How many angels can fit on the head of a pin?

[tjfitz]

I have read that the source of the angels dancing on the head of a pin phrase is in the works of the Centuriators of Magdeburg. You can read about them in the online Catholic Encyclopedia oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Centuriators_of_Magdeburg

The ending sentences of the article say a lot: “Through the ages no crime is too monstrous, no story too incredible, provided it furnish a means of blackening the memory of the occupants of Peter’s Chair. It was this work, stigmatized by Canisius as opus pestilentissimum, that led Cesare Baronius (q.v.) to write his ‘Annales Ecclesiastici’, in twelve folio volumes (Rome, 1588-1607), covering the period from the birth of Christ to the year 1198. Such was its success that it completely superseded the work of the Centuriators, the principal value of which now is its use as a key to the historical arguments of Protestant controversial writers in the late sixteenth and the seventeenth century.”

 

[JimG]

I’ve always been annoyed when people bring up this question as a way to make fun of philosophy and theology … even if they do it without the intention of criticizing scholasticism!

Actually, I believe that the question posed in the thread title was never originated by scholastic philosophers, but rather by opponents of scholasticism trying to make fun of and discredit their work.

 

[e61iuser]

The answer:

As many as God wants to fit on the head of a pin. No more, no less.

 

[liquidpele]

The answer:

As many as God wants to fit on the head of a pin. No more, no less.

“Because I said so”

 

[jazzbass981]

How’s this for an answer? With God ALL things are possible!

 

[Areopagite]

Actually, I believe that the question posed in the thread title was never originated by scholastic philosophers, but rather by opponents of scholasticism trying to make fun of and discredit their work.

Yes, that is possible. I even acknowledged that in my previous post. And my claim was that this question is still technically legit and should not be laughed at … too much.

How’s this for an answer? With God ALL things are possible!

Well, yes. But the question seems to ask what is possible for an angel. That is, from the little we know in angelology regarding the natural possibilities of spirits to interact with matter, can they do such and such without divine intervention to enable angels to do things that they would not normally be able to do? At least, that’s one possible interpretation of the problem.

Also, it is good to note that when some people hear “With God all things are possible” they think that God can even contradict metaphysical reality. But I say, as well as Aquinas and, as far as I know, all Catholic theologians who have been recognized as a long-standing authority on these matters that God cannot contradict logic and the very nature of being itself. But that’s just me … and Aquinas and those others.

So, saying “With God all things are possible” is not necessarily a fast-acting panacea for theological questions, for reason must still be used diligently even with regard to supernatural realities, which are also subject to logic … even in matters regarding this angel-needle question … in my opinion.

 

[cerad]

The question is interesting because ALL theological questions can be reduced to “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin”. As this thread shows, you can make up whatever answer you like without any risk of being incorrect. Which of course is also true for any other theological question.

In other words: it is all just make believe.

 

[Areopagite]

The question is interesting because ALL theological questions can be reduced to “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin”. As this thread shows, you can make up whatever answer you like without any risk of being incorrect. Which of course is also true for any other theological question.

In other words: it is all just make believe.

Huh?

"All theological questions can be reduced to ‘how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?’ … what does that even mean? Many theological questions do not pertain to angels, pins, spiritual beings intervening in the material universe, and the nature of space. I don’t understand what you mean by “reduced.”

Also, this thread does not show that you can make up whatever answer you like without any risk of being incorrect. I apologize if I said something that led you to think that. I would say that I have been arguing against that very thing by stating that God’s omnipotence does not contradict metaphysical necessity. I think there is a definite truth, based on metaphysics and the data given to us by divine revelation.

Now, granted that you may not accept divine revelation, do you also reject metaphysics? Not all atheists reject metaphysics, for if one does, then logic goes out the window, and then nothing makes sense.

The belief that “any answer is correct” is not a theological belief of Christianity, it’s a modernist belief of relativism. There is nothing so opposed to relativism than Christian theology. Why would you make a case otherwise? Back up your claims, please, and don’t just say things without giving some reason why. Surely, you can do that. Or do you **not **accept reason either? (some atheists don’t) … just wondering.

 

[PJM]

=Suslar;5367710]Someone teaching the 4 pillars class on Creed was talking about angels and “things unseen.”

She went on to say that in the Middle Ages, theologians fought about the answer to the question “How many angels can fit on the head of a pin?” (Yes, I’ve also heard the expression as “How many angels can dance on the point of a sharp needle?”)

Then she said The Church agreed on a specific number.

Really? Has anyone else heard of this?

I thought that in the Middle Ages, it was St. Thomas Aquinas dealing with the crazy questions because non-Christian philosophers were trying to “prove” the existence or non-existence of God buy debunking the old “Take it on faith” policy and use reason & logic. I am hoping Aquinas gave the answer as “an infinite number” since we can’t put human limits and qualifiers on the spiritual realm. But now I’m confused since the instructor of this class seems to think there is an actual number. HELP!!!

And since it is a class, I’ll need references, please.

As you yourself seem to indicate the OP question is about as revelant as my responce.

Depends on the size of the pin-head

 

[liquidpele]

Huh?

"All theological questions can be reduced to ‘how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?’ … what does that even mean? Many theological questions do not pertain to angels, pins, spiritual beings intervening in the material universe, and the nature of space. I don’t understand what you mean by “reduced.”

Was his post really that hard to understand for you? He’s basically posting a condemnation of all theology, saying that such religious arguments, no matter the subject, are just as irrelevant as discussing the question posed in this thread - meaning there is no relevance and it’s all fantasy.

 

[Areopagite]

Was his post really that hard to understand for you? He’s basically posting a condemnation of all theology, saying that such religious arguments, no matter the subject, are just as irrelevant as discussing the question posed in this thread - meaning there is no relevance and it’s all fantasy. Understand?

Oh, yes, I understand he was condemning all theology. What I didn’t understand was his reasons for doing so. It might have been obvious to some people, but not to everyone. One reason why it probably wasn’t obvious was that he actually didn’t state his reasons … or am I wrong? All he said was that “this thread proves you can believe whatever you want in Christianity and you’ll be correct … so, thus, Christianity is wrong.” I was asking how this thread indicates that whatsoever.

Even if one assumes that Scripture is bunk and there is no God and whatever, there are still certain set beliefs in Christianity that should not be contradicted in a religious argument if one is trying to come up with an idea consistent with Christianity (which is what we’re trying to do). Do you see? Just because a logical syllogism has false premises does not make all arguments with those premises invalid. The conclusion may be false because of our premises but the argument can still be argued logically and validly. Cerad was denying that we were even being logical … I guess, and I’m wondering why. It’s the old validity vs. value vs. soundness distinctions in logic that seem to be getting mixed up here.

But I challenge you, Cerad, to elucidate your claims. Don’t beat yourself up though.

 

[liquidpele]

Oh, yes, I understand he was condemning all theology. What I didn’t understand was his reasons for doing so. It might have been obvious to some people, but not to everyone. One reason why it probably wasn’t obvious was that he actually didn’t state his reasons … or am I wrong? All he said was that “this thread proves you can believe whatever you want in Christianity and you’ll be correct … so, thus, Christianity is wrong.” I was asking how this thread indicates that whatsoever.

Even if one assumes that Scripture is bunk and there is no God and whatever, there are still certain set beliefs in Christianity that should not be contradicted in a religious argument if one is trying to come up with an idea consistent with Christianity (which is what we’re trying to do). Do you see? Just because a logical syllogism has false premises does not make all arguments with those premises invalid. The conclusion may be false because of our premises but the argument can still be argued logically and validly. Cerad was denying that we were even being logical … I guess, and I’m wondering why. It’s the old validity vs. value vs. soundness distinctions in logic that seem to be getting mixed up here.

But I challenge you, Cerad, to elucidate your claims. Don’t beat yourself up though.

I’ll try and explain his point of view. If you were on a forum where everyone was arguing about how many of fairies Zeus could fit onto Mt. Olympus, you would likely feel the same way an atheist feels in this thread. Basically, the “why” is that his comments presuppose the non existence of God, and thus any theological explanation (which by definition must involve the Deity in question, even if only indirectly) thus brings what amounts to some degree of perceived absurdity to the discussion even if there is a real issue or answer involved.

Now having said that, I personally disagree with it. I think that people discuss and act out silly things all the time in order to accomplish goals, so condemning such discussion and behaviour is to condemn the social aspects of humanity in a way. For instance, imagination and playing is a critical part of a person’s development in life. Furthermore, the different ways that people learn (visual, Auditory, Kinesthetic, and Tactile) displays the wide array of needs during discussion within a group. I do think that sometimes people loose track of assumptions that were made and can go too far on a tangent, but I believe it is a normal part of a discussion - if only one particular path or view were acceptable then the discussion would be somewhat meaningless beyond serving as confirmation.

 

[meridith]

How many angels do you need? Then at least tripple that and ask God to multiply that, ( but why would you need angels on a head of a pin)

 

[CMSUVulcan]

One . . . two . . . . (chomp). . . . three. Three angels can fit on the head of a pin, no wait I’m sorry I got that question confused with the old tootsie pop commercial. Seriously, I don’t think God would allow the angels to waste a lot of time figuring out how many could stand on the tip of a pin and nor should we. However, the answer would be infinite because angels are spirit, and although they can take physical shape they are spirit.

 

[real2all]

I remember a T.V. series that used to come on and one of my favorite. Called Babylon 5 a sci-fi series that came on in the mid to late 80’s. They had this question on one of its showings. “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin”? After hearing that I really wanted to know the answer. The answer was quiet simple and reasonable. “As many as wants too”. Simple direct and to the point, I really like those kind of answers. No long winded statements, No self rightous answers that only try to confirm someones elses opinion. “As many as wants too”.

 

[Watchman]

I’ll try and explain his point of view. If you were on a forum where everyone was arguing about how many of fairies Zeus could fit onto Mt. Olympus, you would likely feel the same way an atheist feels in this thread.

The question then becomes “Why have I chosen to visit a forum devoted to arguing about faeries and Zeus? And, once there, why am I bothered to find people doing just that?”

 

[liquidpele]

The question then becomes “Why have I chosen to visit a forum devoted to arguing about faeries and Zeus? And, once there, why am I bothered to find people doing just that?”

I can’t speak for others, but I personally like poking you guys with metaphorical sticks. The ideas that people hold as beliefs are very interesting to me… although I’ll admit that I myself even get frustrated at times when someone doesn’t see (or refuses to consider) my point of view. I chose this particular forum because Catholics are generally more civil and knowledgeable than other branches of Christianity from my personal experience, and most other forums are filled with either deists (which I tend to agree with on many things) or a mixture of creationists and trolls.

 

[Daniel_Dugan]

Can spirit beings be counted? I believe they can even though they are spirit. God is Spirit and God is One and One is a figure, so that settles the argument about whether spirits can or cannot be counted.
Now how many angels are there? They are in the infinity. Some theologians came out with an answer which could be correct. They are 9 Choirs of Angels and the lower class (The 9th Choir) are 10 times more than all humans who lived beginning with Adam and Eve and who are living now. The 8th are 10 times more than the 9th; the 7th are 10 times more than the 8th; the 6th are 10 times more than the 7th; the 5th, 10 times more than the 6th; the 4th 10 times more than the 5th; the 3rd, 10 times more than the 4th; the 2nd, 10 times more than the 3rd and the 1st Choir of Angels are 10 times more than the 2nd. The calculation here is a bit puzzling. Asuming that as we speak there is a freeze on births so that we can count the number of angels. And assuming that since creation to date 30 billion people walked and are walking the surface of the earth. Then we have 30 billion, billion or simply 30 million trillion angels singing praises to God through all eternity. Now let us allow births to go on and for every person born there are additional 1 billion angels created in Heaven who will sing God’s praises. No doubt God does not approve of abortions. So back to the question: How many angels are there? Only God knows. How many can fit on a pin head? It will depend on how many want to get so small enough to fit on the pin head.

 

[Areopagite]

If you were on a forum where everyone was arguing about how many of fairies Zeus could fit onto Mt. Olympus, you would likely feel the same way an atheist feels in this thread.

I know you probably won’t believe this when I tell you, but I would very much interested reading a discussion about that. Truly, I tell you because if they were using reason, valid logic, I would start to wonder maybe there is something to this discussion. If anything, probably not much, of course. At least it would be a morbid fascination, watching psychos take such things quite seriously … especially if they were using logic throughout it. Wouldn’t that grab your attention?

And also, just as a side note, just to sap my credibility a little bit more, I personally believe fairies very likely exist. It seems like most Irish Catholics, especially, believed in fairies up until a few decades ago, and, interestingly, they also stopped believing in the Catholic faith. I’ve also talked to a couple people, some who were Catholic and some not, who claimed they experienced things that they thought were fairies.

I would also take interest in an atheist’s discussion about equivalently quirky things. A big one would probably be aliens and how aliens brought life to Earth. I enjoy hearing them talk about it and get really into it, and as long as they are being logical about it, you can’t really blame them … to much at least. And they might have some good points because aliens might actually exist, for example.

So, whatever religion and god(s) you believe or don’t believe, look carefully at an argument before you condemn it all together. Or at least know your reasons for doing it.

I stand by my previous posts (forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5379154&postcount=17) and defend the usefulness of the angel-pin question because, at least for me, it got me to think about angelelogy, cause and effect, and the nature of space a little deeper. It’s not just a simple “Whatever God wants” sort of dismissal (I don’t blame atheists for thinking we’re stupid if you just say something like that because it does make theology look arbitrary and boring) … of course, if you do say that, give your reasons … and prepare to defend yourself.:knight2:

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

I think the only thing you’ll find dancing on the head of a pin is bacteria.

…and Elvis.

http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/511/Elvis_on_a_pin_head.jpg

Can I say that was sooo cute! Love of Chrsit Nancy I believe in angels, my favorite is Uriel Gods Flame and my guardien angel:thumbsup: