How many Christians would love to see Catholics...

[estesbob]

And assume, for a moment, please, that I’m right here. What harm is there in believing that Jesus had brothers and sisters (half siblings)? It seems that it would show Jesus would therefore understand our family situations and problems that much better, wouldn’t it?

…

The harm comes from destroying the credibility of the Church. If the Church is wrong about Mary then how do we know they are nor likewise wrong about the Ressurection? The Divinity of Jesus? The Real Presence?

Are we, as Catholics, to pick and choose among doctrines ,accepting only those we fully understand and/or agree with?

Thomas Aquinas said if Mary had relations after the Birth of Jesus it was an afront to the Holy Spirit and the desecration of the most sacred tabernacle of all. Would you have us beleive Mary was nothing more than a vessel(a baby mama so to speak) that God decided to park his Son in for nine months?

In the Old Testament God ggives specific direction on maintinaing the sanctity of theTabernacle. Would you have us believe God expected more sancity fin a tabenacle that contained tablets and mana than he did for the Taberancele that contained his son?

 

[Esdra]

I realized this because of the tradition of putting a statue of Mary in the garden as I was looking for a statue of Mary for my own garden.

It falls into the same vein as celebrating Jesus’ birthday on December 25. Coincidence that it’s so close to the winter solstice? How about the spring solstice and Easter? Halloween and All Souls’/All Saints’ Day?

These are the examples of what I’m talking about: the church converting people and adopting their some of their pagan beliefs, possibly to keep some familiarity for them. They reflected the church and the church responded in kind.

Like I said you understand very little about Catholicism.

Funny, I hear Mormon apologists say exactly the same thing when confronted with things that they don’t like.

Again, this in no way, shape, or form damages Mary’s contribution to God’s plan of salvation, but since she’s not God, she’s not to worshipped.

Very good post.

This is exactley what I also have written sometimes here in the CAF!

Believe it or not, through my long bible-studies (autodidactic!) I have found out that this is COMPLETELY true.

Esdra

 

[Joshua27]

The harm comes from destroying the credibility of the Church. If the Church is wrong about Mary then how do we know they are nor likewise wrong about the Ressurection? The Divinity of Jesus? The Real Presence?

Are we, as Catholics, to pick and choose among doctrines ,accepting only those we fully understand and/or agree with?

Thomas Aquinas said if Mary had relations after the Birth of Jesus it was an afront to the Holy Spirit and the desecration of the most sacred tabernacle of all. Would you have us beleive Mary was nothing more than a vessel(a baby mama so to speak) that God decided to park his Son in for nine months?

In the Old Testament God ggives specific direction on maintinaing the sanctity of theTabernacle. Would you have us believe God expected more sancity fin a tabenacle that contained tablets and mana than he did for the Taberancele that contained his son?

There are rules to entering into this physical world as set by the Father that must be followed. The Son of God had all authority in Heaven, but Birth - becoming the Son of Man through the Davidic line - gave him the right to possess all authority on Earth (eventually to be taken back from Satan).

I don’t understand how having children in marriage AFTER Christ has left her womb is an afront to the Holy Spirit and desecrates Mary. Such a notion suggests that “sex” (in and of itself) is a sinful act.

Sexual union in context of marriage is righteous, holy and of God. “Be fruitful and multiply”…“What God has joined together let no man separate”; “and Adam knew his wife…”, “take not for wives from the Cainanites [to Solomon]”

And as for the “Tabernacle”; God’s sacred tabernacle [dwelling place] is wherever God currently dwells (at that time)…and that dwelling place has often changed through the course of biblical history:

1. The Burning Bush (then the Mountain)
2. The Arc of Testimony (Covenant)
3. The Holy of Holies in the Rolling Tabernacle Camp (during the 40yr wilderness)
4. The Holy of Holies in the First Temple
5. The Holy of Holies in the Second Temple
6. Mary’s Flesh (during the nine-month gestation period)
7. Christ’s Flesh (after baptism and during his ministry)

…Then Christ - before his salvific act - prayed that all would be one IN him and he IN them as God is one IN him and he IN Him.

1. The Apostles’s Bodies at Pentecost (after the receipt of the Holy Spirit, fulfilling Christ prayer)

Christ could no more return to Mary’s womb than any one of us can within our mothers’. Christ dwelled within Mary for nine months and during that time she WAS the sacred tabernacle, but after Mary gave flesh (a temple) to Christ he was born into this world (leaving Mary).

…and we have evidence that Christ’s flesh became the new temple (tabernacle) of God, because Christ himself says, “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up”, but Christ was talking about his body. Christ’s body became the new tabernacle (of the Holy Spirit of God) after birth, which meant Mary was free to live her life in obedient righteousness; being fruitful and multiplying with her husband in marriage.

 

[eucharisteo]

Could it be that those who want to believe Mary gave birth to other children is a way of discrediting the teachings of both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches? After all it’s not just us that believe this. There are many Protestants that beleive the same. I’ve heard that more and more people are beginning to accept this teaching because of learning about the culture and historical facts uncovered over time. The internet super highway has opened Pandora’s box for those that are discovering they can no longer keep their heads buried in the sand. If I can come to believe, then anyone can. I was vehemently anti-Catholic, fallen away Catholics typically are and are very verbose against teachings they’ve rejected on what they believe to be the truth because they - me in this case - felt duped into believing things they doubted growing up. But once you start discovering things to actually be true or even plausible then you really are basing a believe on your own choosing, not God’s truth.

 

[JonNC]

So clear that it took man 1,500 years to figure it out.

Actually, longer, as all the early Lutheran reformers, and other early reformers as well, held to the Blessed Virgins perpetual virginity.

Jon

 

[eucharisteo]

Actually, longer, as all the early Lutheran reformers, and other early reformers as well, held to the Blessed Virgins perpetual virginity.

Jon

This is exactly my point. I know several fundamentalists that believe the same thing. Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Assembly of God, Church of Christ, etc.

It’s like when contraception first came out, all believers rejected it at first. But gradually it became more and more tempting to overlook and later accepted, even openly among the Christian community. I know family that talk about it and tubiligation as if it were the in they were shopping. The point is that most all Christians accepted Mary to be ever virgin without question. This question is so foreign to Christianity that it really belongs to New Age or some other cult.

 

[estesbob]

This is exactly my point. I know several fundamentalists that believe the same thing. Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Assembly of God, Church of Christ, etc.

It’s like when contraception first came out, all believers rejected it at first. But gradually it became more and more tempting to overlook and later accepted, even openly among the Christian community. I know family that talk about it and tubiligation as if it were the in they were shopping. The point is that most all Christians accepted Mary to be ever virgin without question. This question is so foreign to Christianity that it really belongs to New Age or some other cult.

The idea that Mary had children was unknown unitl relatively recent times. It came about not becuase of any new revelations from scripture-it came about as a cudgel for protetstants to use to try and bash the credibility of the One True Church

 

[Church_Militant]

I think you’ve been beaten up too much from people wrongfully telling others that Catholics are not Christian. That is not only the biggest lie anyone has ever conjured up but someone would have to be very dumb not to see through it. The irony is that I’ve met may in my past where I asked if they were Christian and they’d reply “no, I’m Catholic”. I correct them each and every time. I do not tolerate that, even when I was practicing a very anti-Catholic fundamentalist faith. I’m a revert too. Even though I corrected people when they tried to say Catholics are pagans I still thought that leaders back in the early days lied, made up and misled people down an authoritarian road to control the people the way they wanted…“clericalism”.

Nah…I just wanted to make that same point.

 

[mpjw2]

Hi all,

I would absolutely love to see catholics come to an agreement as a whole about christian faith and what a true christian is?

If they are the one and only church Christ established, then why is there still confusion within the church on certain issues

the following exchange illustrates my point…

Returning Home

This I can’t understand. Why can’t a Protestant, Baptist, Epicopalian, or another Judeo-Christian brach be a true Christian? They all worship the same God, but in slightly differing ways. The creeds aren’t that different, the modes of worship either.

Who says I and many other non RC christians are not true christians.

estesbob

There are huge differnces in the Doctrines of the Church and the Denominations you mention.

tweetymom

But there is only one God of all.

eucharisteo

And one God that requires us to follow his teachings, not mans.

Returning Home

I agree and thus we get into the problems of Catholicism versus the Bible.

these statements bothered me.

I agree we need to follow God’s ways not man’s.

What is not clear to me is, …

**Do Catholics believe ***all *non Catholic Christians are not following God’s ways but following man’s?

also

why would a catholic believe there is a problem of "Catholicism versus the Bible"

I never heard …

a baptist say there is a problem with

being a baptist vs the bible

or

a protestant say there is a problem with

being a protestant vs the bible

or a

methodist say there is a problem with

being a methodist vs the bible

Returning Home

While I’m no expert on any of those groups, what are the major differences between them and Catholics, other than not accepting the Catholic leadership?

Again, they pray to the same God and they use the Bible.

yes we do

my friends…

In my heart of hearts, I believe I am a true Christian.

Do I sin like everyone else?
yes

Do I sincerely confess and repent of my sin to God each time I fail?
yes

Does God forgive me and my soul restored to grace after confessing
I believe absolutely

Do I believe God…by sending His son Jesus to die on the cross, then being buried and 3 days after rising from the dead…is His gift to us all so that our sins can be forgiven so that we can have eternal life in heaven?

Yes I do

the bible declares…

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Or through
Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Do I have the desire to follow Jesus and reach out to the world in Jesus’ name to be a Godly loving witness to all I come in contact with so that they may find the truth of God’s saving grace through my actions and words?

Yes I do

here is an example of how God recently used me in a restaurant to witness to a waitress…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6655832#post6655832

after saying all this…here is the problem I am sure we can all agree…

consider this…

I admit I **do not **believe…

Christ established the apostolic succesion from pope to priest
Mary was a perpetual virgin
purgatory is real
infant baptism
the Eucharist is the actual body of Christ
only “mortal” sins need to be confessed
the need to confess to a priest
one is obligated to go to church
praying the rosary

I believe I am a true Christian, I did not say a perfect Christian

however I also believe that my Catholic brethern believe I am not a true Christian

I also believe that through a Catholic’s eye, in order for me to be a true Christian, I would need to believe all what I stated above that I currently do not believe

please correct me if I am wrong

last thought…

Does Catholics believe one has to be Catholic to be a true Christian?

If catholics believe I am not a true Christian, and I die not being a true Christian, how do catholics believe God will save?

thank you

God bless

mpjw

 

[estesbob]

Hi all,

I would absolutely love to see catholics come to an agreement as a whole about christian faith and what a true christian is?

mpjw

All you have t do is go here and you can find out what Catholics believe ABOUT EVERTHING concenring our Faith. scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Once you’ve done that perhaps you can tell us why "Bible Believing Christans: have split into thousands of different sects?

 

[mpjw2]

All you have t do is go here and you can find out what Catholics believe ABOUT EVERTHING concenring our Faith. scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Once you’ve done that perhaps you can tell us why "Bible Believing Christans: have split into thousands of different sects?

in all due respect estesbob, I am asking questions in my post NOT to be directed to the Catholic Catechism

If you would be so kind, can you answer all my questions in bold face according to how you best understand the answer to be?

I appreciate it

God bless

 

[Norval]

I agree with Hesychios, we need to learn more of the Catholic and Orthodox Faiths. That goes for the Protestants also. Learning is not enough, it has to be assimilated and lived 24/7.
There was a TV show featuring three catholics in Norway (two were priests) and they all agreed that people needed more knowledge of their church. They also related this to vocations. They also agreed that it had fostered more vocations since they had implemented it in their parishes. The **Holy Spirit **was a given but the three things we need to accomplish all this was, catechisis, catechisis, catechisis.
One of the big failings that I perceive is most people that are confirmed consider that to be a graduation. I believe it must be viewed as a Commencement to a life of continued learning and conforming ones self to the Will of God.
Regressing a little, one of the Norwegian priests had been raised Lutheran. Father John Neuhaus had also been a Luther pastor. Soon to be St. John Henry Cardinal Newman was raised in the Anglican faith. The one thing they had in common was that going back to the roots (1st & 2nd century) of the church they found the true church. They were also serious about their personal faith.
Catechisis, Catechisis, Catechisis
God Bless!!!

 

[estesbob]

in all due respect estesbob, I am asking questions in my post NOT to be directed to the Catholic Catechism

If you would be so kind, can you answer all my questions in bold face according to how you best understand the answer to be?

I appreciate it

God bless

I dont speak for the Church-no one here does. the Cathecism is on line and answers all of your questions in great deatil.

 

[Sir_Knight]

VetA;6649116:

i believe catholics are the only true

Christians. other denominations contain truth, but it needs to be remembered that the truth they contain is Catholic truthAnd statements like this, which are NOT part of the churches teachings are what cause so much dissension between Catholics and Protestants…

Statements like this reflect the position of Pope Benedict XVI who recently approved a document saying “non-Catholic Christian communities are either defective or not true churches, and the Roman Catholic Church provides the only true path to salvation.”

The document said the Orthodox church suffered from a “wound” because it did not recognize the primacy of the pope, adding the wound was “still more profound” among Protestant denominations. It was “difficult to see how the title of ‘Church’ could possibly be attributed to them,” said the statement from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, purporting Roman Catholicism was “the one true Church of Christ.” (Source)

While the teaching is not considered to be infallible, I’ll take the “opinion” of the Pope on these matters.

 

[mpjw2]

Statements like this reflect the position of Pope Benedict XVI who recently approved a document saying "non-Catholic Christian communities are either defective or not true churches, and the Roman Catholic Church provides the only true path to salvation."

The document said the Orthodox church suffered from a “wound” because it did not recognize the primacy of the pope, adding the wound was “still more profound” among Protestant denominations. It was “difficult to see how the title of ‘Church’ could possibly be attributed to them,” said the statement from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, purporting Roman Catholicism was “the one true Church of Christ.” (Source)

While the teaching is not considered to be infallible, I’ll take the "opinion" of the Pope on these matters.

Thank God the Pope is not God

I all due respect, I will take God’s word over the Pope’s opinion anyday.

Wouldn’t you?

 

[Sir_Knight]

And where do you have God’s word on this? Scripture? The same scripture which warns AGAINST the private interpretation of scripture? The same scripture which tells us to be obedient to our Church leaders? The same scripture which tells us that when they speak, it is God speaking through them? The same scripture which tells us that WHATEVER they bind on earth WILL BE bound in heaven?

 

[estesbob]

Thank God the Pope is not God

I all due respect, I will take God’s word over the Pope’s opinion anyday.

Wouldn’t you?

But you are not asking us to take Gods word. You are asking us to accpet your personal opinion of what Gods word is. given that there are thousands of different versions in thousands of different Protestant denominations why should we accept what you say?