarity RobGentner, for you know of the Bible’s history. The Catholics that I know of - and there are millions of them where I live - have no clue as to how they got their Bibles. And to them, the Bible is just some holy book to be kept but not read. Have you heard the story of that curious little girl who, pointing to a Bible conspicuously displayed in their living room bookshelf, asked her mother, “Mama, whose book is that?” To which her mother sweetly replied, “That’s God’s book, my dear.” But the little girl remarked, “Don’t you think we should return that to him as nobody around here ever reads that book?” That joke must have been a jab against Catholics for they are known to be Bible keepers but not Bible readers.

Our Divine Lord, I suppose, wished that the unnumbered millions of human creatures born before the year 1500 should believe what He had taught and save their souls and go to Heaven, at least as much as those of the sixteenth and twentieth centuries; but how could they do this when they had no bibles, or were too poor to buy one, or could not read it even though they bought it, or could not understand it even if they could read it?

Your supposition does not conform to biblical teaching, therefore faulty. And by the way, you sound just like that priest Arnold Damen. He also used the word “Bible” to mean only the NT. Your speech also is always as fiery as his.

The Protestant theory, which bases a man’s salvation on the possession of the Bible, leads to the most flagrant absurdities, imputes to Almighty God.It ends logically in the blasphemous conclusion that our Jesus failed to provide an adequate means of conveying to men in every age the knowledge of His truth.
It would be impossibe for Christianity to benefit or even survive on the principle of ‘the Bible and the Bible only’ mentality.It would have ended before even being printed.
Really, I can not understand that otherwise intelligent non-Catholics have not awakened to that hollowness and absurdity. I can only suppose that they do not sufficiently realize, ‘read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest’ (as the English Prayer-Book says) this single item of history – the Bible was not printed till at least 1400 years after ChristSo it can’t bet the final authority. We contend that, the RCC is and must remain the spearhead to salvation.

I don’t think your Protestant brethren are that dumb to teach that man’s salvation is based on the possession of a Bible. What I know they teach is that truth must be based on what is revealed in the Bible.

This Protestant theory of yours if true is indeed blasphemous, hollow and absurd. But so too is the Catholic theory of salvation because it also claims to be the means of conveying the knowledge of salvation when 1) the RCC did not exist until the 2nd century, and 2) it has not, even now, reached all the places in this world for its message of salvation. It applies both ways, you know.

 

[Mannyfit75]

This Protestant theory of yours if true is indeed blasphemous, hollow and absurd. But so too is the Catholic theory of salvation because it also claims to be the means of conveying the knowledge of salvation when 1) the RCC did not exist until the 2nd century, and 2) it has not, even now, reached all the places in this world for its message of salvation. It applies both ways, you know.

This is an erroneous statement. The Catholic Church existed since the time of Jesus Christ. He founded the Catholic Church. He appointed Peter as the Rock whom he will build his Church upon. When he died, his authority was handed down to Linus in 67 AD, then Anacletus, and Clement of Rome, down to our current Pope, Benedict XVI.

 

[Mailman]

And it seems only one commandment was affected by this re-orientation: The Sabbath commandment. The Sabbath commandment CHANGED in its character and nature – from being God’s Rest Day into His Resurrection Day.
The commandment was not changed Keep holy the sabbath is still valid never changed. You are trying to impose “time” on God? He want us to contemplate Him and worship him weekly we do that. PERIOD!

He wants to impose time on us! Isn’t that not what HIS Sabbath command is all about? Why should I be accused of imposing time on Him, I didn’t make that law. He did! He says it is HIS Sabbath – “the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.” I would not have understood why a space of time is such a big deal to Him, until I read His reason why.

His fourth commandment (not mine), and my questions:

“REMEMBER the Sabbath day to keep it holy.”
Which day, Lord, Sunday? And why should I keep it holy?
“The seventh day is the Sabbath OF THE LORD thy God…”
Oh, it’s the seventh day, not Sunday. And why is it your Sabbath, Lord?
“For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day.”
Oh, I see. And what did you do, Lord, to make it holy?
“the Lord BLESSED the seventh day and HALLOWED it.” THUS SAITH THE LORD!

Now, did God bless Sunday and “de-blessed” the seventh day, so we now keep Sunday holy? And where did He say he wants us to contemplate Him and worship Him weekly (I must presume this “weekly” is every Sunday)?

So, you’re right, the old law was not abrogated. But, it was CHANGED.
The jewish people’s way of doing it was changed. To show that we follow Jesus. If you don’t follow Jesus, you wouldn’t understand.

Where did Jesus say the Jewish people’s way of doing it was changed? You accuse me of not following Jesus, yet you are the one not following Him by not obeying His Sabbath commandment.

 

[Mannyfit75]

He wants to impose time on us! Isn’t that not what HIS Sabbath command is all about? Why should I be accused of imposing time on Him, I didn’t make that law. He did! He says it is HIS Sabbath – “the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.” I would not have understood why a space of time is such a big deal to Him, until I read His reason why.

His fourth commandment (not mine), and my questions:

“REMEMBER the Sabbath day to keep it holy.”
Which day, Lord, Sunday? And why should I keep it holy?
“The seventh day is the Sabbath OF THE LORD thy God…”
Oh, it’s the seventh day, not Sunday. And why is it your Sabbath, Lord?
“For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day.”
Oh, I see. And what did you do, Lord, to make it holy?
“the Lord BLESSED the seventh day and HALLOWED it.” THUS SAITH THE LORD!

Now, did God bless Sunday and “de-blessed” the seventh day, so we now keep Sunday holy? And where did He say he wants us to contemplate Him and worship Him weekly (I must presume this “weekly” is every Sunday)?

Sunday worship has it’s foundations on Jesus rising on the third day which is a Sunday. He died on a Friday and rose from the dead on Sunday.

Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; John 20:1,19- the Gospel writers purposely reveal Jesus’ resurrection and appearances were on Sunday. This is because Sunday had now become the most important day in the life of the Church.

Acts 20:7 - this text shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the “first day of the week.” Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches “on the first day of the week,” which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says “let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath.”

2 Thess. 2:15 - we are to hold fast to apostolic tradition, whether it is oral or written. The 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church is that the apostles changed the Sabbath day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

Heb. 4:8-9 - regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of “another day,” which is Sunday, the new Sabbath. Sunday is the first day of the week and the first day of the new creation brought about by our Lord’s resurrection, which was on Sunday.

Heb. 7:12 - when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law as well. Because we have a new Priest and a new sacrifice, we also have a new day of worship, which is Sunday.

Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, the new day of rest in Christ.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. Since the resurrection, Mass has been principally celebrated on Sunday.

Where did Jesus say the Jewish people’s way of doing it was changed? You accuse me of not following Jesus, yet you are the one not following Him by not obeying His Sabbath commandment.

Jesus did not came to abolish the law but to fullfill in its fullness.

We worship on Sunday because Jesus Christ resurrected on the first day of the week. He is after all the “Lamb of God, the Paschal Lamb.”

 

[RobGentner]

Well, you do know the history of the Bible, Rob. I couldn’t agree with you more. But did the preacher (must be Protestant?) really say those words, or did you only make that up as a slight to your separated brethren?It is actually a true story that got a protestant minister dismissed by his congregation!

Do you want us to believe that Protestants do not know about this? I am no Protestant but I can say that they are A LOT MORE knowledgeable about the Bible than most Catholics.**Aren’t opinions great! ** In fact, the vast majority of Catholics do not know anything about the Bible other than the verses read to them in the Mass, much less its history. You are a rarity RobGentner, for you know of the Bible’s history. The Catholics that I know of - and there are millions of them where I live - have no clue as to how they got their Bibles. **When did you take that survey? **And to them, the Bible is just some holy book to be kept but not read. Have you heard the story of that curious little girl who, pointing to a Bible conspicuously displayed in their living room bookshelf, asked her mother, “Mama, whose book is that?” To which her mother sweetly replied, “That’s God’s book, my dear.” But the little girl remarked, “Don’t you think we should return that to him as nobody around here ever reads that book?” That joke must have been a jab against Catholics for they are known to be Bible keepers but not Bible readers.**We do not have to read the Bible to be saved or learn about God. The RCC has it rread to us on a 3 year cycle. We learn what we need to be pleasing to God and obtain eternal happiness.The more we know the harder we will be judged! **

Your supposition does not conform to biblical teaching, therefore faulty.**Aren’t you precious! :whacky: Actually they do conform to the RCC teachings they Bible is only a tool used by the church to teach truth. Not the entire, infalliable truth but you know that! ** And by the way, you sound just like that priest Arnold Damen. He also used the word “Bible” to mean only the NT. Your speech also is always as fiery as his.

I don’t think your Protestant brethren are that dumb to teach that man’s salvation is based on the possession of a Bible. What I know they teach is that truth must be based on what is revealed in the Bible.Ever hear of Sola Scriptura? how dumb is that?

This Protestant theory of yours if true is indeed blasphemous, hollow and absurd.**Bless your heart! :whacky: ** But so too is the Catholic theory of salvation **You are walking on Holy Ground be careful! **because it also claims to be the means of conveying the knowledge of salvation **IT IS!**when 1) the RCC did not exist until the 2nd century, **I love it when you are wrong and even you know it! and 2) it has not, even now, reached all the places in this world for its message of salvation.:coffeeread: ** It applies both ways, you know.

GOD BLESS!

**TO MY FRIEND: Johnny o, Please talk to Mailman for me. I am getting tired of typing the same things over and over. **

 

[RobGentner]

Sunday worship has it’s foundations on Jesus rising on the third day which is a Sunday. He died on a Friday and rose from the dead on Sunday.

Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; John 20:1,19- the Gospel writers purposely reveal Jesus’ resurrection and appearances were on Sunday. This is because Sunday had now become the most important day in the life of the Church.

Acts 20:7 - this text shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the “first day of the week.” Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches “on the first day of the week,” which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says “let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath.”

2 Thess. 2:15 - we are to hold fast to apostolic tradition, whether it is oral or written. The 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church is that the apostles changed the Sabbath day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

Heb. 4:8-9 - regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of “another day,” which is Sunday, the new Sabbath. Sunday is the first day of the week and the first day of the new creation brought about by our Lord’s resurrection, which was on Sunday.

Heb. 7:12 - when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law as well. Because we have a new Priest and a new sacrifice, we also have a new day of worship, which is Sunday.

Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, the new day of rest in Christ.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. Since the resurrection, Mass has been principally celebrated on Sunday.

Jesus did not came to abolish the law but to fullfill in its fullness.

We worship on Sunday because Jesus Christ resurrected on the first day of the week. He is after all the “Lamb of God, the Paschal Lamb.”

**Manny, Mailman knew all that. It is a game we call “Pete, Repeat” Mailman asks, we answer, he asks, we answer, he asks.we answer again, same questions same answers! Get the picture?

He is so precious! He know the answers before he asks He just tries to get someone to answer so he can ask them another question and then he repeats the question again!. What makes the game fun is when he twists what you say to make it mean something else, or ignores yuor response and asks another question!

OK, Now that you know the rules. Welcome to Pete, repeat!

Mailman Its your Turn!!! **

 

[RobGentner]

He wants to impose time on us! Isn’t that not what HIS Sabbath command is all about? **IS IT? Or about giving HIM some of our time? **Why should I be accused of imposing time on Him, I didn’t make that law. He did! He says it is HIS Sabbath – “the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.Do I act jewish?He wrote those laws to the Jews. My Lord told MY religion how hHe wanted His church to impliment the Laws He as God gave the Jess thousands of years ago.” I would not have understood why a space of time is such a big deal to Him, until I read His reason why.**Yea, Like you actually know! :dancing: **

His fourth commandment (not mine), and my questions:

“REMEMBER the Sabbath day to keep it holy.”
Which day, Lord, Sunday? And why should I keep it holy?
“The seventh day is the Sabbath OF THE LORD thy God…”
Oh, it’s the seventh day, not Sunday. And why is it your Sabbath, Lord?
“For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day.”
Oh, I see. And what did you do, Lord, to make it holy?
“the Lord BLESSED the seventh day and HALLOWED it.” THUS SAITH THE LORD!
**You sound like Dr Dino! Having conversations with GOD! **
Now, did God bless Sunday and “de-blessed” the seventh day, so we now keep Sunday holy? **Can you say JESUS? **And where did He say he wants us to contemplate Him and worship Him weekly **In the 10 commandments every 7 days! **(I must presume this “weekly” is every Sunday)?

Where did Jesus say the Jewish people’s way of doing it was changed? **His church decides what His people will do, Since as you “say and believe?” Jesus is the head of the RCC when the church said it it was Jesus saying it! **You accuse me of not following Jesus, yet you are the one not following Him by not obeying His Sabbath commandment

**.:coffeeread: I may have to go to confession for that. Let me check with my confessor. Thanks for alerting me!

:extrahappy: MAILMAN IS TOO CUTE! :extrahappy: **

 

[jdmayer]

Rob:

Off-topic but couldn’t help doing the math for the number of abortions per minute in the USA in your sig:

abortions per minute x minutes in an hour x hours in a day x days of the year = # of abortions per year in the USA (according to your data)

271 x 60 x 24 x 365 = 142,437,600 (!!!)

Something’s clearly wrong with these numbers, since the US population itself is just over 300 million.

National Right-to-Life’s website (www.nrlc.org) puts the number of abortions in the US since Roe v Wade (1973) at 48,589,993. Still an appalling number but only about 1/3 of the amount you are claiming happen EACH YEAR.

In the US, in the last 10 years, there have been about 900,000 abortions each year.

900,000 / 365 / 24 / 60 = about 1.7 abortions per minute in the USA.

Again, still truly horrible but less than one percent of the number of abortions you claim to be occuring.

Unless I did my math wrong!

 

[RobGentner]

Rob:

Off-topic but couldn’t help doing the math for the number of abortions per minute in the USA in your sig:**I am guessing you work for IRS **

abortions per minute x minutes in an hour x hours in a day x days of the year = # of abortions per year in the USA (according to your data) 271 x 60 x 24 x 365 = 142,437,600 (!!!)Agree!

Something’s clearly wrong with these numbers, since the US population itself is just over 300 million.Yup!

National Right-to-Life’s website (www.nrlc.org) puts the number of abortions in the US since Roe v Wade (1973) at 48,589,993. Still an appalling number but only about 1/3 of the amount you are claiming happen EACH YEAR.

In the US, in the last 10 years, there have been about 900,000 abortions each year.

900,000 / 365 / 24 / 60 = about 1.7 abortions per minute in the USA.

Again, still truly horrible but less than one percent of the number of abortions you claim to be occuring.

Unless I did my math wrong!

**
jdmayer, I never did the math, My Bad! I was given that figure from some pro-life site. Maybe they were talking work week? But, even one Murder is one** too many.

Thanks for alerting me.:tiphat: I, unlike “some” people (looking around) don’t like to spread or indorse FALSE information or teachings.

I am organizing a link in a “Life Chain” that expects to reach over 3 miles on 28 September. I am involved in the 40 days and night protest across the street from Planned Parenthood Headquarters (Funny name for a slauder house!) that started here in San Antonio on 24 September.

God Bless
ROB!~

 

[RobGentner]

Rob:

Off-topic but couldn’t help doing the math for the number of abortions per minute in the USA in your sig:

abortions per minute x minutes in an hour x hours in a day x days of the year = # of abortions per year in the USA (according to your data)

271 x 60 x 24 x 365 = 142,437,600 (!!!)

Something’s clearly wrong with these numbers, since the US population itself is just over 300 million.

National Right-to-Life’s website (www.nrlc.org) puts the number of abortions in the US since Roe v Wade (1973) at 48,589,993. Still an appalling number but only about 1/3 of the amount you are claiming happen EACH YEAR.

In the US, in the last 10 years, there have been about 900,000 abortions each year.

900,000 / 365 / 24 / 60 = about 1.7 abortions per minute in the USA.

Again, still truly horrible but less than one percent of the number of abortions you claim to be occuring.

Unless I did my math wrong!

**
I updated my signature to read 1.7 children. It changed it through out the postings, old and new!! Kind of like what the protestants do to the truth in the Catholic Bible when they update their versions. **

 

[Mailman]

So we had to change our understanding because God doesn’t change

If you say that, then you are saying that the RCC was in error initially. If the RCC did not have the truth initially, then it did not have God’s Holy Spirit: “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13). And therefore, the RCC is “none of His” – not Christian: “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his” (Rom. 8:9).

We wrote the bible! Lets make the sabbath Wednesday! Who cares? God wants us to spend one day worshiping Him. He is unlimited don’t limit worshipping Him! to a day that even you don’t observe.

You guys did? Oh, you mean the NT (I forgot the OT is not part of your Bible)? If you did, the Bible would be so messed up that it would be full of contradictions and fables. But as it is now, the Bible is factual, consistent, harmonious, and above all without any error – in its original writings, that is. And where did God say He wants us to spend just any day in seven to worship Him? Is that in the bible that the RCC wrote? And how do you know I don’t observe God’s day?

the day of the week doesn’t matter. We still celebrate the Sabbath.

How could one say he still celebrate the Sabbath while observing Sunday, when the Sabbath is the seventh day according to God? God blessed the Sabbath to make it holy – to make it separate from the other days of the week because it is His day – “the Sabbath of the lord thy God.” Unless He is not your God, you don’t have to keep that day holy.

Remember Jesus defended his disciples when the Jews attacked them for not observing the Sabbath, ending his comments by saying: “For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath” (Mt. 12:1–8). Or again, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath” (Mk. 2:27). Why did Jesus say that?

Why indeed? You said “Jesus perfectly observed the Sabbath” [while on earth], and He did. Jesus rebuking the Jews was not because He wanted to do away with the Sabbath but because, as you correctly pointed out, the Jews had “too severe an interpretation of the Sabbath law.” The Pharisees of Jesus’ day observed some 65 stern regulations of “do’s” and “don’ts” which the rabbis had instituted. They had made Sabbath observance a “yoke of bondage.” By rebuking the Jews, Jesus swept those human regulations aside. The Sabbath was made FOR man – as a BLESSING to man. It was made to be enjoyed – to spiritually refresh, in blessed fellowship and communion with Christ.

Jesus showed the Jews how to properly observe the Sabbath. Now, come to think of it, would Jesus go to the extent of doing that but then just a short 3-1/2 years later he would change the seventh day observance to Sunday to commemorate His resurrection? Impossible!

Jesus Christ says, “The Sabbath was made FOR MAN” – for all mankind. So, then, it was made WHEN man was made – at the time of Adam! There were no Jewish people then. God does not have one standard for the Jew and another for the Gentile. “There is neither Jew nor Greek… for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye [Gentiles] be Christ’s then are ye Abraham’s seed and heirs…” (Gal.3:28-29).

To continue, let me quote one article defending the Sabbath:

“You cannot find any such term as ‘the Jewish Sabbath’ anywhere in the Bible. That is a derisive, scornful, contemptuous epithet. It came from non-Christians “wolves in sheep’s clothing” as Christ labeled them. They intended to deceive by creating prejudice against the Truth of God. It is the slurring, discrediting, misleading language and terminology employed by deceivers, false prophets, and upholders of pagan doctrines and customs contrary to God’s Word. It is not Bible language!”

 

[Mailman]

However, after he enunciated a new covenant at the Last Supper, his emphasis seems to be on Sundays. Sunday was the day he was found to have been resurrected, and his first two appearance to the twelve disciples were on the following two Sundays (Jn. 20:19, 20:26). Again, five weeks later—on Sunday—the Holy Spirit descended on the apostles.

Wouldn’t we be treading on dangerous ground if we change a law of God on a mere allusion? It may SEEM to point to that, but unless there is a clear, plain and definitive command, it may not be so. The seriousness of the matter demands the greatest prudence from us.

While there was much debate in Jerusalem on whether or not Gentile Christians should be exempted from circumcision, the council was silent on the matter of Sabbath worship; this suggests that Sabbath versus Sunday worship was not an issue at that time. Why make it an issue now?

Is it possible that the Sabbath versus Sunday worship was not an issue before because the Gentile converts then were observing the Sabbath without question? Notice what happened in Antioch after Paul finished preaching in the synagogue one Sabbath day: “And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them THE NEXT SABBATH” (Acts 13:42). And did the Gentiles come the next Sabbath? Yes, and not only they, but almost the whole city came! “And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God” (verse 44). Now, this also proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that after Christ’s resurrection, the seventh-day Sabbath was still the day to assemble to hear the Word of God – it is still His Day.

 

[Mailman]

Sunday worship has it’s foundations on Jesus rising on the third day which is a Sunday. He died on a Friday and rose from the dead on Sunday.

Hi Manny,
Thanks for examining the Sabbath question based on what is revealed in Scripture. I believe that is how God wants us to establish the truth. As Jesus said, “thy word is truth” (John 17:17).

Firstly, Jesus did not die on a Friday and rise on a Sunday. This can be proven from the account of Jesus’ death and resurrection in the NT and from OT prophecy. Furthermore, Jesus would not have proven He was the Messiah had He died on Friday and rose on Sunday, as He would not have been in the grave for three days and three nights. Remember the Jews asked Jesus for a sign to prove He was the Messiah. Jesus said the only sign He would give was the sign of the prophet Jonas, “For as Jonas was three days and three nights…” Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning is only 2 nights and 1 day.

Let me now address the Scriptures that you brought up.

Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2; John 20:1– Notice that when they got there early that first day of the week [Sunday], Jesus was already risen. It does not say He rose that Sunday morning, but that He was already risen. Jesus could have risen on Saturday evening.

Mark 16:9 – “Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene…” Same thing, Jesus was already risen on Sunday morning. The intent of the writer was to reveal who Jesus appeared to first that Sunday morning, because that was His first opportunity to show Himself. Also, in the Greek language of the NT, there are no punctuation marks. Punctuations were supplied by the translators depending on how they understand the sentence. By repositioning the comma the text becomes, “Now when Jesus was risen, early the first day of the week he appeared first to Mary Magdalene….” With this rendering the first day of the week is only associated with Jesus’ appearance to Mary Magdalene.

John 20:19 – The disciples did not assemble because it was the first day of the week. Notice that it says, “the disciples were assembled FOR FEAR OF THE JEWS.”

Acts 20:7 – I have addressed this on my previous post. This is not a Sunday, but a Saturday night. This would show, not that the disciples were meeting on Sundays, but that they still observed the seventh day Sabbath. Paul was preaching that Saturday until the wee hours of the night “ready to depart on the morrow,” that is, at break of day Sunday morning.

Notice what happened: “And we [Paul’s companions] went before to ship, and sailed unto Assos, there intending to take in Paul: for so he appointed, minding himself to go afoot. And when he met us at Assos, we took him in” (verse 13-14).

When you look at a map of Asia Minor, Paul’s companions had to sail around a peninsula, a distance of 50 or 60 miles, while Paul, afoot, had to walk a distance of 10 miles. Paul’s companions set sail that Saturday night while Paul remained for one last farewell sermon. Then, at daybreak Sunday, Paul set out to walk the 10 or so miles to Assos. Notice that Paul waited until the Sabbath was past for the long walk to Assos. His companions also sailed after the Sabbath ended. This shows us that Sunday was a common workday then.

2 Thess. 2:15 – The Scriptures do not show the apostles changed the Sabbath. On the contrary, a lot of Scriptures show the apostles kept the Sabbath.

Heb. 7:12 – The context talks about the tithing law. “Change in the law” should therefore not be construed as referring to the Ten Commandments law. And why would it be necessary to have a change in the day of worship with a new High Priest and a new sacrifice? Would there be a problem if we keep the worship day?

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 – The text does not say to bind and loose a law of God. The context in Matthew 18 gives us an idea what may be “bound” and “loosed.”
(Continued next post)