How many Catholics think this way?

[Aydan]

Not this Catholic. Remembering the words of our holy pontiff we Catholics are to propose our faith to other people not impose it on them.

 

[Sepharad]

1ke is correct.

If a person’s conversion was insincere, that is their problem and there were consequences, which were well known at the time, for doing this. If they did not want to face the consequences, they should not have prenteded to convert and lie when they submitted themselves for baptism, confirmation, Holy Communion and confession.

In addition, the assertion that Jews and muslims, by and large, converted by coercion is not supportable by historical evidence. That is not to say there were not isolated cases; I suspect there may have been. However, it has been an ongoing teaching of the Church, first put in writing by Augustiner in the 5th century, that all conversions must be sincere and come from the heart and that forced conversions is never permitted. So as soon as you say people were forced to convert, we know you are not quoting reliable historical sources.

Finally, do not confuse the actions of the Spanish Royal family with the actions of the Church. For example the Spanish Royals hijacked the Spanish Inquisition and Rome condemned them for it.

My mother’s family descends from Spanish Jews who were forced to flee Spain if they did not convert. They chose to leave rather than convert.

Unfortunately, the country they chose to flee to, then began persecuting Jews with the “convert or leave” offer, so they had to leave again, or convert. They finally decided to convert so they would not have to keep fleeing…but they kept practicing Judaism in secret. What would you expect people to do, who were continually being told “convert or leave”? Eventually they got tired of fleeing, converted to keep the peace, but kept being Jewish anyway. If I did not feel as strongly about this as I do, I would have done the same thing.

500 years later, my mother’s family was still outwardly Catholic, but had kept some Jewish rituals and practices. My mother ended the charade after 500 years when she converted to Judaism in 1944 (although at the time she did not yet know her family’s history…that was for genealogists in the 1980s to find out.)

 

[b_justb]

IOW do many Catholics in the USA feel that it would be proper and right to suppress non-Catholic religions in order to have everyone convert to Catholicism?

I’m Catholic and I don’t think that way. I’m a huge proponent of freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and freedom of religion. All the Catholics I know do not think it would be proper to suppress non-Catholic religions in order to have people convert to Catholicism. So, just from my very tiny window into the Catholic world: no; there are not only not many, but none, that think this would be OK or the thing to do.

 

[RobHom]

IOW do many Catholics in the USA feel that it would be proper and right to suppress non-Catholic religions in order to have everyone convert to Catholicism?

Speaking for myself…as a Catholic and an American by birth, I do not believe that any religion has the right to suppress another religion. I believe most strongly in the sincere separation of Church and State.

I also believe that many American Catholics would agree.

 

[SedesDomi]

Would people here agree or disagree with the claim that the CC did previously hold the idea that citizens did not have the “freedom” to believe in a non-Catholic religion? From the Syllabus of Errors:

1. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true.—Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862; Damnatio “Multiplices inter,” June 10, 1851.

What this means is that the statement “Every man is free…consider true” is an error, according to the CC in the 1800s.

Of course, this statement 15 was never an infallible teaching; and Vatican 2 made religious freedom an explicit teaching of the CC. So the question then becomes: if you had lived in 1851, would you have agreed or disagreed with statement 15? (For background, see this.)

 

[jimcav]

I find this question rather odd, considering that it is protestants that seem to do the vast majority of evangelizing in this country. They seem far more intent and aggressive on taking Catholics away from their faith than do Catholics with protestants…

So maybe the question should be “how many protestants feel that in an “ideal” society their church should have the right to suppress non-protestant religons and impose their beliefs on others?”

And just for the record, in all my life I’ve never heard a Catholic say any such thing about suppressing anyones beliefs here. We do however pray that we will all one day come to be together again…

 

[RobHom]

And just for the record, in all my life I’ve never heard a Catholic say any such thing about suppressing anyones beliefs here. We do however pray that we will all one day come to be together again…

Bingo, and my thoughts exactly…

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

My mother’s family descends from Spanish Jews who were forced to flee Spain if they did not convert. They chose to leave rather than convert.

Unfortunately, the country they chose to flee to, then began persecuting Jews with the “convert or leave” offer, so they had to leave again, or convert. They finally decided to convert so they would not have to keep fleeing…but they kept practicing Judaism in secret. What would you expect people to do, who were continually being told “convert or leave”? Eventually they got tired of fleeing, converted to keep the peace, but kept being Jewish anyway. If I did not feel as strongly about this as I do, I would have done the same thing.

500 years later, my mother’s family was still outwardly Catholic, but had kept some Jewish rituals and practices. My mother ended the charade after 500 years when she converted to Judaism in 1944 (although at the time she did not yet know her family’s history…that was for genealogists in the 1980s to find out.)

It is sad indeed that your family or any family or person was forced to renounce their faith for another or leave the country of birth/choice. At the same time you can not hold the church responsible for what the secular leaders of those countries did. It is very well documented that Rome spoke out against what was being done in Spain. To address the OP now I believe that we need to uphold the Constitution of the USA that say our congress shall make no laws regarding the establishment of or the free practice of religion. so as much as I may disagree with a persons religion I have not the right to suppress it outside the four walls of my house.

 

[CB_Catholic]

On another forum, a few posters made comments that I found genuinely disturbing: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=250069

I would like to know how many Catholics truly feel this way? And I’m sure other non-Catholics in addition to myself here would also like to know.

To those Catholics who feel their religion should have the right to suppress non-Catholic religions by law and enforce their religion by law, they need to know that this country…the USA…was founded as a safe haven from that very thing. In fact even Catholics came here, to Maryland, to have a place where they could worship God as they saw fit.

How many Catholics feel that in an “ideal” society, their church should have the authority to suppress non-Catholic religions and impose their beliefs onto others?

I read the entire thread earlier today, and let me assure you that there is no way the majority of Catholics agree with this, at least in this country. I was appalled at the very idea that there are actually people in the Church that espouse these ideas, esp. given the history of this country.

You must remember that in that particular forum you are going to run into the more extremist views in the Church, although most of the posters do not espouse these views. These people are not representative of the Catholic Church, they are a small, and often dissident minority, and are no more representative than the “flaming liberals” they love to talk about. Most Catholics are very tolerant of other people’s religious beliefs, even if they do not subscribe to them. We absolutely believe in religious freedom, and that IS the official teaching of the Church. God should not be forced on anyone, we come to Him by our own free will. They would not want to live in a society where they were not free to practice their religion, why would they want to impose their religion on others?

I am 59 years old, was raised in Catholic schools pre-Vatican II, and never once was I taught anything like these people are espousing. Never. It is unCatholic and unAmerican.

 

[jmcrae]

How many Catholics feel that in an “ideal” society, their church should have the authority to suppress non-Catholic religions and impose their beliefs onto others?

I strongly believe in freedom of religion. I think ultimately, everyone is a convert, including those who were born into Catholic families - nobody is born with faith.

We make it our own through loving nurture and good teaching, but we need to be free to ask questions, and even to reject it - otherwise, we can never truly accept it in full freedom, with our hearts.

 

[1ke]

If they converted “of their own volition”, then why did they keep practicing Judaism in secret, in fear that the authorities would find out and bring them before the Spanish Inquisition?

Many converted for political or social gain, not because they believed in Christ. They were false conversions, done because they were expedient.

Some ‘choice’, to be baptized or be forced to leave the country!

Well, that was the choice given to them by the ruler of that country. Absolute monarchy being what it was it could have been worse.

If you feel such mistreatment was acceptable, then I will remember that the next time Christians complain about similar mistreatment in Muslim countries.

And, in which post did I say it was “acceptable?” I don’t think you will find one.

However, I don’t think “acceptable” and “unacceptable” are terms you can superimpose onto the year 1492. It was what it was.

In 1492, monarchs ruled absolutely. It was no more or less heinous than many other things that monarchs did. Well, actually, less heinous than many.

 

[allhers]

To the OP, what I saw on the other thread you referred us to was a few Catholics pre Vatican II and post Vatican II that were in disagreement over this Document of Vatican II:
Dignitatis Humanae
ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/v2relfre.htm

You can read it for yourself and you can see for yourself what that Document is actually saying instead of reading what some posters think it says.

 

[1ke]

Would people here agree or disagree with the claim that the CC did previously hold the idea that citizens did not have the “freedom” to believe in a non-Catholic religion?

Disagree. The Church does not hold this position, nor has it.

What this means is that the statement “Every man is free…consider true” is an error, according to the CC in the 1800s.

Um, no, it does not mean that at all.

One must know what the Syllabus is referring to in order to properly understand it. It is referring to a specific error promulgated by a specific priest in a specific writing called Defensa de la Autoridad de los Gobiernos contra las pretensiones de la Curia Romana by Francisco de Panla Gonzalez-Vigil

Of course, this statement 15 was never an infallible teaching; and Vatican 2 made religious freedom an explicit teaching of the CC. So the question then becomes: if you had lived in 1851, would you have agreed or disagreed with statement 15? (For background, see this.)

Well, first you would have to know what proposition 15 is talking about.

 

[Sepharad]

I read the entire thread earlier today, and let me assure you that there is no way the majority of Catholics agree with this, at least in this country. I was appalled at the very idea that there are actually people in the Church that espouse these ideas, esp. given the history of this country.

You must remember that in that particular forum you are going to run into the more extremist views in the Church, although most of the posters do not espouse these views. These people are not representative of the Catholic Church, they are a small, and often dissident minority, and are no more representative than the “flaming liberals” they love to talk about. Most Catholics are very tolerant of other people’s religious beliefs, even if they do not subscribe to them. We absolutely believe in religious freedom, and that IS the official teaching of the Church. God should not be forced on anyone, we come to Him by our own free will. They would not want to live in a society where they were not free to practice their religion, why would they want to impose their religion on others?

I am 59 years old, was raised in Catholic schools pre-Vatican II, and never once was I taught anything like these people are espousing. Never. It is unCatholic and unAmerican.

(I want to thank everyone for their responses; I truly do appreciate all of them, esp. those that reassure me that not all Catholics, or even most Catholics, hold the views I was referring to!)

I wanted to address something to CB…you said you grew up in Catholic schools in the USA pre-V2. I have used 1940s and 1950s pre-V2 Catholic school textbooks (to a limited degree) in my homeschooling (I use whatever books I can find that I feel express traditional morality)…and I have noticed in those books a very patriotic American fervor, which is one reason I use them.

When I shared this info with a friend offline who is a Traditionalist Catholic, she said that the church in the 1940s and 1950s (and its textbooks) was “infected with the heresy of Americanism”. Anyone know what she means by that?

What I have figured is that many Traditionalists adhere to what I call the medieval, “Deus vult” mentality, and see the softening of that mentality amongst Catholics in the USA as a “heresy”. Which means they probably see the medieval mindset as the “authentic” Catholic worldview.

 

[Ignatius]

On another forum, a few posters made comments that I found genuinely disturbing: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=250069

I would like to know how many Catholics truly feel this way? And I’m sure other non-Catholics in addition to myself here would also like to know.

To those Catholics who feel their religion should have the right to suppress non-Catholic religions by law and enforce their religion by law, they need to know that this country…the USA…was founded as a safe haven from that very thing. In fact even Catholics came here, to Maryland, to have a place where they could worship God as they saw fit.

How many Catholics feel that in an “ideal” society, their church should have the authority to suppress non-Catholic religions and impose their beliefs onto others?

??? the post you pointed to is a follows:

Someone on another thread wrote “I really don’t like arguing with all of these liberals and modernists” and it made me wonder about something. Ignorance and bigotry aside, where do such people get their misinformation? The reason I ask is such comments seem ever more canned. There clearly has been some regrettable programming going on.

More and more I can draw a strong analogy between some fundamentalist Protestants and some self-described “Traditional Catholics” and their myopic ignorance and bigotry. In his first book Karl Keating talked about the sources for many anti-Catholic fundamentalist beliefs. That makes me wonder what sources are used by the type of “Traditional Catholics” who routinely misuse words like “liberal” and “modernist?” It’s certainly not the Bible or official Church documents. They are clearly watching/reading something else.

I’m pretty sure this isn’t what you intended. What was the post number that you intended to point to?

 

[Sepharad]

??? the post you pointed to is a follows:

I’m pretty sure this isn’t what you intended. What was the post number that you intended to point to?

See post #18 in this thread for a concise explanation.

 

[jmcrae]

When I shared this info with a friend offline who is a Traditionalist Catholic, she said that the church in the 1940s and 1950s (and its textbooks) was “infected with the heresy of Americanism”. Anyone know what she means by that?

It is the belief that the United States of America was founded or established with the blessing of God, that the ideals of the Founding Fathers were in some way (name removed by moderator)ired by God or came from God in a way similar to how the Bible was inspired by God, and that God has some kind of special purpose or mandate for the United States of America that is superior to God’s blessing on other nations.

Basically, the mentality of “God on our side, Devil take the hindmost.”

 

[Sepharad]

It is the belief that the United States of America was founded or established with the blessing of God, that the ideals of the Founding Fathers were in some way (name removed by moderator)ired by God or came from God in a way similar to how the Bible was inspired by God, and that God has some kind of special purpose or mandate for the United States of America that is superior to God’s blessing on other nations.

Basically, the mentality of “God on our side, Devil take the hindmost.”

After I saw your response, I Googled it to see what I’d find. Among others, I found this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americanism_(heresy

Its interesting to say the least! I wonder if Americanism was actually a reaction of sorts to the prevailing view held up until then by many Americans, that Catholics did not make loyal Americans due to their allegiance to a foreign power (the Pope)? (I know that this sort of thing took place in the 1950s amongst American Jews, who became very uber-patriotic due to the Rosenberg scandal.)

 

[Malachi4U]

…How many Catholics feel that in an “ideal” society, their church should have the authority to suppress non-Catholic religions and impose their beliefs onto others?

This forced ideology is strictly forbidin by the Catholic Church herself!

Free will is only free if freely offered and freely taken. Faith is not faith if forced. Jesus never forced His will, He only offered people a choice to be freely taken or declined. (Of course there is a hidden price to be paid in that choice. Eternal damnation? Fear and trembling for the “Hope” of salvation? Sacrifice and discrimination to follow Him? Another thead perhaps?)

It does not really matter what individual Catholics believe because the Church has stated from 33AD when it was founded that forced religion is wrong! If individual Catholics believe otherwise then they need to study the Catechism and Scripture more and if they still don’t want to believe it then perhaps they should move on and join some reformed denomination instead and believe whatever they want .

 

[PaulDupre]

Most people do not know that the Spanish Inquisition was inaugurated by the Spanish monarchy, not by the Catholic Church.

Those who were punished by the Spanish Inquisition were punished by the Spanish monarchy, not by the Catholic Church.

The Spanish Inquisition was not representative of the other inquisitions.

Paul