How long will it take for non-Catholics to finally accept Catholicism?

[Mailman]

1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches “on the first day of the week,” which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

Heb. 4:8-9 - regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of “another day,” which is Sunday, the new Sabbath. Sunday is the first day of the week and the first day of the new creation brought about by our Lord’s resurrection, which was on Sunday.

Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, the new day of rest in Christ.

Continuation

1 Cor. 16:2 – Paul here did not ask for contributions to be given to the churches on Sundays because they would meet to worship on Sundays. Notice it says, “Now concerning the collection for the saints…” The collection was for the poor saints at Jerusalem who were suffering from drought and famine. They did not need money, but food. Paul said he gave a similar instruction to the other churches. Notice his instruction to the Romans:

“But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia [where the Corinthian church was located] to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem… When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain” (Rom. 15:25-28).

Notice it was not money but fruit that was being sealed for shipment. The Greek word used can also refer to grain, wine, and other produce. Since this is the same instruction given to the Corinthians, the thing for collection must be the same –FRUIT. Notice: “Let every one of you lay by him in store” – meaning store up by himself, at home not lay be at the church house. Why? “That there be no gatherings when I come.” The people were to gather fruit or farm produce and store them up on the first day of the week so that when Paul comes, the fruit would be ready.

Notice further verses 3-4 Paul says, “… THEM [more than 1] will I send to bring your liberality UNTO JERUSALEM. And if it be meet that I go also, THEY [more than 1] shall go with me.” Apparently, it was going to require several men to carry the collection to Jerusalem. If it were collection money, Paul could have carried it alone.

So on this text, we find that the first day of the week, after the Sabbath was past, is a regular work day of gathering fruit.

Heb. 4:8-9 – Chapters 3 and 4 talks about God’s people entering into “rest.” The Israelites in the wilderness wanted to enter God’s “rest” – meaning to finally cease from wandering and settle in the Promised Land. And that did happen in the days of Joshua. Yet, also mentioned here is the fact that God later inspired David to write of entering God’s rest as something still future: “For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not have spoken of another day.” This is speaking of the coming millennial rest when Christ will rule on earth, as the future Kingdom of God is the “Promised Land” for true Christians.

It is in this context that we come to Heb. 4:9: “There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.” In every case in chapters 3 and 4, the Greek word for physical rest – katapausin – is used for God’s rest. But in this verse, God inspired a different word to be used – sabbatismos. The “Anchor Bible Dictionary” says that sabbatismos refers to “seventh-day sabbath celebration.” Thus, this clearly shows that the seventh-day Sabbath –keeping is to continue for true Christians. The “Commentary on the Whole Bible” by Jamieson, Fausset & Brown also confirms this: “This verse indirectly establishes the obligation of the Sabbath still; for the type continues until the anti-type supersedes it.”

Rev 1:10 – This text is not referring to any day of the week. It says simply, “I was in the spirit on the Lord’s day.” The book of Revelation is a prophecy of end time events. The “Lord’s day” is synonymous with the “Day of the Lord” mentioned 30 times in the OT and NT and is that future time when God will intervene in human affairs, culminating in the second coming of Jesus Christ to rule the world “with a rod of iron.”

There is not one single passage in the Bible identifying Sunday or the first day of the week as “the Lord’s day.” However, even if this were really talking about a day of the week, it would not be Sunday. The “Lord’s Day” is the day the Lord is lord of – the day that is His day – and in Mark 2:28 Jesus Christ said He is Lord of the Sabbath – not Sunday. Also: “But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.” Not the Sabbath “of the Jewish people” – but “of the Lord thy God.”

 

[Mailman]

Jesus did not came to abolish the law but to fullfill in its fullness.

We worship on Sunday because Jesus Christ resurrected on the first day of the week. He is after all the “Lamb of God, the Paschal Lamb.”

Hi Manny,
You know, I find it hard to understand how we can say that Jesus did not come to abolish the law, yet there was a change in the Sabbath command. We claim that He did not abolish it, only changed or transformed or re-orient it. But the inescapable fact remains that a law was replaced by another. That law that was replaced of course had to be disannulled or abolished first before the new law can take effect. So, really there was an abolishment of the original law. But even if no law was abolished, only changed a little bit, it would still go against what Jesus said because He clarified His statement by continuing, “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law…”

Now, if we reason that there had to be a change because Jesus said He came to fulfill the law in its fullness, we could ask: Why would a Sabbath law that points to God’s rest from creation be fulfilled in its fullness by His resurrection? There is absolutely no connection between the two. His command said we rest on the Sabbath because on that day He rested from His work of creation. Now, we are saying that we rest on Sunday because Jesus rose on that day. Why should His resurrection be a fulfillment of His rest on the Sabbath? The Sabbath was about the Creation. It identifies God as the one who created all things. The resurrection on the other hand, is about Jesus’ conquering death so that we may conquer death as well.

Now, one may ask: How could the law be fulfilled in its fullness without doing any change to the law? Jesus said He came to “fulfill” or “make full” the law. But how did Jesus “fulfill” the law – let it come into its fullness? Isaiah says of Jesus: “…he will magnify the law, and make it honorable” (Isaiah 42:21).

Jesus MAGNIFIED the law or made it come into its fullness by putting the law in a higher spiritual plane. He now requires the law to be kept it in its spiritual intent rather than just in its literal meaning. With the advent of the New Covenant promise of the Holy Spirit, God can now magnify – or enlarge – His commandments from the keeping of the law in the letter, as commanded under the Old Covenant, to the original intent that God desired from the beginning.

This is why on that discourse, Jesus kept referring to the points of the Old law and explained how it should now be kept. “Ye have heard that it was said by them in old time [by God’s law-givers under the Old Covenant], thou shalt not commit adultery [physically]: but I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her [mentally] hath [already] committed adultery with her in his heart" (Mat. 5:27, 28). This is keeping the law according to its spirit and intent. Now it is counted a sin if one lets the THOUGHT of adultery enter the mind, or lets it dwell on sinful acts of any other kind.

Keeping the law in its spiritual intent is of course not possible without God’s Holy Spirit. That is why the New Covenant enables man to have the spiritual power of the Holy Spirit to accomplish this feat. The Holy Spirit guides us not only to control our actions, but to control our thoughts and our attitudes. In part, the New Covenant is the process of God writing His law in our hearts and minds (Heb. 8:10).

Christ came to pay His own life the penalty for our sins. He makes it possible for us to receive the Holy Spirit whereby we can fulfill the law also, and thereby ultimately enter into the New Covenant relationship with Him. Christ came to “fulfill the law.” He, Himself, fulfilled it by obeying it, and has made it possible for “whomever will” to fulfill or obey it in the SPIRIT, as well as the letter.

When we understand Jesus’ statement of fulfilling the law in this way, we would be consistent with His previous statement that He did not come to abolish the law. The law is still there. All of it is still binding. Nothing has changed. Not “one jot or one tittle” was removed. The law is only made more binding by magnifying its true meaning and intent.

God bless.

 

[RobGentner]

Wouldn’t we be treading on dangerous ground if we change a law of God on a mere allusion? It may SEEM to point to that, but unless there is a clear, plain and definitive command, it may not be so. The seriousness of the matter demands the greatest prudence from us.

Not at all, because being His only true church we can change what we want that doesn’t interfeer wuth the Thruths God was teaching!
Is it possible that the Sabbath versus Sunday worship was not an issue before because the Gentile converts then were observing the Sabbath without question? Maybe, maybe not, who know? :coffeeread: who cares? Notice what happened in Antioch after Paul finished preaching in the synagogue one Sabbath day: “And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them THE NEXT SABBATH” (Acts 13:42). And did the Gentiles come the next Sabbath? Yes, and not only they, but almost the whole city came! “And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God” (verse 44). Now, this also proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt,Then why do I doubt it? And why does my Church disagree with you? that is how many MILLIO of people "with a doubt!" that after Christ’s resurrection, the seventh-day Sabbath was still the day to assemble to hear the Word of God **Maybe it was! **– it is still His Day.**Nope, SUNDAY IS! Sorry, you are wrong again! **/QUOTE]

 

[Mailman]

Hi all!
Here’s a post from forum member “Arglaze” in the thread “How do Catholics explain 1 Tim. 2:5 and Heb. 7:26?” The post was dated September 9th. I’m posting it here because the issue about the RCC being 2000 years old and therefore must be the true church has been mentioned here a couple of times. He’s explained it well here on why, even granting that that claim is true, the RCC could still not be the true church now.

Quote:
I understand the love Catholics have for their church, and will defend it at any cost, however The adherence to the Scriptures are the test by which God’s people are identified, not a name or a group (my church included).

I hear a lot about the Catholics being 2000 years old, but that doesn’t guaranty its fidelity to Christ. If we want to go by the age, then we should go back to the Israel that rejected our Lord. It sounds ridiculous, but check it out.

1. Israel is older than the Catholic Church.
2. They too were also founded by Jesus himself.
   John 5:46-47 - “For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?” Jesus was that cloud leading them, also the fire by night, Jesus founded Israel, just like he did, the Apostolic Church.

However, that same Church he founded turned against Him when He came to his own. And they received Him not, because of their “traditions”, which men made under what they thought was the inspiration of God for the good of the church. They made the commandments of God (His Word, the Scriptures) void.

Jesus said:
Mark 7:13 “Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.”

And ultimately they crucified Him, and persecuted the “heretics” that were destroying the “tradition” by simply preaching the Word of God found in the Scriptures.

There’s a lesson to be learned there, and Jesus states it in plain simple language. God’s people are identified for their following the Word of God, not their church’s age or traditions.

Luke 8:21 - “And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the Word of God, and do it.” (not them that hear the traditions of rabbis because the church is old)

Men’s traditions, for as good as they may appear don’t have God backing their word. And adding or taking from Jesus’ Word is breaking his commandments.
Matthew 15:9 - “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

Tradition is not what’s translated into what we know as Bible. A compilation of Books is what the word Bible means. But in these books is recorded the story of God dealings with humanity, and what God himself has spoken, therefore the Scriptures are the Word of God, making it the ultimate Authority in matters of Faith, salvation, and to determine who God’s people are.

The saints are “they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” Rev. 14:12

God has magnified the Scriptures above everything, even the psalmist under the inspiration of the Spirit says:

Psalm 138:2 - “I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy loving kindness and for thy truth: for Thou hast magnified thy Word above all thy name.”

If there was no man alive and all you had was the Word of God, that alone is sufficient to understand the providences of God. No tradition added to it.

End Quote.

 

[RobGentner]

Originally Posted by Mannyfit75
Sunday worship has it’s foundations on Jesus rising on the third day which is a Sunday. He died on a Friday and rose from the dead on Sunday.

Hi Manny,
Thanks for examining the Sabbath question based on what is revealed in Scripture. I believe that is how God wants us to establish the truth. As Jesus said, “thy word is truth” (John 17:17).
**Great trick! Thanking him before you “destroy” his valid explanation with your interpertation of what the bible says. Not caring what God’s Church Teaches or says! **
Firstly, Jesus did not die on a Friday and rise on a Sunday. This can be proven from the account of Jesus’ death and resurrection in the NT and from OT prophecy. Furthermore, Jesus would not have proven He was the Messiah had He died on Friday and rose on Sunday, as He would not have been in the grave for three days and three nights. Remember the Jews asked Jesus for a sign to prove He was the Messiah. Jesus said the only sign He would give was the sign of the prophet Jonas, “For as Jonas was three days and three nights…” Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning is only 2 nights and 1 day.

** I believe because my church says it is so. I have FAITH in my Church and my Savior. I think that the thing that confuses modern people is that the scripture says the day on which Jesus was crucified was the preparation for the sabbath because it was the day before the sabbath. Nevertheless, we must remember that Paul speaks of “sabbath days”. There was the seventh-day** sabbath, and there were seven other days of rest, given in Leviticus 23, which could fall on any days of the week, and they were all called high sabbaths. It could be that it was for one of these such days that the Jews were preparing. John 19:31, “for that sabbath day was an high day…” Passover was not usually a Sabbath, but is the preparation for the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is one of these seven annual high sabbaths. The Bottom line to me. Jesus said He would be in the Tomb for Three days and Nights.He was! That doesn’t make the RCC church wrong, why would it? Because they make a celebration fit into a religious calender? We celebrate nor re-inact hour by hour, Jesus death.

Let me now address the Scriptures that you brought up.**Why do you take so much pain to prove that you read the bible. I believe you! That doesn’t make you correct nor an authority on the Catholic Church our beliefs nor our salvation. It makes you a student of the bible. For your sake I sincerely hope on the day of Judgement there is a final quiz on the bible not on the works that you did that the bible outlined.
**

Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2; John 20:1– Notice that when they got there early that first day of the week [Sunday], Jesus was already risen. It does not say He rose that Sunday morning, but that He was already risen. Jesus could have risen on Saturday evening.

Mark 16:9 – “Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene…” Same thing, Jesus was already risen on Sunday morning. The intent of the writer was to reveal who Jesus appeared to first that Sunday morning, because that was His first opportunity to show Himself. Also, in the Greek language of the NT, there are no punctuation marks. Punctuations were supplied by the translators depending on how they understand the sentence. By repositioning the comma the text becomes, “Now when Jesus was risen, early the first day of the week he appeared first to Mary Magdalene….” With this rendering the first day of the week is only associated with Jesus’ appearance to Mary Magdalene.

John 20:19 – The disciples did not assemble because it was the first day of the week. Notice that it says, “the disciples were assembled FOR FEAR OF THE JEWS.”

Acts 20:7 – I have addressed this on my previous post. This is not a Sunday, but a Saturday night. This would show, not that the disciples were meeting on Sundays, but that they still observed the seventh day Sabbath. Paul was preaching that Saturday until the wee hours of the night “ready to depart on the morrow,” that is, at break of day Sunday morning.

Notice what happened: “And we [Paul’s companions] went before to ship, and sailed unto Assos, there intending to take in Paul: for so he appointed, minding himself to go afoot. And when he met us at Assos, we took him in” (verse 13-14).

When you look at a map of Asia Minor, Paul’s companions had to sail around a peninsula, a distance of 50 or 60 miles, while Paul, afoot, had to walk a distance of 10 miles. Paul’s companions set sail that Saturday night while Paul remained for one last farewell sermon. Then, at daybreak Sunday, Paul set out to walk the 10 or so miles to Assos. Notice that Paul waited until the Sabbath was past for the long walk to Assos. His companions also sailed after the Sabbath ended. This shows us that Sunday was a common workday then.

2 Thess. 2:15 – The Scriptures do not show the apostles changed the Sabbath. On the contrary, a lot of Scriptures show the apostles kept the Sabbath.

Heb. 7:12 – The context talks about the tithing law. “Change in the law” should therefore not be construed as referring to the Ten Commandments law. And why would it be necessary to have a change in the day of worship with a new High Priest and a new sacrifice? Would there be a problem if we keep the worship day?

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 – The text does not say to bind and loose a law of God. The context in Matthew 18 gives us an idea what may be “bound” and “loosed.”

                                   (Continued next post)