How many beers until you're in Mortal?

[dostoyevskyfan]

Is there a set number of drinks you may have before it qualifies as mortal sin? Is there a universal standard set by the church or does it vary from person to person?

There are certain factors that affect intoxication:
genetic factors
food in the stomach
metabolism
body weight
tolerance
period of time inbetween drinks
etc

Thus, Aquinas’ definition of “drinking to the point where reason is impaired” is obviously going to be subjective. How are you supposed to know when you’re in mortal sin or not? Is drinking itself sinful or does it just enable sin or put you in an “occasion of sin” and therefore should be avoided on that basis? I have scottish heritage and I don’t really get hangovers. I’ll watch other people drink the same amount as I do (which can be quite substantial at times), and they act completely retarded whereas I am still in full possession of all my motor skills (although I never drive) and quite capable of having a reasonable conversation. I just don’t think it affects me in the same way it does other people. Thanks for the response.

 

[VetA]

Is there a set number of drinks you may have before it qualifies as mortal sin? Is there a universal standard set by the church or does it vary from person to person?

There are certain factors that affect intoxication:
genetic factors
food in the stomach
metabolism
body weight
tolerance
period of time inbetween drinks
etc

Thus, Aquinas’ definition of “drinking to the point where reason is impaired” is obviously going to be subjective. How are you supposed to know when you’re in mortal sin or not? Is drinking itself sinful or does it just enable sin or put you in an “occasion of sin” and therefore should be avoided on that basis? I have scottish heritage and I don’t really get hangovers. I’ll watch other people drink the same amount as I do (which can be quite substantial at times), and they act completely retarded whereas I am still in full possession of all my motor skills (although I never drive) and quite capable of having a reasonable conversation. I just don’t think it affects me in the same way it does other people. Thanks for the response.

im not old enough to, but i have wondered the same thing… dude watch your self and the languag you use (specifically the word retarted) the mods are strict about that

 

[JohnDamian]

There isn’t a set number one can have, if you have a strong constitution or have been exposed to alcohol from an earlier age then it is likely you will have a higher tolerance. That said; it would seem imprudent to drink more than four or five pints of six percent or so; because after that point it is likely that you will begin to behave slightly irrational.

For example; I have consumed quite a few; and am struggling to resist making a joke about Aquinas and irrationality and daily communion wine – so I should certainly not drink any more!

Practically speaking - know your own limits.

 

[DexUK]

A small thin person who has no tolerance for alcohol will become inebriated somewhat quicker than a large person with plenty of tolerance.

Since it is looked down upon to become so drunk that one is incapable, it should therefore be obvious that there is no set number of drinks of a particular type before one reaches that state whereby you might be said to have committed sin.

We’re all charged with conducting ourselves with modesty and prudence. That doesn’t mean being puritan about things and forswearing all forms of pleasure, but rather acting within our limits and not being irresponsible.

So yes, enjoy a drink or two. But not a drink or ten. Be aware that your own opinion of your capabilities while under the influence of alcohol will most likely be different from that of a disinterested (sober) observer, so don’t assume that you’re unaffected since you may well be and not be aware of it.

Also, although I’m not suggesting that you’re an alcoholic, if you’re regularly consuming large quantities of alcohol, try examining what it is in your life that means that this is your only source of fun or release. There are more things in this life to do than going out on a Friday or Saturday night and getting blotto.

 

[Milesius]

If your talking about a specific number there isn’t one, however as well as drunkenness it also would come under gluttony, I believe it would come under glutton before it reached drunkenness for some people.

Stick to whatever the legal limit is for driving to be safe I would say.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

If your talking about a specific number there isn’t one, however as well as drunkenness it also would come under gluttony, I believe it would come under glutton before it reached drunkenness for some people.

Stick to whatever the legal limit is for driving to be safe I would say.

If you’ve been drinking, don’t drive atall.

For 24 hours.

 

[Milesius]

If you’ve been drinking, don’t drive atall.

For 24 hours.

I agree with you but if the state says you can have 2 beers and still be fit to drive then that is a good example that 2 beers will not make you fall into the sin of drunkenness.

 

[diggerdomer]

Is there a set number of drinks you may have before it qualifies as mortal sin? Is there a universal standard set by the church or does it vary from person to person?

There are certain factors that affect intoxication:
genetic factors
food in the stomach
metabolism
body weight
tolerance
period of time inbetween drinks
etc

Thus, Aquinas’ definition of “drinking to the point where reason is impaired” is obviously going to be subjective. How are you supposed to know when you’re in mortal sin or not? Is drinking itself sinful or does it just enable sin or put you in an “occasion of sin” and therefore should be avoided on that basis? I have scottish heritage and I don’t really get hangovers. I’ll watch other people drink the same amount as I do (which can be quite substantial at times), and they act completely retarded whereas I am still in full possession of all my motor skills (although I never drive) and quite capable of having a reasonable conversation. I just don’t think it affects me in the same way it does other people. Thanks for the response.

If you drink so much that you can’t remember the difference between mortal and venial sins, that’s a problem.

Of course, simply having to ask this question may be indicative of a problem.

 

[ConstantineTG]

If you’ve been drinking, don’t drive atall.

For 24 hours.

That’s harsh. I drank two bottles of Guinness one night and drove home about 2.5 hours after the last bottle. There was a routine checkpoint where I admitted to the officer how much I had been drinking and how long ago. He asked me to step down and performed the breathalyzer test on me, 0.0. Unless a person drinks until they throw up and get really smashed and has a hangover, you can drive and not be under any effect of alcohol normally after 1.5-2 hours.

 

[Nan_S]

I have scottish heritage and I don’t really get hangovers. I’ll watch other people drink the same amount as I do (which can be quite substantial at times), and they act completely retarded whereas I am still in full possession of all my motor skills (although I never drive) and quite capable of having a reasonable conversation. I just don’t think it affects me in the same way it does other people. Thanks for the response.

The problem with alcohol is that you just THINK you’re unaffected. The first thing alcohol numbs is your judgment about how drunk you really are. If you drink the same amount of alcohol as your friends who are acting “retarded”, you are NOT in full possession of your motor skills and your conversation no longer makes complete sense.

If you have any doubts about this, try watching some of those cop shows with real-life videos of drunk driving stops. Nearly every one of the subjects who is stumbling around incoherently still thinks he is in full control of himself or herself.

I picked this off another website. It describes the whole thing humorously, but it does make the point. *

The Five Stages of Drunkenness and Sobering Up

Drinking

• Stage 1 - Clever: This is when you suddenly become an expert on every subject in the known universe. You know you know everything and you want to pass on your knowledge to anyone who will listen. At this stage you are always right. And, of course, the person you are talking to is very wrong. This makes for an interesting argument when both parties are CLEVER.
• Stage 2 - Attractive: This is when you realise that you are the most ATTRACTIVE person in the entire bar and that everyone fancies you. You can go up to a perfect stranger knowing that they fancy you and really want to talk to you. Bear in mind that you are still CLEVER, so you can talk to this person about any subject under the sun.
• Stage 3 - Rich: This is when you suddenly become the RICHEST person in the room. You can buy drinks for the entire bar because you have a bottomless wallet. You can also make bets at this stage, because of course you are still CLEVER so, naturally, you will always win. Anyway, it doesn’t matter how much you bet because you are RICH. You will also buy drinks for everyone that you fancy, in the knowledge that you are clearly the most ATTRACTIVE person present.
• Stage 4 - Invincible: You are now ready to pick fights with anyone and everyone, especially those with whom you have been betting or arguing. This is because you are now INVINCIBLE. At this point you can also go up to the partners of the people who you fancy and challenge them to a battle of wits or strength. You have no fear of losing this battle, because as well as being INVINCIBLE you are CLEVER, you’re RICH and you’re more ATTRACTIVE than them anyway.
• Stage 5 - Invisible: This is the final stage of drunkenness. At this point you can do anything, because you are now INVISIBLE. You can dance on a table to impress the people who you fancy because the rest of the people in the room cannot see you. You can also snog the face off them for the same reason. You are also INVISIBLE to the people who want to fight you. You can walk through the street singing at the top of your lungs because no one can see or hear you and because you’re still CLEVER you know all the words.

Sobering Up

• Stage 1 - Stupid: As you regain consciousness and begin to enjoy the headache, the churning stomach and the cold sweats you realise that you have lost not only several hours of your life but also the ability to concentrate on anything whatsoever. You are now STUPID and will remain so for a minimum of 12 hours.
• Stage 2 - Ugly: Never entirely happy with the effects of the bathroom mirror first thing you are horrified to discover that you have now become even UGLIER than you previously thought possible. Not only have you bloodshot eyes and a glorious collection of spots but you are shaking so much that your grandfather probably looks healthier.Unfortunately you are still too STUPID to know better than to try and shave whilst shaking.
• Stage 3 - Poor: Having crawled out of bed and got dressed you are about to shamble out the door when you discover that the money that was to last you the week is now missing from your wallet. Being STUPID, you have no idea what happened to it but the traces of curry on your clothes allow the possibility that you might have treated everyone to a takeaway at some point. Alternatively your pocket could have been picked or you might have given the taxi driver a fifty by mistake. Rationalising that you couldn’t possibly have been that STUPID and that you would remember being robbed, you come to believe that you were the only one who bought any food or drinks all night and start to loathe all your friends.
• Stage 4 - Fragile: As you are now STUPID, UGLY and POOR, your consequently FRAGILE self-esteem plummets. Your already FRAGILE physical condition ensures that you feel liable to shatter if anyone even speaks to you.
• Stage 5 - Conspicuous: This is the final stage of sobering up. Unfortunately, everyone can spot this CONSPICUOUS condition and its cause from a great distance. Even worse, they know that they can complete your misery by making fun of you, and that you are too STUPID to retaliate, too FRAGILE to hit them, too POOR to bribe them and too UGLY to hide.

 

[LilyM]

When you say ‘2 bottles’ of Guinness, what size are we talking? Beer comes in various sizes, and I must admit I’ve only ever seen Guiness in a glass or a can, never a bottle.

I wouldn’t rely on always being able to drink as much as you like, though - alcohol is a lot for anyone’s liver to absorb and regular heavy drinking will take its toll on the body in various ways if not the mind.

Me? If I’m well rested, have eaten beforehand and stick to spirits (which usually seem to affect me less) I can have a few and not be drunk. Other days, when I’m tired and drink on an empty stomach, one drink will be one too many.

 

[fragileswan]

I saw a priest on EWTN. He said that intentionally drinking to intoxication is a sin. Receiving Holy Communion while intoxicated, with the full intention of drinking more after Mass constitutes sacrilegious communion. But he also said that if a woman using birth control receives Holy Communion, with the full intention of using birth control at some point following Mass, she receives sacrilegious communion.

The priest said that a person taking sacrilegious communion bears the guilt for Christ’s murder, because Paul wrote in Corinthians that, “Those who partake of the feast of the sacrifice unworthily, bear the guilt for His death.” I can look it up if anyone wants to read it.

 

[Tradycja]

St. Thomas Aquinas addresses this issue in the Summa:

newadvent.org/summa/3150.htm

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

I apologize for using the vernacular in my initial post. This is actually a very serious question because it deals with the eternal state of your soul, which can be contingent on the consumption of one additional beer. I did not mean to use the word “retarded” in a pejorative sense, and upon further reflection, it was the wrong choice of words. “Intoxicated” or “drunkeness” would have been better.

The problem with the summa theologica is that it is medieval philosophy and we now live in the 21st century. We now know that “drunk” and “not drunk” is a false dichotomy; there are varying degrees of “intoxication” and “drunkeness”. St.Thomas does not specify or define what “drunkeness” is. Is it a state of mind? Is it the physical actions and words after a certain amount of alcohol?

My question is at what point does God say, “She has had five drinks. Her sixth drink will not only cost her 5 euro, it will cost her eternity in hell.”

Nan S makes a great case for moderate alcohol consumption to NEVER be mortal sin:

The problem with alcohol is that you just THINK you’re unaffected. The first thing alcohol numbs is your judgment about how drunk you really are.

**1. Nan’s objection: alcohol consumption can never be mortal if one does not intend to become drunk. **Since it is possible to become intoxicated and not have full knowledge that one is intoxicated, drinking can never be mortal sin if one does not initially intend to become intoxicated. Mortal sin requires full knowledge, full consent, and grave matter. The act of moderate drinking infringes on knowledge and consent.

I’m not looking for justification of sin, only clarity. I’m not talking about binge drinking or keg stands in college. I’m talking about responsible adult drinking that takes place at almost every mature social function and is a natural part of our society. Do I have to be worried about going to hell because I went to happy hour and got a little happy at the end of the week? If I have three or four glasses of chardonnay and pop on some Beethoven on a saturday night, can I receive the eucharist the next day?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Hi dostoyevskyfan,

If alcohol doesn’t make you do immoral things, it sounds like you can probably drink more than the average person without sinning. But consider a couple of other things:

1. scandal. Does the amount you drink encourage others around you to drink more?
2. temperance: Do you focus too much on the pleasure you get from food and drinking?
3. health: Do you drink too much for your own health?

 

[Spirithound]

Of course, simply having to ask this question may be indicative of a problem.

Yes, but is it scrupulosity or gluttony?

Nan S makes a great case for moderate alcohol consumption to NEVER be mortal sin:

**Alcohol consumption can never be mortal if one does not intend to become drunk. **Since it is possible to become intoxicated and not have full knowledge that one is intoxicated, drinking can never be mortal sin if one does not initially intend to become intoxicated. Mortal sin requires full knowledge, full consent, and grave matter. The act of moderate drinking infringes on knowledge and consent.

I think Nan makes a good point. I think, however there may be a point after a drink or two when one “discovers” that they enjoy the feeling of intoxication and then with their full consent choose to commit a mortal sin of gluttony.

…and pop on some Beethoven on a saturday night

You know, I think this might just be an indulgenced act

 

[Newbie2]

Not responding to any other post here, but I misread the title of this thread as "How many beers until you’re Mortal?

And I couldn’t come up with an answer. The more beers you have, the smarter and better looking you get, right?

 

[rwoehmke]

I have scottish heritage and I don’t really get hangovers. I’ll watch other people drink the same amount as I do (which can be quite substantial at times), and they act completely retarded whereas I am still in full possession of all my motor skills (although I never drive) and quite capable of having a reasonable conversation. I just don’t think it affects me in the same way it does other people. Thanks for the response.

It would be interesting to be tested for all this great performance capability that you find so superior to lessor beings. I thinking like most drinkers you have a somewhat overblown opinion as to your capacity.

 

[Nan_S]

My question is at what point does God say, “She has had five drinks. Her sixth drink will not only cost her 5 euro, it will cost her eternity in hell.”

Nan S makes a great case for moderate alcohol consumption to NEVER be mortal sin:

**1. Nan’s objection: alcohol consumption can never be mortal if one does not intend to become drunk. **Since it is possible to become intoxicated and not have full knowledge that one is intoxicated, drinking can never be mortal sin if one does not initially intend to become intoxicated. Mortal sin requires full knowledge, full consent, and grave matter. The act of moderate drinking infringes on knowledge and consent.

Oookaayy, I see that I was seriously misunderstood.

My point was that you’re denying reality to be sitting there saying “I can match my friends’ drinking until they are totally plastered and I’ll still be nearly sober.” If you’re a six-foot man weighing 200 pounds, eight glasses of Guinness in less than two hours will give you a blood alcohol content of about point 08, whether you want to admit it or not.

For clarity: Intentionally and repeatedly putting yourself in a situation where you know you’ll wind up getting drunk is a mortal sin. You can still count when you’re drunk, you can still tell time, and you know before you ever start drinking that eight bottles of Guinness will make you impaired, even though you don’t feel impaired.

You don’t get a free pass because you intentionally rendered yourself partially incoherent before you knowingly reached for the eighth bottle.

My friend, you’re fooling yourself, and you know it. Serious sin is STILL serious sin, even when people who know better refuse to admit it. What you’re doing is a little exercise in situational morality to justify something you inwardly know is wrong before you start.

You were sober when you brought home those two six-packs of Guinness. You were dehydrated but sober again when you collected all the empties and hauled them out to the trash. And you were sober when you went back to the store and bought two more six-packs of Guinness, knowing full well that you were more than likely going to drink most of them that night. Or you walked into the pub with plenty of cash knowing the same thing.

You know that intoxication to the point of impairment is a grave matter. You had full knowledge when you bought the Guinness or walked into that pub. And you had full consent when you started drinking, knowing that you would more than likely consume to excess. THAT’S when the mortal sin happened - when you started drinking.

 

[Moontown_Rabbit]

You can drink as many as you want, as long as you space them out at 1 hour intervals. At least this is what I was told by my college buddies. To be honest they were wrong about a lot of stuff.