How many (approximately) came in the ship of Nephi to the promised land?

  • Thread starter Thread starter ben_dy
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
B

ben_dy

Guest
I’m stumped. In trying to gain even an approximate figure of the number of people that were on the ship built by Nephi, I’ve counted the names of family members mentioned, their wives and children (except for Joseph and Jacob who I presume to have been too young to have had wives and children), the family of Ishmael and their wives and children, etc. The main problem, I suppose, is that I haven’t found a reference to the number of children.

Is anyone here familiar enough with Nephi, or with LDS scholars postulation, as to how many people actually came with Nephi on his ship to the promised land? Or is it just impossible to tell from the given account?
 
I don’t think we can tell for sure how many traveled together, perhaps 18 adults or more and up to 15 children but I don’t think we know how many sisters Nephi had. And we don’t know how many people they met up with once they arrived. We know they found the Mulekites later and they were more numerous than the Nephites but we don’t know how many other people they met/ mixed with after they’re arrival in the promised land.
 
40.png
Casen:
I don’t think we can tell for sure how many traveled together, perhaps 18 adults or more and up to 15 children but I don’t think we know how many sisters Nephi had. And we don’t know how many people they met up with once they arrived. We know they found the Mulekites later and they were more numerous than the Nephites but we don’t know how many other people they met/ mixed with after they’re arrival in the promised land.
Casen,

I rather thought I had done all the “ciphering” (as Jethro in The Beverly Hillbillies would say) with those named who were on the ship but when it comes to sisters of Nephi, children of all, etc., I just couldn’t come up with even an approximate number.

Hey - but now that you mention the Mulekites…

…were they here as a remnant of the Jaredites (I have some vague memory of reading that the Mulekite culture was similar to or influenced by the Jaredite) or did they arrive separately from the Nephites?

Even after my third thorough reading of the BoM (and two boxes now of index cards) I still don’t have all chronologies straight…

I think that when I post on the LDS section, however, I am going to take a cue from amgid and use a relatively obscure BoM name. (And see how long THAT lasts!)

aha
 
The Mulekites came over from Jerusalem about the same time as Lehi but didn’t hook up with the Nephites until much later (~480 years). Because the Mulekites didn’t bring with them any written records their language had changed considerably by that time and the Nephites couldn’t understand them.

Interestingly, according to the Book of Mormon, Mulek was a son of King Zedekiah and escaped the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon. You’ll recall from the Bible that Zedekiah was an unrighteous Jewish king and was killed along with all his family by King Nebuchadnezzar. Josephus tells the same story and adds that after Zedekiah’s sons were killed that Nebuchadnezzar had his eyes put out and then deported him to Babylon.

This would appear to be a discrepancy with the Book of Mormon account. The Bible says Zedekiah’s sons were killed but we have Mulek, son of King Zedekiah sailing to the Americas in the Book of Mormon.

The interesting part is that some scrolls found outside of Jerusalem in the ancient city of Lachish by archaeologists now known as the Lachish Letters tells the same story of King Zedekiah’s sons being killed but tells it slightly differently than the Biblical account. It adds to the story the account of a servant of King Zedekiah who hid the youngest child of the king from the Babylonian army, thus proving that it is very possible the King did indeed have a child who survived.

But it goes even further than that. Even non-LDS scholarship suggests that Zedekiah probably did indeed have a son named Mulek! If true, this would be an IMPOSSIBLE coincidence for Joseph Smith!

*The first clue of the existence and escape of Mulek, son of Zedekiah, can be found in 2 Kings 25:1-10, which reports that Nebuchadrezzar and “all his host” scattered “all the men” and “all [the king’s] army” and burnt “all the houses of Jerusalem,” and with “all the army” they destroyed the walls. In the midst of all this, however, 2 Kings 25:7 omits the word all when it reports only that “the sons” of Zedekiah were killed, leaving open the question whether all of his sons were slain.

Biblical scholars have recently had interesting things to say about a person named Malchiah. Jeremiah 38:6 speaks of a “dungeon of Malchiah the son of Hammelech . . . in the court of the prison.” But the Hebrew name here, MalkiYahu ben-hamMelek, should be translated “MalkiYahu, son of the king,” the Hebrew word melek meaning “king.”

Was this MalkiYahu a son of King Zedekiah? Several factors indicate that he was. For one thing, the title “son of the king” was used throughout the ancient Near East to refer to actual sons of kings who served as high officers of imperial administration [Rainey, 1975, pp. 427-432]. The same is certainly true of the Bible, in which kings’ sons ran prisons (see 1 Kings 22:26-27; Jeremiah 36:26; 38:6) or performed other official functions (see 2 Kings 15:5; 2 Chronicles 28:7). Moreover, in view of the fact that the name MalkiYahu has been found on two ostraca from Arad (in southern Judah), the late head of the Department of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University, Yohanan Aharoni, said that “Malkiyahu is a common name and was even borne by a contemporary son of king Zedekiah” [Aharoni, 1970, p. 22].

But was this MalkiYahu the same person as Mulek? Study of these names tells us he may very well be. In the case of Baruch, scribe of Jeremiah, for example, the long form of his name, BerekYahu, has been discovered on a seal impression by Nahman Avigad of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem [Avigad, 1979]. The full name has been shortened in Jeremiah’s record to Baruch.

In view of this shortening, as in many other biblical names, there is no reason why a short form such as Mulek might not be possible…

A prominent non-Mormon ancient Near Eastern specialist declared recently of the Book of Mormon’s naming “Mulek” as a son of Zedekiah, “If Joseph Smith came up with that one, he did pretty good!” He added that the vowels in the name could be accounted for as the Phoenician style of pronunciation. He found himself in general agreement that “MalkiYahu, son of the King” might very well be a son of King Zedekiah, and that the short-form of the name could indeed be Mulek. *
John Welch, Deseret Book Comp., Salt Lake City, UT, 1992, pp. 142-144

See also:

Rainey, Anson, “The Prince and the Pauper,” Ugarit-Forschungen 7 (1975): 427-432.

Aharoni, Yohanan. “Three Hebrew Ostraca from Arad,” Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research 197 (Feb. 1970):16-42.

Avigad, Nahman, “Jerahmeel and Baruch: King’s Son and Scribe,” Biblical Archeologist 42 (Spring 1979): 114-118.
 
seems a stretch to me. (Mulek that is)

There is an old LDS book called “god’s covenant race”. I believe it was written by James H. Andersen. My Grandfather had it in his LDS library and it asserted basically that the surviving child of the Jewish King was a daughter and that the prophet Jeremiah escaped with her to egypt along with the ark of the covenant and they eventually ended up in Ireland marrying her into the royal line there.Supposedly it shows us JS “royal” lineage. I don’t buy into it either but it’s an interesting read.
 
40.png
Casen:
Even non-LDS scholarship suggests that Zedekiah probably did indeed have a son named Mulek! If true, this would be an IMPOSSIBLE coincidence for Joseph Smith!

The first clue of the existence and escape of Mulek, son of Zedekiah, can be found in 2 Kings 25:1-10, which reports that Nebuchadrezzar and “all his host” scattered “all the men” and “all [the king’s] army” and burnt “all the houses of Jerusalem,” and with “all the army” they destroyed the walls. In the midst of all this, however, 2 Kings 25:7 omits the word all when it reports only that “the sons” of Zedekiah were killed, **leaving open the question ** whether all of his sons were slain.

Biblical scholars have recently had interesting things to say about a person named Malchiah. Jeremiah 38:6 speaks of a “dungeon of Malchiah the son of Hammelech . . . in the court of the prison.” But the Hebrew name here, MalkiYahu ben-hamMelek, should be translated “MalkiYahu, son of the king,” the Hebrew word melek meaning “king.”

But was this MalkiYahu the same person as Mulek? Study of these names tells us he may very well be. In the case of Baruch, scribe of Jeremiah, for example, the long form of his name, BerekYahu, has been discovered on a seal impression by Nahman Avigad of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem [Avigad, 1979]. The full name has been shortened in Jeremiah’s record to Baruch.

In view of this shortening, as in many other biblical names, there is no reason why a short form such as Mulek might not be possible

A prominent non-Mormon ancient Near Eastern specialist declared recently of the Book of Mormon’s naming “Mulek” as a son of Zedekiah, “If Joseph Smith came up with that one, he did pretty good!” He added that the vowels in the name could be accounted for as the Phoenician style of pronunciation. He found himself in general agreement that “MalkiYahu, son of the King” might very well be a son of King Zedekiah, and that the short-form of the name could indeed be Mulek.
John Welch, Deseret Book Comp., Salt Lake City, UT, 1992, pp. 142-144

How you can get an “impossible coincidence” out of “leaving open the question”, “may be”, “could”, “should”, and “possible” is beyond me. In fact, the more qualifiers you put on a given possibility, the more it decreases the chance of it being true.

I would say, based on what I read, it’s highly unlikely that Mulek was the son of King Zedekiah. You’ve already decided what’s true and are looking for facts that validate your belief and ignoring facts that do not validate your belief. Truth is largely irrelevant to that type of paradigm.
 
40.png
Tmaque:
I would say, based on what I read, it’s highly unlikely that Mulek was the son of King Zedekiah. You’ve already decided what’s true and are looking for facts that validate your belief and ignoring facts that do not validate your belief. Truth is largely irrelevant to that type of paradigm.
Yes, I’m sure I’m indeed biased… and didn’t intend to present a bulletproof case here but rather just wanted to mention a topic I find interesting and cite a few references for anyone that is interested in reading further.

I’m certainly no expert on the topic but I have read a bit about it, visited Lachish myself and discussed the topic with some notable scholars and find the evidence quite compelling.
 
40.png
majick275:
seems a stretch to me. (Mulek that is)

There is an old LDS book called “god’s covenant race”. I believe it was written by James H. Andersen. My Grandfather had it in his LDS library and it asserted basically that the surviving child of the Jewish King was a daughter and that the prophet Jeremiah escaped with her to egypt along with the ark of the covenant and they eventually ended up in Ireland marrying her into the royal line there.Supposedly it shows us JS “royal” lineage. I don’t buy into it either but it’s an interesting read.
Ive heard this story to some where else.

Ive also heard that JS royal blood comes from some where else but Im not about to divulge that one.
 
40.png
Casen:
I don’t think we can tell for sure how many traveled together, perhaps 18 adults or more and up to 15 children but I don’t think we know how many sisters Nephi had. And we don’t know how many people they met up with once they arrived. We know they found the Mulekites later and they were more numerous than the Nephites but we don’t know how many other people they met/ mixed with after they’re arrival in the promised land.
I came up with a total of twenty ‘adults’ (but I included Joseph and Jacob in that list and they would not have been, of course, adults - and I’ve not included any daughters of Lehi as I could find no mention of daughters):

Lehi (patriarch)
Sariah (Lehi’s wife)
Laman (son of Lehi)
Lemuel (son of Lehi)
Sam (son of Lehi)
Nephi (son of Lehi)
Joseph (son of Lehi)
Jacob (son of Lehi)
Zoram (freed servant of Laban)
Ishmael
Wife of Ishmael
Five Daughters of Ishmael
Two Sons of Ishmael
Two Wives of Sons of Ishmael

Did I leave anyone off that list? The number of children born during the 3-10 years that the daughters of Ishmael may have borne in the wilderness and there’s no indication of whether Ishmael’s sons had children before joining the party (nor afterwards, in the wilderness, unless I missed that). So my best guess could be as few as 5 to as many (if not more than) 70 children.

So now I’m going back in time to the Jaredites - there’s no way (from my reading) to determine the number that made the journey but the decriptions of the ‘submarine’ styled barges and the ‘light bulbs’ (16 or 18 - I’ll have to check again; 16 were given specifically for that purpose bur it seems as if I recall two more stones which were able to give off light? Tomorrow will be ‘fact checkinge’ day!
 
40.png
Zakuska:
Ive also heard that JS royal blood comes from some where else but Im not about to divulge that one.
Not a sequel to “The da Vinci Code”, I hope…
 
40.png
ben_dy:
I came up with a total of twenty ‘adults’ (but I included Joseph and Jacob in that list and they would not have been, of course, adults - and I’ve not included any daughters of Lehi as I could find no mention of daughters):
Ishmael (and probably his wife) died on the way before they set sail to the promised land, therefore they were not among the party that “boarded the ship”. As for the Jaredites, there is an indication (roughly) of how many came:

Ether 6:

13 And it came to pass that they went forth upon the face of the land, and began to till the earth.

14 And Jared had four sons; and they were called Jacom, and Gilgah, and Mahah, and Orihah.

15 And the brother of Jared also begat sons and daughters.

16 And the friends of Jared and his brother were in number about twenty and two souls; and they also begat sons and daughters before they came to the promised land; and therefore they began to be many.

17 And they were taught to walk humbly before the Lord; and they were also taught from on high.

18 And it came to pass that they began to spread upon the face of the land, and to multiply and to till the earth; and they did wax strong in the land.amgid
 
ben_d,

Wherefore, it came to pass that I, Nephi, did take
my family, and also Zoram and his family, and Sam,
mine elder brother and his family, and Jacob and
Joseph my younger brethren, and also my sisters, and
all those who would go with me. (2 Nephi 5:6)

We arnt told how many.
 
40.png
Zakuska:
Ive heard this story to some where else.

Ive also heard that JS royal blood comes from some where else but Im not about to divulge that one.
Yes, in another thread I posted the teachings of early LDS prophets that Jesus was plurally married and that JS and the LDS apostles and prophets were His direct decendants.

Paul
 
40.png
PaulDupre:
Yes, in another thread I posted the teachings of early LDS prophets that Jesus was plurally married and that JS and the LDS apostles and prophets were His direct decendants.

Paul
That all comes along with the Grail legends, and Charlamegne. (sp) Intresting stuff but at the moment pure speculation.
 
40.png
amgid:
Ishmael (and probably his wife) died on the way before they set sail to the promised land, therefore they were not among the party that “boarded the ship”. As for the Jaredites, there is an indication (roughly) of how many came:

Ether 6:

13 And it came to pass that they went forth upon the face of the land, and began to till the earth.

14 And Jared had four sons; and they were called Jacom, and Gilgah, and Mahah, and Orihah.

15 And the brother of Jared also begat sons and daughters.

16 And the friends of Jared and his brother were in number about twenty and two souls; and they also begat sons and daughters before they came to the promised land; and therefore they began to be many.

17 And they were taught to walk humbly before the Lord; and they were also taught from on high.

18 And it came to pass that they began to spread upon the face of the land, and to multiply and to till the earth; and they did wax strong in the land.amgid
See - that’s why there needs to be a “LDS Answers” board: I didn’t know that, as you point out, Ishmael didn’t make the journey and completely missed the 2 Nephi passage in which Zakuska cited “sisters” of Nephi.

What do you think about the Jaredite barges, by the way? Don’t they seem, in reading of their construction, much like submarines? The questions of light, fresh air, etc., are answered. I have in my head an imaginative youngster hearing Ether read and drawing a picture of something very much like a submarine as their mode of transportation!

I have yet to make a note in my BoM about the name of “the brother of Jared” but I saved the messages,

You know that I don’t believe that the BoM is inspired, and I admit that a first reading can make you crazy with with the “came to pass” repetitions, but I disagree about it being ‘boring’ - however you read it (and the more you read it) it’s a fascinating account.
 
40.png
Zakuska:
ben_d,

Wherefore, it came to pass that I, Nephi, did take
my family, and also Zoram and his family, and Sam,
mine elder brother and his family, and Jacob and
Joseph my younger brethren, and also my sisters, and
all those who would go with me. (2 Nephi 5:6)

We arnt told how many.
OK - now that I’ve gone back and (very quickly) taken a look again at 1 Nephi and 2 Nephi, I see where Lehi speaks of his “sons and daughters” in 2 Nephi 4:5 and Nephi speaking of “my sisters” in 2 Nephi in 5:6, but I don’t see any reference to daughters or sisters in 1 Nephi. While I know that Sariah isn’t spoken of past the point of her ‘afflictions’ on the journey, is it possible that she survived and the daughters were born after the landing, or is it speculated that she died from her afflictions, thus no further mention of her, and that she and Lehi had daughters whom were simply not mentioned in 1 Nephi (or have I missed mention of any daughters of Lehi in 1 Nephi)?

The reason that I posit that Lehi’s daughters may have been born after the landing is that, save for Joseph and Jacob, the ‘marriages’ with the sons of Lehi + Zoram work out well.
 
40.png
ben_dy:
What do you think about the Jaredite barges, by the way? Don’t they seem, in reading of their construction, much like submarines? The questions of light, fresh air, etc., are answered. I have in my head an imaginative youngster hearing Ether read and drawing a picture of something very much like a submarine as their mode of transportation!
I agree, they were built like submarines! It would have been a strange way to cross the sea. I don’t know whay the Lord would have wanted them to travel in this way, but I believe that the account is true.
You know that I don’t believe that the BoM is inspired, and I admit that a first reading can make you crazy with with the “came to pass” repetitions, but I disagree about it being ‘boring’ - however you read it (and the more you read it) it’s a fascinating account.
I can’t argue with that either. It is a fascinating account. What is even more fascinating is the theology that is expressed in it. If you read it often enough to get a deeper insight into it, you will find that even more fascinating.

amgid
 
40.png
Zakuska:
That all comes along with the Grail legends, and Charlamegne. (sp) Intresting stuff but at the moment pure speculation.
Is it “pure speculation” when an apostle declares it, then the prophet stands up and bears witness that what the apostle just said is correct?
 
Even if a Prophet bares witness there is still one who must weigh in on the subject. (1 John 5:7-8)

Joseph Smith blood line comes from the correct European family. However, the europeans claimed Charlameigns (sp) pedigrey was forged. Thats where the term charlaton comes from.

You can read about it more here:
whyprophets.com/prophets/arimthea.htm
.
 
American heritage dictionary:
  • char�la�tan �� (sh�rl-tn) KEY �
NOUN:
Code:
A person who makes elaborate, fraudulent, and often voluble claims to skill or knowledge; a quack or fraud.
ETYMOLOGY:
French, from Italian ciarlatano, probably alteration (influenced by ciarlare, to prattle), of cerretano inhabitant of Cerreto a city of Italy once famous for its quacks *

As a direct descendant of the DeVere bloodline I disagree with this. History tells us quite a lot of the Normans and Franks. JS claims about the “missing tribes” of Israel are still awaiting support.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top