How many Catholics think this way?

[qui_est_ce]

But even if it did happen, it was limited to a few Christians, and in one time period only. The long, sad history of Christian persecution of Jews involved many thousands upon thousands of Jews, and lasted 2000 years.

I’ll answer that with your immortal words

So in other words, those of us who are non-Christians should be grateful that “all” they did was expel us (but not, of course, before demanding we leave all our worldly goods behind to enrich the coffers of the Spanish government)?

In other words, those of us who are Christians should be grateful that it was “limited to a few Christians, and in one time period only.”

Both involved persecution of Jews, one on a smaller scale, one on a much larger scale.

Persecution is still persecution. Have the Jews apologized yet?

 

[Sepharad]

there is no if about it it did happen. Oh really give me some modern-day cases in our lifetime where Christians have persecuted Jews then if you say it is still going on prove it. And what about all the Christians that are denied property and other right by the Jewish government in Israel? Is that acceptable?

The government that currently occupies the Holy Land is not Jewish, they are zionist. Its not the same thing. Truly religious Jews would never do half the things they are doing…in fact, truly Orthodox Jews would never have gone to the Holy Land before the Mashiach arrives to take it by force, either.

So anything they do I have nothing to do with, nor does authentic Judaism or authentic Jews. To find out why, see: jewsagainstzionism.com

But apart from that, I was not aware that the zionist government was preventing Christians from owning property or having other rights in the Holy Land. Can you provide proof of that for me? If so, I’d like to know about it. I don’t really pay much attention to what they do over there; I’m waiting for the Mashiach to come and clean that whole mess up over there.

 

[Sepharad]

I’ll answer that with your immortal words
In other words, those of us who are Christians should be grateful that it was “limited to a few Christians, and in one time period only.”
Persecution is still persecution. Have the Jews apologized yet?

If I could learn of Jewish persecution of Christians in ancient times from a non-biased secular historical source, which would therefore establish it as historically factual, then yes, I would apologize for what my ancestors are reputed to have done.

But since the only source which reports this is the NT, and only Christians regard that source as factual, I can’t.

 

[Sepharad]

OK…I just did a quick Google to see if I could find any secular, historical reports concerning ancient Jewish persecution of Christians.

I found one Wikipedia entry which discussed these claims, and I noticed this:

At least by the fourth century, the consensus amongst scholars is that persecution by Jews of Christians has been traditionally overstated; according to James Everett Seaver,
Much of Christian hatred toward the Jews was based on the popular misconception… that the Jews had been the active persecutors of Christians for many centuries… The… examination of the sources for fourth century Jewish history will show that the universal, tenacious, and malicious Jewish hatred of Christianity referred to by the church fathers and countless others has no existence in historical fact. The generalizations of patristic writers in support of the accusation have been wrongly interpreted from the fourth century to the present day. That individual Jews hated and reviled the Christians there can be no doubt, but there is no evidence that the Jews as a class hated and persecuted the Christians as a class during the early years of the fourth century.[4]>>>
Beyond that, the only websites where I found anything about this was on antisemitic sites and Traditionalist Catholic sites. If there is anything reputable out there apart from that and the NT itself, do let me know because I want to know. I want to know if in fact ancient Jews had a campaign to persecute the early Christians, because the secular history books DO report the Roman persecution of Christians. Why not also any Jewish persecution?

 

[Aydan]

Wikipedia can be a very unreliable source because anyone can provide information on it and they try to keep it as accurate as possible but it is still not considered to be an academic source because it is not refereed by professionals. So just use caution when you are quoting it. for example if I useWikipedia for school I’m required to back up the information with a source that has been refereed.I’m not saying the information found is incorrect I’m just giving you a word of caution here.

OK…I just did a quick Google to see if I could find any secular, historical reports concerning ancient Jewish persecution of Christians.

I found one Wikipedia entry which discussed these claims, and I noticed this:

At least by the fourth century, the consensus amongst scholars is that persecution by Jews of Christians has been traditionally overstated; according to James Everett Seaver,
Much of Christian hatred toward the Jews was based on the popular misconception… that the Jews had been the active persecutors of Christians for many centuries… The… examination of the sources for fourth century Jewish history will show that the universal, tenacious, and malicious Jewish hatred of Christianity referred to by the church fathers and countless others has no existence in historical fact. The generalizations of patristic writers in support of the accusation have been wrongly interpreted from the fourth century to the present day. That individual Jews hated and reviled the Christians there can be no doubt, but there is no evidence that the Jews as a class hated and persecuted the Christians as a class during the early years of the fourth century.[4]

 

[distracted]

they need to know that this country…the USA…was founded as a safe haven from that very thing. In fact even Catholics came here, to Maryland, to have a place where they could worship God as they saw fit.

?

you don’t know US history very well, apparently… In Maryland, the Catholics made religious freedom the law… they were the only colony that did NOT persecute other religions… ALL the other colonies were anti-Catholic… Then, when the Protestants got some power in maryland, they enacted anti-Catholic laws…

I could mention other injustices… but i don’t have all day… or all week, i should say…

 

[Lapell]

The Jews persecuted Christians. I know Paul, a Pharisee, was there when Stephen was stoned to death by a Jewish mob.

Correction, qui est-ce: Not all the Jews, just a number of them. So, we should remove the “the”, if we want to be fair…
This being said, I usually like your posts, you know…

 

[Aydan]

Okay I except your explanation on the Israeli government. However it is not up to me to provide to prove because I’m not the one that said Christians have persecuted thousands of Jews over the past 2000 years which I interpret as still going on today because you did not say historically or anything like that so that’s why I asked you if you are asserting that Christians still persecute Jews actively today please provide proof of that.
It’s funny you’re making the same argument about Jews saying it was only a few of them who persecuted Christians on a very limited basis when we are trying to make the same argument about Christians persecuting Jews but yet you still seem to want to blame the church and in doing so blame all Catholics. I simply do not understand your logic here.

The government that currently occupies the Holy Land is not Jewish, they are zionist. Its not the same thing. Truly religious Jews would never do half the things they are doing…in fact, truly Orthodox Jews would never have gone to the Holy Land before the Mashiach arrives to take it by force, either.

So anything they do I have nothing to do with, nor does authentic Judaism or authentic Jews. To find out why, see: jewsagainstzionism.com

But apart from that, I was not aware that the zionist government was preventing Christians from owning property or having other rights in the Holy Land. Can you provide proof of that for me? If so, I’d like to know about it. I don’t really pay much attention to what they do over there; I’m waiting for the Mashiach to come and clean that whole mess up over there.

 

[Lapell]

With all due respect, that is only recorded in the NT, which was never meant to be an historical work, but a religious work of faith.

But even if it did happen, it was limited to a few Christians, and in one time period only. The long, sad history of Christian persecution of Jews involved many thousands upon thousands of Jews, and lasted 2000 years.

Well, the persecution, although done by Catholics, was not really so Christian, not even Catholic! Also, mouth persecution is also harmful, and in that department quite every group is present, thanks!

 

[Aydan]

I and several other people pointed that out earlier in the thread but she did not accept our reasoning.

Well, the persecution, although done by Catholics, was not really so Christian, not even Catholic! Also, mouth persecution is also harmful, and in that department quite every group is present, thanks!

 

[Lapell]

As I’m saying this, however I do respect your people who has suffered very much from repeated persecution. As for ourselves the media kinda murders us quite often by bashing our Church almost every time they have a chance to. It’s just with their mouths, but what they do then is very evil…

 

[Lapell]

I guess it comes with the territory…

 

[qui_est_ce]

The government that currently occupies the Holy Land is not Jewish, they are zionist. Its not the same thing. Truly religious Jews would never do half the things they are doing…in fact, truly Orthodox Jews would never have gone to the Holy Land before the Mashiach arrives to take it by force, either.

So anything they do I have nothing to do with, nor does authentic Judaism or authentic Jews. To find out why, see: jewsagainstzionism.com

I had no idea! See how we learn from one another through dialogue?

But apart from that, I was not aware that the zionist government was preventing Christians from owning property or having other rights in the Holy Land. Can you provide proof of that for me? If so, I’d like to know about it. I don’t really pay much attention to what they do over there; I’m waiting for the Mashiach to come and clean that whole mess up over there.

Every Advent our pastor invites Catholic Palestinians to our parish to sell religious carvings made from the wood of the olive tree. They use only branches and do not cut down trees. For some, this is their only source of income.

catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?id=6498

"* Bethlehem’s plight

“A miserable fate of a different kind is blighting the lives of Christians in Bethlehem, … which is fast disappearing behind an 8-meter-high wall erected by the Israeli authorities,” says ACN. The wall separates the Palestinian territories from Israel.

“For the region’s 60,000 Christian community, the wall looks set to crush the first shoots of re-growth in the business crucial to their livelihood — pilgrimages and tourism,” it explains.

A car journey from Jerusalem to Bethlehem used to be no more than five minutes. Now, with checkpoints and security checks it can take up to three hours.

At best, tourists are likely to make short day trips to Bethlehem, a far cry from the days when they spent several nights there, explains the report.

“For Christians in Bethlehem traveling outside their home city has been difficult for many years and the wall is set to make it even more problematic. It effectively sounds the death knell for anyone commuting from Bethlehem and Jerusalem,” the ACN report stresses.

“Nor can Christians in the area speak up for themselves because they are being drowned out by the growth of the number of Muslims,” it adds. “This combined with the emigration of Christians means that within 25 years the proportion of Christians in Bethlehem has hemorrhaged by up to 50% — now Christians represent only one in 10 people.”

A recent survey revealed that 75% of young people said that given the choice they would leave the country within 24 hours.

“The stagnation of businesses is placing a huge burden on Christian families and many feel the wall will effectively imprison them in their own towns and villages,” warns the Catholic charitable organization. "*

 

[qui_est_ce]

Correction, qui est-ce: Not all the Jews, just a number of them. So, we should remove the “the”, if we want to be fair…
This being said, I usually like your posts, you know…

Picky, Picky. Ok I stand corrected I like your posts too.

 

[Sepharad]

I had no idea! See how we learn from one another through dialogue?
Every Advent our pastor invites Catholic Palestinians to our parish to sell religious carvings made from the wood of the olive tree. They use only branches and do not cut down trees. For some, this is their only source of income.

catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?id=6498

"* Bethlehem’s plight

“A miserable fate of a different kind is blighting the lives of Christians in Bethlehem, … which is fast disappearing behind an 8-meter-high wall erected by the Israeli authorities,” says ACN. The wall separates the Palestinian territories from Israel.

“For the region’s 60,000 Christian community, the wall looks set to crush the first shoots of re-growth in the business crucial to their livelihood — pilgrimages and tourism,” it explains.

A car journey from Jerusalem to Bethlehem used to be no more than five minutes. Now, with checkpoints and security checks it can take up to three hours.

At best, tourists are likely to make short day trips to Bethlehem, a far cry from the days when they spent several nights there, explains the report.

“For Christians in Bethlehem traveling outside their home city has been difficult for many years and the wall is set to make it even more problematic. It effectively sounds the death knell for anyone commuting from Bethlehem and Jerusalem,” the ACN report stresses.

“Nor can Christians in the area speak up for themselves because they are being drowned out by the growth of the number of Muslims,” it adds. “This combined with the emigration of Christians means that within 25 years the proportion of Christians in Bethlehem has hemorrhaged by up to 50% — now Christians represent only one in 10 people.”

A recent survey revealed that 75% of young people said that given the choice they would leave the country within 24 hours.

“The stagnation of businesses is placing a huge burden on Christian families and many feel the wall will effectively imprison them in their own towns and villages,” warns the Catholic charitable organization. "*

That wall the zionists are building is an abominable thing. They feel the need to do that, to keep Arabs out, because deep in their heart they know God is not helping them, because they violated the three oaths in the Talmud, which said that Jews cannot forcibly take ourselves out of exile, we must wait for Hashem to do it.

TRUE Judaism would never advocate the abuse of another people, or depriving them of their livelihood.

 

[qui_est_ce]

That wall the zionists are building is an abominable thing. They feel the need to do that, to keep Arabs out, because deep in their heart they know God is not helping them, because they violated the three oaths in the Talmud, which said that Jews cannot forcibly take ourselves out of exile, we must wait for Hashem to do it.

TRUE Judaism would never advocate the abuse of another people, or depriving them of their livelihood.

That is a very interesting statement. Although this is off topic, I sympathize with the Jewish (Zionist?) state’s
fear of Muslim Arab terrorism.

 

[Aydan]

Sepharad do you have any more resources on the history of the Zionist movement that first web site you provided was good information but I still don’t understand the whole Zionist movement very well. As a matter of fact I’d never heard of it until you talked about it I’ve had Zionist was what Muslim extremist called Jewish people.

That wall the zionists are building is an abominable thing. They feel the need to do that, to keep Arabs out, because deep in their heart they know God is not helping them, because they violated the three oaths in the Talmud, which said that Jews cannot forcibly take ourselves out of exile, we must wait for Hashem to do it.

TRUE Judaism would never advocate the abuse of another people, or depriving them of their livelihood.

 

[DrewC]

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation

I find this statement so funny and yet so arrogant at the same time. It really disgusts me that Catholics think this way. I am a former Catholic converted to a Methodist Church. I cant believe that I used to think the Catholic Church is the only REAL church there is.

The Catholic Church claims to be infaliable and they go one step further claiming the Pope is infaliable. The only thing that is infaliable is God Himself, not a church run by men or a man who runs the church. Yes I acknowldge that the Catholic Church was the first church (although not known as the Catholic church back then) but the Church is not infaliable. What happend to the idea of limbo? This was not a doctrine but was a very highly held belief yet the Catholic Church came out last year and said “we are doing away with the idea”.

Anyway, the point of this post is, if you believe that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church then you are nuts! By the way, isnt that known as judging? Shouldnt be doing that:shrug:

 

[Valke2]

That wall the zionists are building is an abominable thing. They feel the need to do that, to keep Arabs out, because deep in their heart they know God is not helping them, because they violated the three oaths in the Talmud, which said that Jews cannot forcibly take ourselves out of exile, we must wait for Hashem to do it.

TRUE Judaism would never advocate the abuse of another people, or depriving them of their livelihood.

I disagree. The three oaths that you refer to were, as i’ve said in the past, conditioned upon a 4th oath – that no nation should unduly punish the people of Israel. I think a strong argument can be made that the events of WWII constituted undue punishment and that therefore, we did not go agianst God by estiablishing the state of Israel.

 

[estesbob]

That wall the zionists are building is an abominable thing. They feel the need to do that, to keep Arabs out, because deep in their heart they know God is not helping them, because they violated the three oaths in the Talmud, which said that Jews cannot forcibly take ourselves out of exile, we must wait for Hashem to do it.

TRUE Judaism would never advocate the abuse of another people, or depriving them of their livelihood.

Suicide bombings have dropped 90% since the wall went up. The frist duty of any Govt is to protect its populace.