How many Catholics think this way?

[Sepharad]

Many Jews claimed to convert for political or business advantages, without really being faithful… kind of pathetic and shallow, isn’t it. It was these who were insincere and made no real change to Catholicism, only in public image.

I love the Jewish people, our acnestors in faith. However, these people were not true to either their Jewish faith which they professed in private, nor to the Catholic faith they professed in public, for public gain. These people could obviously not be trusted, for starters…

I realize the CC wants to whitewash the whole thing, but my mother’s family descends from Spanish Jews who WERE compelled to convert or be expelled. Very few did it for the reasons you mentioned, and that leaves one to wonder anyway…those who did do it to improve their financial or economic lot…why did they feel they HAD to do it for those reasons? Were the Spanish Catholics treating Jews differently from Catholics, economically?

They chose to leave Spain…but not until all their personal wealth was taken from them by the Spanish monarchs. Then, when they got to Italy, and the Spanish Crown caught up with them there (because Spain ruled that part of Italy eventually), they were AGAIN told, “convert or else”. They finally chose to convert so they would not have to flee yet again, but they kept practicing their true faith in secret. I don’t blame them one bit for continuing to be Jewish in secret.

One other thing: the Spanish, unlike other Europeans, actually held a racist attitude toward Jews. They differentiated between those raised Catholic and those who converted from among the Jews. They called the born Catholics, “Old Christians” and the Jewish converts, “New Christians”. They sought to prevent intermarriage between the two groups because they felt “Jewish blood” was inferior, even after it has been washed in the baptismal font.

This attitude in a way, paved the way for the later Nazi attitude that being Jewish was a racial thing rather than ethnic/religious.

 

[Sepharad]

And if you read the Bible you would also know that Jews were killing Christians (as were the Romans) because they saw the early Christians as a threat. But those who did were a select few as were the Jews in 15th century Spain who faked a religion to move higher up in politics. The Church has never and will never condemn Jews nor do I think the Jewish religion as a whole has ever condemned Christianity. And could you please be more specific about the times the Church supposedly did horrible things to Jews that we are still supposedly living down?

I suggest you read: “THE ANGUISH OF THE JEWS” by Father Edward Flannery (c 1964, Paulist Press). He goes into great detail about the many, many antisemitic incidents and programs carried out by the CC.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Antisemetism is terrible–so is anti-Christianism, etc.

It is very hard to ‘look back’ at events which happened in the past and realize that not only were the times very different from our own, but that those events were happening in the ‘now’. Hindsight, as my dear mother says, is always 20/20. We have the luxury of all sorts of documentation (some after the fact, tis true) so that we can say, “But see! There was no reason for X to worry about Y”. We know. But X. . .did not. And so X cannot be judged as though X was in possession of all the facts we know, or as though X lived in 2008, preferably in New York City or San Francisco, with some dozens, if not hundreds of years worth of ‘tolerance’, hundreds of thousands of ‘laws’, mass communication, etc.

Poor consolation to those who suffered. . .at any time in history where for whatever reason ‘justice’ was not done. For whatever ills were done to the innocent, I pray may God’s justice and mercy be done. For any ills in which, as a Catholic, I might have had any part, I pray that those I have wronged, especially God, forgive me, as I forgive any who have wronged me. And may God bring us all to Heaven to be one with Him in everlasting joy. May He bless you and keep you. May His face shine upon you and be gracious to you, and may He give you peace.

 

[Kaninchen]

If religious teaching to children is worse than child abuse, if religion is worse than rape, if religion poisons EVERYTHING, then a practioner of religion should be disenfranchised just as a child abuser, a rapist, or a general poisoner of everything is disenfranchised.

Describing the ways in which public atheists are as proficient in the “those who don’t believe as I do are very, very naughty” game as religious people does not provide evidence of atheist demands that Christians should be denied the right to participate in the democratic process.

 

[MDK]

I realize the CC wants to whitewash the whole thing, but my mother’s family descends from Spanish Jews who WERE compelled to convert or be expelled. Very few did it for the reasons you mentioned, and that leaves one to wonder anyway…those who did do it to improve their financial or economic lot…why did they feel they HAD to do it for those reasons? Were the Spanish Catholics treating Jews differently from Catholics, economically?

They chose to leave Spain…but not until all their personal wealth was taken from them by the Spanish monarchs. Then, when they got to Italy, and the Spanish Crown caught up with them there (because Spain ruled that part of Italy eventually), they were AGAIN told, “convert or else”. They finally chose to convert so they would not have to flee yet again, but they kept practicing their true faith in secret. I don’t blame them one bit for continuing to be Jewish in secret.

One other thing: the Spanish, unlike other Europeans, actually held a racist attitude toward Jews. They differentiated between those raised Catholic and those who converted from among the Jews. They called the born Catholics, “Old Christians” and the Jewish converts, “New Christians”. They sought to prevent intermarriage between the two groups because they felt “Jewish blood” was inferior, even after it has been washed in the baptismal font.

This attitude in a way, paved the way for the later Nazi attitude that being Jewish was a racial thing rather than ethnic/religious.

I don’t see any official effort to whitewash. Joh Paul II brought this up, and apologized for past sins of Christians toward Jews. I also don’t see that you really have laid the causes where they truly belonged. Therefore, what you realize, you seem to do for your own purposes, rather than for the greater good. I don’t have much time right now, but one thing (other than your apparent disdain for things Catholic)… is you seem to confuse individual, community, or states with the official Catholic Church teachings on faith and morals. Are you trying to link the official Catholic Church teachings to prejudice or that it paved the way for Hitler? Let’s be clear and open here, please. If so, do you think that is in keeping with God’s eighth commandment not to bear false witness? If you’re honest here, which may be difficult given your many generations-old anger, I think you’ll admit that you’re trying to blame or discredit the Catholic Church, rather than discuss individual or state behaviors. If so, you seek to discredit the Catholic Church unjustly. The Inquisition doesn’t discredit the Church, but includes discussion about poor behaviors. For instance, did the Catholic Church teachings include that Jews were inferior? Kind of odd, considering that the Son of God came as a Jewish man, and our first pope was Jewish by birth.

 

[MDK]

It’s easy for one to create a straw man argument by inserting the word “only” and then knock it down. Spain was closely linked with a Christian identity, so more than just a few Jews did this. More importantly, the discussion was simply regarding those who did it of their own free will… not those who were forced.

I would face death, rather than to denounce my Catholic faith. That’s why I don’t want to put myself in the situation of going to Saudi Arabia again. I was quiet and polite last time, listening to their discussions to me about Islam. I didn’t say a word, because I represented a comany. I would not be quiet next time. It’s irresponsible for me to put myself in those situations. If it’s by God’s hand, then that’s the way it will go. My relationship with my heavenly family comes before my earthly family.

 

[Sepharad]

I don’t see any official effort to whitewash. Joh Paul II brought this up, and apologized for past sins of Christians toward Jews. I also don’t see that you really have laid the causes where they truly belonged. Therefore, what you realize, you seem to do for your own purposes, rather than for the greater good. I don’t have much time right now, but one thing (other than your apparent disdain for things Catholic)… is you seem to confuse individual, community, or states with the official Catholic Church teachings on faith and morals. Are you trying to link the official Catholic Church teachings to prejudice or that it paved the way for Hitler? Let’s be clear and open here, please. If so, do you think that is in keeping with God’s eighth commandment not to bear false witness? If you’re honest here, which may be difficult given your many generations-old anger, I think you’ll admit that you’re trying to blame or discredit the Catholic Church, rather than discuss individual or state behaviors. If so, you seek to discredit the Catholic Church unjustly. The Inquisition doesn’t discredit the Church, but includes discussion about poor behaviors. For instance, did the Catholic Church teachings include that Jews were inferior? Kind of odd, considering that the Son of God came as a Jewish man, and our first pope was Jewish by birth.

I do not “disdain things Catholic”…if you knew my full background, you’d know that for years I have defended the cause of those members of the Catholic half of my family who felt abandoned by Vatican II (the Mass, etc). And I do speak out in defense of the church when I feel she is unfairly maligned.

My only real problem is with what was done to some of my ancestors by those professing to be truly loyal sons of your church (namely, Ferdinand and Isabella).

Many historians have pointed out that Hitler got some of his ideas from things the church/Catholic monarchs had done to Jews also, or had authorized to be done…such as requiring medieval Jews in certain countries to wear round yellow badges to distinguish them from Christians. That is where Hitler got his idea for making Jews wear yellow stars on their clothing to distinguish them from “Aryans”. If you want to see evidence of that, just ask.

 

[MDK]

I do not “disdain things Catholic”…if you knew my full background, you’d know that for years I have defended the cause of those members of the Catholic half of my family who felt abandoned by Vatican II (the Mass, etc). And I do speak out in defense of the church when I feel she is unfairly maligned.

My only real problem is with what was done to some of my ancestors by those professing to be truly loyal sons of your church (namely, Ferdinand and Isabella).

Many historians have pointed out that Hitler got some of his ideas from things the church/Catholic monarchs had done to Jews also, or had authorized to be done…such as requiring medieval Jews in certain countries to wear round yellow badges to distinguish them from Christians. That is where Hitler got his idea for making Jews wear yellow stars on their clothing to distinguish them from “Aryans”. If you want to see evidence of that, just ask.

Knowing your background may be interesting, but going on what you insinuate and say on this thread, I’d say you are not a fair defender of the Catholic Church for certain. You also clearly have an (or more than one) axe to grind. You came here asking one question, but were really bringing your axe to grind. You insinuate that your family has over the course of time and including recently continued to be a victim of unfair Catholicism. Is this what you’re tring to say? If so, I disagree. What you’ve indicated is that people have behaved badly. What’s new? Are you somehow surprised by this? BTW, there’s nothing wrong with Vatican II. If I said I was Jewish and said that I followed the teachings, and then behaved badly toward your, would you also say you have been victimized by the Jewish faith? Would you say that Jewish faith is wrong because of the behavior of one who claimed to follow Jewish teaching. So, once again, you really need to separate individual behavior from Church teaching. Many also confuse anti-Judaism with anti-Semitism and inflate the anti-Semitism that exists. O believe some have also tried to justify their anti-Semitic leanings by focusing on what is really anti-Judaic (after the Messiah has come). I don’t even think in terms of white-wash or prejudice. However, please be careful to be fair to each entity here. You seem to be using an awefully broad brush to paint with here.

 

[Lapell]

I realize the CC wants to whitewash the whole thing, but my mother’s family descends from Spanish Jews who WERE compelled to convert or be expelled. Very few did it for the reasons you mentioned, and that leaves one to wonder anyway…those who did do it to improve their financial or economic lot…why did they feel they HAD to do it for those reasons? Were the Spanish Catholics treating Jews differently from Catholics, economically?

They chose to leave Spain…but not until all their personal wealth was taken from them by the Spanish monarchs. Then, when they got to Italy, and the Spanish Crown caught up with them there (because Spain ruled that part of Italy eventually), they were AGAIN told, “convert or else”. They finally chose to convert so they would not have to flee yet again, but they kept practicing their true faith in secret. I don’t blame them one bit for continuing to be Jewish in secret.

One other thing: the Spanish, unlike other Europeans, actually held a racist attitude toward Jews. They differentiated between those raised Catholic and those who converted from among the Jews. They called the born Catholics, “Old Christians” and the Jewish converts, “New Christians”. They sought to prevent intermarriage between the two groups because they felt “Jewish blood” was inferior, even after it has been washed in the baptismal font.

This attitude in a way, paved the way for the later Nazi attitude that being Jewish was a racial thing rather than ethnic/religious.

Why do you say that the CC has tried to whitewash this? And you keep stating that those actions were done by the CC. By Catholics, I would accept that. But it’s a different thing!

 

[Lapell]

Have you ever heard the word Anti-Semitism used against people other than the Jewish people? I haven’t…

 

[qui_est_ce]

I do not “disdain things Catholic”…maligned.

Actually many of the threads you have started, especially this one seem to be a setup to air your anti-Catholic views.

The post you refer to in your OP is taken out of context. It was a quote from some radical SSPX, which is currently is SCHISM from the Catholic Church, and therfore NOT in communion with the Teachings of the Holy See. There were many, many rebuttals, yet you pick it out and started a new thread.

Below is a post *from10 things things I’ve “learned” at CAF *a thread that was closed shortly after you posted.

–

But some of you blew it. **You blew it bigtime. **

Yet elsewhere you bemoan the fact that some Catholics are trying to convert you.

So He sent me here to see just how mean some Catholics can be. ** .
He did it to save me from making a mistake that would have plunged me into the greatest sin a Jew can ever commit: idolatry**.

Sigh read any good Boettner lately?

Many historians have pointed out that Hitler got some of his ideas from things the church/Catholic monarchs had done to Jews also, or had authorized to be done…such as requiring medieval Jews in certain countries to wear round yellow badges to distinguish them from Christians. That is where Hitler got his idea for making Jews wear yellow stars on their clothing to distinguish them from “Aryans”. If you want to see evidence of that, just ask.

Actually, Hitler used Martin Luther.

biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm

.
I suppose one major problem I’m finding I have with Christianity (esp. the Catholic form of it), is that when something you believe does not fit the Torah or Jewish Law, you change the rules as they apply to Jesus or his mother.

Yes, we Catholics ADDED, to the Bible, especially the OT.

This from a thread I started so I could learn more about Jewish practices at the time of Jesus.

Re: Mary and Jewish Customs in circa 4 BC

These are all things that can only be taken on faith by Christians, because there is no historical evidence that these things happened, apart from the NT (which to me, reads like a **1st century infomercial **for a new, struggling religion.)

I guess I don’t see the humor non Catholic coming to a website and making fun of Catholic Tradition. Kind of like calling somebody’s mother a "w***e

forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3769332

You really need to get over what happened to your ancesters in the Spanish Inquisition the way I got over how Hitler treated my mother’s family. Otherwise you will be doomed to repay violence for violence, as is happening in the Middle East.

 

[Sepharad]

Christine, If I need to “get over” what happened to my ancestors in the Spanish Inquisition, then maybe Catholics need to “get over” the persecutions that have happened to them too.

But I doubt you’d say that, would you? I never would tell ANYONE to “get over” horrible sufferings that happened to them or to their people, why do you? Since when is horrendous suffering something people should “just get over”?

Should those of us who are pro-life activists just “get over” 1.6 million babies being murdered each year?

Or do you only tell Jews of Spanish descent to “just get over” what Catholic monarchs did to their ancestors, since discussing it makes your co-religionists of that time look poorly?

 

[Lapell]

Or do you only tell Jews of Spanish descent to “just get over” what Catholic monarchs did to their ancestors, since discussing it makes your co-religionists of that time look poorly?

“Christine”, did you notice Sepharad said “Catholic monarchs”, not all Catholics? And not the authorities in the Vatican?
I’m afraid that what Sepharad told about the Spanish Inquisition actually is the truth, like it or not. The Jewish people experienced the same thing in various places and in various times, repeatedly.
Some may have believed the CC was behind it, but even if the pope were behind it, it would be as an individual, not as a follower of Jesus called the Christ!! So it wouldn’t be the CC even then! Hard to believe, but still very true!
But I don’t think the pope was behind it then…

 

[qui_est_ce]

Christine, If I need to “get over” what happened to my ancestors in the Spanish Inquisition, then maybe Catholics need to “get over” the persecutions that have happened to them too.

Yes they should.
"Qui:

Catholics get over your persecution complex

But I doubt you’d say that, would you? I never would tell ANYONE to “get over” horrible sufferings that happened to them or to their people, why do you? Since when is horrendous suffering something people should “just get over”?

My father was murdered in a home invasion. My mother was beaten and left for dead. I’ve gotten over it.

The Nazi’s destroyed my mother’s home and home town. Put my uncle, a Catholic priest in prison camp.

I manage to visit Germany a lot any way. (To visit my aunt who lost her American citizenship because she was married to a Nazi)

Should those of us who are pro-life activists just “get over” 1.6 million babies being murdered each year?

How is fighting a present injustice the same as dredging up past injustices to fuel discord?

Or do you only tell Jews of Spanish descent to “just get over” what Catholic monarchs did to their ancestors,

You are still suffering over the Spanish Inquisition??

How far back do you need to go? Joshua and the slaughter of the Canaanites at Jericho?

Using past injustices as ammunition to perpetuate present prejudices (those mean idolatrous Catholics) does nothing to promote understanding, and the harmony that stems from understanding.

No one ever gets over horrible things that happen in their lives. You will never get over your mother’s death. I will never get over my father’s death. But I did get through it and have moved on.

I view my heritage as just that - it’s removed from my personal experience, so I can get over that. I don’t need to bring it up constantly to demonize the Germans. In fact, this is a case where I blame the institution, and not the people.

since discussing it makes your co-religionists of that time look poorly?

There is a huge difference between knowing history and using history to sling mud. All of us have mud. Wallowing in it is counterproductive.

 

[qui_est_ce]

“Christine”, did you notice Sepharad said “Catholic monarchs”, not all Catholics? And not the authorities in the Vatican?
I’m afraid that what Sepharad told about the Spanish Inquisition actually is the truth, like it or not. The Jewish people experienced the same thing in various places and in various times, repeatedly.
Some may have believed the CC was behind it, but even if the pope were behind it, it would be as an individual, not as a follower of Jesus called the Christ!! So it wouldn’t be the CC even then! Hard to believe, but still very true!
But I don’t think the pope was behind it then…

Then I guess the OP has been answered. There are some bad individuals in any institution, that does not make the institution bad. Thanks.

 

[Lapell]

Then I guess the OP has been answered. There are some bad individuals in any institution, that does not make the institution bad. Thanks.

No, but anybody who suffered seriously from people in any institution (and nothing would seem to happen that would bring a positive enough change) would probably not have a very good impression from that one institution, would he/she?

 

[Lapell]

…Especially when they suffered repeatedly and for so many years!

 

[jmcrae]

No, but anybody who suffered seriously from people in any institution (and nothing would seem to happen that would bring a positive enough change) would probably not have a very good impression from that one institution, would he/she?

I got bullied at school, but I never once thought of blaming the school - it was always the individuals who did the bullying that I hated. Even though, looking back, there were probably lots of things that the administration could have done, that they never did. But I never blamed them for the bullying - I blamed the bullies.

I was 10 years old - if I could differentiate, I bet anyone can.

 

[Lapell]

I got bullied at school, but I never once thought of blaming the school - it was always the individuals who did the bullying that I hated. Even though, looking back, there were probably lots of things that the administration could have done, that they never did. But I never blamed them for the bullying - I blamed the bullies.

I was 10 years old - if I could differentiate, I bet anyone can.

O.K., I should have been more specific… my example was not so good… but you must be acquainted with the case of pedophile priests. Or pedophile religious brothers like in Newfoundland years ago. It DOES make a bad reputation to the Catholic Church, doesn’t it?

 

[qui_est_ce]

O.K., I should have been more specific… my example was not so good… but you must be acquainted with the case of pedophile priests. Or pedophile religious brothers like in Newfoundland years ago. It DOES make a bad reputation to the Catholic Church, doesn’t it?

The strange thing about our base human nature is its persistent focus on the negative.

There are many, many examples of Catholic saintliness in the modern world, like Mother Teresa, Irena Sendlar, Pope Pius XII, Pope JP II, Father Damien. Yet, it’s the bad of the past that keeps some of these threads going.

As Christians we are called to hope. I doubt Christians today blame the Italians for persecuting them in Roman Empire!