How many Catholics think this way?

[Steven_John]

That is what muslims believe. Thank God the USA was founded on Protestant principles.

My understanding is the Quran says there is no compulsion in religion.

It says some Christians and Jews of that day were not in error.

For me

God gives me free will to choose, who am I to take the choice from others.

I like the pontiff quote from another poster, propose not impose.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Most people do not know that the Spanish Inquisition was inaugurated by the Spanish monarchy, not by the Catholic Church.

Those who were punished by the Spanish Inquisition were punished by the Spanish monarchy, not by the Catholic Church.

The Spanish Inquisition was not representative of the other inquisitions.

Paul

The Spanish Inquisition needs to be studied much more closely. Right now, it gets thrown around like a bumper sticker. it was a complex historical institution whose influence was exerted over hundreds of years. Not that anyone knows that.

Not that anyone reads or cares about history any more. We don’t want to be separated from our ignorance, from which we derive so much comfort.

How many people even know that the war for Spain lasted from AD 711 until AD 1492? I was watching some television documentary and they lamented that the Moors had been ejected in 1492 … I mean after all they were there for 700+ years. How cruel to eject them.

No discussion of the course of invasion of Spain (and of the Holy Land and of North Africa and into France and even into eastern Europe. No discussion. None.

The intellectual elites permit no defense of Western and Christian culture. None at all. They would prefer Western and Christian culture to be dissolved completely.

 

[Sepharad]

Most people do not know that the Spanish Inquisition was inaugurated by the Spanish monarchy, not by the Catholic Church.

Those who were punished by the Spanish Inquisition were punished by the Spanish monarchy, not by the Catholic Church.

The Spanish Inquisition was not representative of the other inquisitions.

Paul

I know this. If you read back to the posts where I mentioned it, you will see I referenced Catholics (as in Catholic monarchs), not the church itself.

But what baffles me is, Ferdinand and Isabella were known to be devout, committed Catholics. I would think that if the Pope had told them to stop what they were doing, they would have listened.

That leaves me to think one of two things: Either they were not that devout, or the Pope never tried to stop it.

 

[qui_est_ce]

On another forum, a few posters made comments that I found genuinely disturbing: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=250069

I would like to know how many Catholics truly feel this way? And I’m sure other non-Catholics in addition to myself here would also like to know.

This is why I avoid threads on Traditional Catholicism. Only radical SSPX and their ilk think this way. They are not following the Pope and are in open rebellion with him.

If you look hard enough, you will find bigoted ignorant people anywhere. I apologize for them. They don’t speak for the CC or most Catholics, but they have their rights of free speech. And like most rebellious people, they yell louder than obediant ones.

Sepharad, I don’t understand why you love the traddies when they are so obviously in error?

Traditional Latin Mass is the least of their agenda. As you’ve found, much is hate-mongering. And that is NOT the Teaching of the Catholic Church.

No wonder you think Catholics are so mean. These people are not representative of Catholics, nor do they follow Church Teaching.

You don’t have to be SSPX to go Traditional. Every diocese has at least one Church for TLM. We have institute-christ-king.org/stlouis2/ St. Francis de Sales Oratory in St. Louis. You wouldn’t believe how beautiful it is. It must cost a fortune to keep up this beautiful church.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I know this. If you read back to the posts where I mentioned it, you will see I referenced Catholics (as in Catholic monarchs), not the church itself.

But what baffles me is, Ferdinand and Isabella were known to be devout, committed Catholics. I would think that if the Pope had told them to stop what they were doing, they would have listened.

That leaves me to think one of two things: Either they were not that devout, or the Pope never tried to stop it.

Which one did you pick? Back to the topic, maybe they were radical SSPX’ers?

 

[peary]

On another forum, a few posters made comments that I found genuinely disturbing: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=250069

I would like to know how many Catholics truly feel this way? And I’m sure other non-Catholics in addition to myself here would also like to know.

To those Catholics who feel their religion should have the right to suppress non-Catholic religions by law and enforce their religion by law, they need to know that this country…the USA…was founded as a safe haven from that very thing. In fact even Catholics came here, to Maryland, to have a place where they could worship God as they saw fit.

How many Catholics feel that in an “ideal” society, their church should have the authority to suppress non-Catholic religions and impose their beliefs onto others?

**Jesus and the apostles approached coming to Him through listening and loving and forgiving. THAT you cannot enforce by law. Hence, to attempt to suppress non-Catholic and/or non-Christian religions by law is undesirable and unwarranted.

HOWEVER, if there is a cult or cults that cause a public danger, then these need to be outrooted and the full extent of the law as exists constitutionally to contain them.**

 

[Sepharad]

This is why I avoid threads on Traditional Catholicism. Only radical SSPX and their ilk think this way. They are not following the Pope and are in open rebellion with him.

If you look hard enough, you will find bigoted ignorant people anywhere. I apologize for them. They don’t speak for the CC or most Catholics, but they have their rights of free speech. And like most rebellious people, they yell louder than obediant ones.

Sepharad, I don’t understand why you love the traddies when they are so obviously in error?

Traditional Latin Mass is the least of their agenda. As you’ve found, much is hate-mongering. And that is NOT the Teaching of the Catholic Church.

No wonder you think Catholics are so mean. These people are not representative of Catholics, nor do they follow Church Teaching.

You don’t have to be SSPX to go Traditional. Every diocese has at least one Church for TLM. We have institute-christ-king.org/stlouis2/ St. Francis de Sales Oratory in St. Louis. You wouldn’t believe how beautiful it is. It must cost a fortune to keep up this beautiful church.

You need to remember something: I’m not a Roman Catholic, so to me, ALL of you are “in error” as far as religious beliefs go! I don’t really distinguish between Traditionalists, novus ordos, etc.

(BTW when I say “in error” I am only using your own terminology…although I may not believe in someone else’s religion, and recognize it is not for me, I do not refer to it that way.)

I admire the beauty of the pre-Vatican II church…its rituals, its music, its art, its Mass…but that does not mean I agree with, or have to agree with their politics.

I actually find the post-V2 Traditionalists to be much more extreme in their political/religious worldview than the Catholics I knew years ago who actually DID live through the pre-V2 times!

I think what they are doing is trying to mimic the way Catholicism was before V2 (but they go overboard!)

 

[mark_a]

How many Catholics feel that in an “ideal” society, their church should have the authority to suppress non-Catholic religions and impose their beliefs onto others?

There are tons of us. We are the control freaks. Its my way or the highway, if you can’t hack it get your jacket, don’t let the door hitcha where the good Lord splitcha.

But the head honcho says “no compulsion in religion”. And something about “reciprocity”.

 

[mercygate]

That is what muslims believe. Thank God the USA was founded on Protestant principles.

Well the “Protestant principles” this country was founded on specifically outlawed the practice of other religions. They couldn’t even tolerate each other. Roger Williams had to go find a place to live because the Massachsetts Bay Colony was going to deport him for his views on freedom of religion.

 

[qui_est_ce]

There are tons of us. We are the control freaks. Its my way or the highway, if you can’t hack it get your jacket, don’t let the door hitcha where the good Lord splitcha.

But the head honcho says “no compulsion in religion”. And something about “reciprocity”.

In fact we donate guns to our local parish for every male born to our families.

Along with the Knights Templar, we are seeking to build up the Catholic Army so the Pope can take over the whole world and run it like he used to, Inquisitions, Crusades, and all!

It’s a shame John F. Kennedy was so liberal and abandoned the program so he could get elected.

We were so close. {sigh}

 

[mercygate]

On another forum, a few posters made comments that I found genuinely disturbing: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=250069

I would like to know how many Catholics truly feel this way? And I’m sure other non-Catholics in addition to myself here would also like to know.

To those Catholics who feel their religion should have the right to suppress non-Catholic religions by law and enforce their religion by law, they need to know that this country…the USA…was founded as a safe haven from that very thing. In fact even Catholics came here, to Maryland, to have a place where they could worship God as they saw fit.

The US was a religious safe haven for the boys who got here first. Not for anybody else. Catholics were specifically uninvited.

How many Catholics feel that in an “ideal” society, their church should have the authority to suppress non-Catholic religions and impose their beliefs onto others?

In an ideal society, we believe everybody would be Catholic by their own unhindered, perfect, free will.

But there never will be an ideal society this side of the Second Coming, so let’s settle for live and let live. Still, I want a society grounded in a Judaeo-Christian moral code. Not crazy about Sharia.

 

[mercygate]

(I want to thank everyone for their responses; I truly do appreciate all of them, esp. those that reassure me that not all Catholics, or even most Catholics, hold the views I was referring to!)

I wanted to address something to CB…you said you grew up in Catholic schools in the USA pre-V2. I have used 1940s and 1950s pre-V2 Catholic school textbooks (to a limited degree) in my homeschooling (I use whatever books I can find that I feel express traditional morality)…and I have noticed in those books a very patriotic American fervor, which is one reason I use them.

When I shared this info with a friend offline who is a Traditionalist Catholic, she said that the church in the 1940s and 1950s (and its textbooks) was “infected with the heresy of Americanism”. Anyone know what she means by that?

What I have figured is that many Traditionalists adhere to what I call the medieval, “Deus vult” mentality, and see the softening of that mentality amongst Catholics in the USA as a “heresy”. Which means they probably see the medieval mindset as the “authentic” Catholic worldview.

Those textbooks would have been ultra patriotic because people still believed that Catholics owed their first national allegiance to “the Pope of Rome.”

The specific heresy of Americanism is a subset of modernism that espoused total freedom of the press, individualism, “liberalism”, and separation of church and state as universal principles.

So maybe your traditionalist friends are right. Catholics were VERY busy trying to prove they were good Americans. The Knights of Columbus, founded in the 1880s, specifically pushed patriotism, partly as a means of opening doors that had been closed to Catholics in a grotesquely anti-Catholic Protestant America.

You remember the Know Nothings, don’t you?

 

[violetandgandal]

And today we know that this behavior was not right. So, given that example, would you want to return the favor by having Catholicism the state religion in the U.S. and exclude the rights of protestants to practice their faith? I think that’s the point of the thread.

Peace…

MW

Absolutely not. I would not want any state-sponsored religion.

 

[Steven_John]

The US was a religious safe haven for the boys who got here first. Not for anybody else. Catholics were specifically uninvited.

In an ideal society, we believe everybody would be Catholic by their own unhindered, perfect, free will.

But there never will be an ideal society this side of the Second Coming, so let’s settle for live and let live. Still, I want a society grounded in a Judaeo-Christian moral code. Not crazy about Sharia.

From what i see and learn of.
Sharia law is man made, exploits God for mans desires in many areas.

I would like to see religion and state as one but it is of great danger given we are sinners and those in perceived power often lose humility.

State laws seem to offer freedom of will better than one eyed religions.

May we all seek Gods laws by example and offering choice
after all God gives me choice for choice purify s love.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

On another forum, a few posters made comments that I found genuinely disturbing: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=250069

I would like to know how many Catholics truly feel this way? And I’m sure other non-Catholics in addition to myself here would also like to know.

To those Catholics who feel their religion should have the right to suppress non-Catholic religions by law and enforce their religion by law, they need to know that this country…the USA…was founded as a safe haven from that very thing. In fact even Catholics came here, to Maryland, to have a place where they could worship God as they saw fit.

How many Catholics feel that in an “ideal” society, their church should have the authority to suppress non-Catholic religions and impose their beliefs onto others?

THis is the first time I have ever heard of this rhetoric; Are you saying if Catholics should have the right to suppress non-catholic religions by law? and enforce their religion by law? This sounds like a contradiction statement? The Catholic church never has and never will excercise her authority to suppress non-catholic religions, nor impose their beliefs onto others, The Catholic church would call this Heresy! and penalty of excommunication from the body of Jesus Christ.

It is granted historically, The Catholic church has been tainted by bad men who where of the Catholic church, or KIngs, and Queens, governments dictated their own laws to govern their people unjustly as Catholics. Truth be told here, that it was not the Church herself who acted unjustly, but those in authority who claimed to be of the Catholic faith, or acted unjustly in the name of the Catholic church. The Catholic church has always defended the helpless, and the poor against these tyrants. That is why history records hell coming against her, but never prevailed.

Speaking as a Catholic; The way I see it, The Catholic church is the one body of believers that have always stood for life, dignity of life and death. It is not the Catholic church’s duty to force her belief’s on anyone, only live by example and proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ to the world. What is Ironic here, is how it is done. The non-catholics in general have made laws against the hearing of the Catholic church’s teachings of peace and love. Some have made laws as a penalty of death if they were to convert to christianity.

My point is; there should be no law to dictate or force one to believe in one’s religion. God draws all his children to himself; the problem is governments and laws restrict the human man by punishment of death to follow God’s calling. If these dictators would lift their death threats and allow freedom of religion (without any penalties of torture or death), I believe peace and love, which is the christian way, would help these lost souls back to Jesus. The Catholic church is not one to enforce or dictate ones freedom of religion. Her calling is to proclaim the good news of Jesus, and baptize those chosen by God to enter his kingdom, which are all who can hear is voice through his body the Catholic church. The catholic church teaches that those who have no freedom and are restricted from hearing the good news by laws, dictators, religious fanatics, fall into the desire of baptism, and the mercy of God. The Catholic church has survived these 2 millenium, leaving a trail of historic blood for this liberty and freedom, not to do the contrary of forcing laws on non-catholics.

Historically as a matter of fact; The Catholic church was here way before the United States became a country, in fact before the pilgrims landed on plymouth rock.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

NO religion, NO government, NO dictator should enforce a law restricting freedom of religion by penalty of torture and death. IF these laws that restrict freedom of religion were lifted, I think terroists would be out of a job. And good people of the world would find peace in Jesus, and those acting in sin, would find reconciliation with God.

Peace be with you

 

[ALLGIRLS]

IOW do many Catholics in the USA feel that it would be proper and right to suppress non-Catholic religions in order to have everyone convert to Catholicism?

I don’t know of anyone who believes that, and I hang out w/ some very orthodox (read: conservative and traditional) Catholics. What happens is Catholics believe things like abortion and “gay marriage” should be illegal, and then we get accused of trying to “force our religion” on the populace. I don’t know of any Catholic who wants to outlaw nonCatholic religions and force everyone to be Catholic. That’s just crazy. Like someone else mentioned, we believe that in a perfect world, everyone would want to be Catholic, there’s a big difference (we obviously will never be in a perfect world until Christ returns).

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[Genesis315]

According to Catholic doctrine, if a false religion’s activities are detrimental to the common good, they can and should be suppressed. This is a prudential judgement heavily dependent on the circumstances. It was the judgement of the Second Vatican Council that given the make-up of modern society, a broad freedom should be granted (however, it is Catholic doctrine that no one can be forced to embrace the faith).

On the other hand, for example if a nation were completely Catholic, it would not be unreasonable for the state to not permit foreign non-Catholic missionaries from coming in and causing dissensions detrimental to the common good.

Of course, in the USA harmful religions are often suppressed–the FLDS is a good recent example that has been in the news. Also, certain native American religions that use hallucinigenic drugs have been suppressed.

 

[Genesis315]

From the CCC:

[2108](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2108.htm’) The right to religious liberty is neither a moral license to adhere to error, nor a supposed right to error,37 but rather a natural right of the human person to civil liberty, i.e., immunity, within just limits, from external constraint in religious matters by political authorities. This natural right ought to be acknowledged in the juridical order of society in such a way that it constitutes a civil right.38
[2109](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2109.htm’) The right to religious liberty can of itself be neither unlimited nor limited only by a “public order” conceived in a positivist or naturalist manner.39 The “due limits” which are inherent in it must be determined for each social situation by political prudence, according to the requirements of the common good, and ratified by the civil authority in accordance with "legal principles which are in conformity with the objective moral order."40

37 Cf. Leo XIII, Libertas praestantissimum 18; Pius XII AAS 1953,799.
38 Cf. DH 2.
39 Cf. Pius VI, Quod aliquantum (1791) 10; Pius IX, Quanta cura 3.
40 DH 7 § 3.

 

[Genesis315]

I wrote this for another forum–it explains and traces the development of Catholic doctrine on this topic up to the present (including teaching of the present Holy Father).

Part I:
christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=40437782&postcount=10

Part II:
christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=40437782&postcount=11