How many cross-border dioceses are there?

[Digitonomy]

In this thread
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1012311
the Archbishop of Armagh notes that his diocese is partly in the Republic of Ireland, and partly in the UK. That strikes me as unusual. This is especially true from a North American pespective, where we don’t even have have diocese crossing state or provincial lines AFAIK, apparently because it simplifies the legal status of dioceses, and their ownership of property including that of parishes.

How many other cross-border dioceses exist in the world, and where are they?

I suppose Rome would be one, as it includes Vatican City.
I think some Eastern eparchies are more thinly spread, and so may cover several countries.

 

[adamhovey1988]

In this thread
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1012311
the Archbishop of Armagh notes that his diocese is partly in the Republic of Ireland, and partly in the UK. That strikes me as unusual. This is especially true from a North American pespective, where we don’t even have have diocese crossing state or provincial lines AFAIK, apparently because it simplifies the legal status of dioceses, and their ownership of property including that of parishes.

How many other cross-border dioceses exist in the world, and where are they?

I suppose Rome would be one, as it includes Vatican City.
I think some Eastern eparchies are more thinly spread, and so may cover several countries.

It’s not as unusual as you would think a lot of Eastern Catholic Eparchies are cross National borders. I’m not sure what the status of that is in the United States but I do know that they do Exist Elsewhere I know that the entire United States is covered by the Eparchy of Newton which goes at least across state borders. My own diocese the Diocese of Charleston is the only diocese in the entire state of South Carolina well the only Catholic Diocese obviously you have the Orthodox and I think their Dioceses that they go through multiple States because aren’t that many Orthodox in the United States there are hundreds of millions of Orthodox. I think with Ireland it’s a unique situation because it’s one Island covered by two different National jurisdictions and it’s just easier to have the diocese on both parts of the island and it depends on when the diocese was established too remember the British have not always been in the north of Ireland

 

[GEddie]

It’s not as unusual as you would think a lot of Eastern Catholic Eparchies are cross National borders. I’m not sure what the status of that is in the United States but I do know that they do Exist Elsewhere I know that the entire United States is covered by the Eparchy of Newton which goes at least across state borders. My own diocese the Diocese of Charleston is the only diocese in the entire state of South Carolina well the only Catholic Diocese obviously you have the Orthodox and I think their Dioceses that they go through multiple States because aren’t that many Orthodox in the United States there are hundreds of millions of Orthodox. I think with Ireland it’s a unique situation because it’s one Island covered by two different National jurisdictions and it’s just easier to have the diocese on both parts of the island and it depends on when the diocese was established too remember the British have not always been in the north of Ireland

Or rather, the British held all of Ireland until 1921, but withdrew from the lower five-sixths of the island, which became the Republic.

I am unaware of any dioceses, Catholic or otherwise, that cross international frontiers in NA. However, the state of TX lies within the Orthodox diocese of Denver, which then at least covers several states.

ICXC NIKA

 

[commenter]

The Personal Prelature of Opus Dei potentially covers the whole world, or at least all places where Opus Dei has activity. I think the Anglican Ordinariate for North America covers Catholics in the US and Canada, though the US and Canada will hopefully develop their own. Military Ordinariates cover military families of a single country, though some bases are located in another country. In the US the military ordinariate has the status of an archdiocese, not sure about other countries.

 

[Phemie]

I’m in the province of Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada, and until recently our diocese (Diocese of Labrador City-Schefferville) encompassed parts of Newfoundland and Labrador and parts of Quebec.

The Diocese of Labrador City-Schefferville was suppressed in 2007; the Quebec part was divided between two dioceses in Quebec (Amos & Baie-Comeau) and the Labrador part was added to the St. George’s Diocese which was renamed the Diocese of Corner Brook and Labrador.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

OP, it is important to remember that the Diocese of Armagh did not cross any national border when it was created hundreds of years ago. The split of Ireland into two countries was a 20th century imposition on Ireland. The Catholic Church has, of course, never recognized the division of Ireland.

 

[peter26]

Let’s not forget the Ordinariates, which are in Canon Law equivalent to dioceses. The Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter encompasses both the US and Canada, while the Ordinariate of Our Lady of the southern Cross is Australia, but also includes one Japanese parish.

 

[InThePew]

Ireland aside, the only others I think are the diocese of Tarawa and Nauru which covers territory in the South Pacific island nations of Kiribati and Nauru, and the Vicariate Apostolic (sort of a not-yet diocese) of Southern Arabia which covers the nations of Bahrain, Oman, Qatar, United Arab Emirates, and Yemen.

OP, it is important to remember that the Diocese of Armagh did not cross any national border when it was created hundreds of years ago. The split of Ireland into two countries was a 20th century imposition on Ireland. The Catholic Church has, of course, never recognized the division of Ireland.

It would be fair to say that National boundaries (at least as we understand them today) didn’t exist at all when the Archdiocese of Armagh was erected! The Irish Catholic Bishops conference covers the whole of Ireland (so Northern Ireland plus the Republic) so sort of exists between two separate countries (being the UK and Ireland). That said, on the ground the border might as well not even exist at least in so far as movement of people is concerned. People can and do cross back and forth freely (in some cases several times a day).

 

[Digitonomy]

It’s not as unusual as you would think a lot of Eastern Catholic Eparchies are cross National borders. I’m not sure what the status of that is in the United States but I do know that they do Exist Elsewhere I know that the entire United States is covered by the Eparchy of Newton which goes at least across state borders. My own diocese the Diocese of Charleston is the only diocese in the entire state of South Carolina.

Although as I pointed out some eparchies may do this, at least in the US there seems to be a strong preference for dividing dioceses between states. There is not any particular reason that Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine each require their own dioceses, that are exactly contiguous with the states.

By the same token, cities like Cincinnati, Kansas City, and Texarkana should logically be at more or less the center of one diocese, but are instead split between two dioceses simply due to the location of state lines.

adamhovey1988:

I think with Ireland it’s a unique situation because it’s one Island covered by two different National jurisdictions and it’s just easier to have the diocese on both parts of the island and it depends on when the diocese was established too remember the British have not always been in the north of Ireland

I can think of a few other islands that are split between nations - Hispaniola, Borneo, New Guinea, St. Martin - but I don’t think any include cross-border dioceses. Maybe St. Martin.

 

[jilly4ski]

The Ecclesiastical Province of Saint Paul and Minneapolis (the Archdiocese) actually covers all of Minnesota, North Dakota and South Dakota. It is not the same as dioceses crossing borders or crossing national borders, but in the western US many archdioceses cross state borders.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Ecclesiastical_Prov._of_St.Paul%26_Mpls_map_1.png

 

[dans0622]

In this thread
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1012311
the Archbishop of Armagh notes that his diocese is partly in the Republic of Ireland, and partly in the UK. That strikes me as unusual. …

How many other cross-border dioceses exist in the world, and where are they?

…

It certainly is unusual. The expectation is that civil boundaries will be aligned with the ecclesiastical ones. From Vatican II’s Christus Dominus, n. 23:

1.) In determining a diocesan boundary, as far as possible consideration should be given the variety in composition of the people of God, for this can contribute greatly to a more effective exercise of the pastoral office. At the same time the natural population units of people, together with the civil jurisdictions and social institutions that compose their organic structure, should be preserved, as far as possible, as units. For this reason, obviously, the territory of each diocese should be continuous. vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651028_christus-dominus_en.html

Having the territory of a diocese go across national boundaries makes pastoral care more difficult (immigration/customs/visas/finances/etc). So, it certainly makes sense for there to be minimal dioceses which encompass (parts of) more than one country.

As for examples, I don’t know of any offhand. There may be some. I know of one diocese that includes parts of two different states in the USA: the diocese of Gallup, NM, has territory in Arizona and New Mexico.

Dan

 

[Phemie]

It certainly is unusual. The expectation is that civil boundaries will be aligned with the ecclesiastical ones. From Vatican II’s Christus Dominus, n. 23:

Having the territory of a diocese go across national boundaries makes pastoral care more difficult (immigration/customs/visas/finances/etc). So, it certainly makes sense for there to be minimal dioceses which encompass (parts of) more than one country.

As for examples, I don’t know of any offhand. There may be some. I know of one diocese that includes parts of two different states in the USA: the diocese of Gallup, NM, has territory in Arizona and New Mexico.

Dan

That document certainly explains why our diocese used to comprise all of Labrador and northern Quebec. We are one land mass, our indigenous populations are the Innu, the Inuit and the Metis. The Inuit tend to be Moravian because the Moravian missionaries had a much earlier presence than any of the other religions, dating back to 1752 and permanently since 1771. Catholic missionaries didn’t arrive until some time in the early to mid 1800s and they didn’t travel as far north as the Moravians. The Innu of Quebec and Labrador tend to be Catholic because those are the missionaries they encountered. Metis tend toward the other mainstream non-Catholic religions: Anglican, United Church or Pentecostal.

Now that that diocese has been suppressed, we are part of a diocese that consists of two separate land masses, covers 119,854 square miles and has a Catholic population of ~43,000. To drive to our parish from the diocesan see takes about 15 hours of driving, much of it over a dirt road, and a 1 hr. 45 min. ferry crossing. There are 2 parishes that can only be reached by air (or by boat in the summer).

 

[twf]

The Ecclesiastical Province of Saint Paul and Minneapolis (the Archdiocese) actually covers all of Minnesota, North Dakota and South Dakota. It is not the same as dioceses crossing borders or crossing national borders, but in the western US many archdioceses cross state borders.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Ecclesiastical_Prov._of_St.Paul%26_Mpls_map_1.png

I think this is a bit misleading. As I understand it, the Archdiocese itself is limited to part of Minnesota (in and around the metropolitan area of Minneapolis and St Paul). The Ecclesiastical Province, which comprises the Archdiocese and the other Dioceses, includes the above mentioned states. The Archdiocese and the Province have the same name, but they are not the same thing. A Metropolitan Archbishop has immediate jurisdiction as ordinary only over the territory of his archdiocese. The bishops of the other dioceses in the province are completely autonomous from him, though canon law grants him a limited primacy as “first among equals”.

Take my own location. The Ecclesiastical Province of Vancouver shares the same boundaries (more or less) as the civil province of British Columbia. It is comprised of the Archdiocese of Vancouver and the Dioceses of Victoria, Nelson, Kamloops, and Prince George. The Archbishop of Vancouver is only ordinary for the archdiocese itself, which is limited to the Greater Vancouver area, the Fraser Valley, and the Sunshine Coast, but does not include the rest of the ecclesiastical province. He is first among the bishops of the province, but he isn’t their “boss”. There are different norms on a number of issues between the archdiocese of Vancouver and neighbouring Diocese of Nelson (for example, in Vancouver proper we kneel during the entire EP, in Nelson you only during the consecration).

 

[jilly4ski]

I think this is a bit misleading. As I understand it, the Archdiocese itself is limited to part of Minnesota (in and around the metropolitan area of Minneapolis and St Paul). The Ecclesiastical Province, which comprises the Archdiocese and the other Dioceses, includes the above mentioned states. The Archdiocese and the Province have the same name, but they are not the same thing. A Metropolitan Archbishop has immediate jurisdiction as ordinary only over the territory of his archdiocese. The bishops of the other dioceses in the province are completely autonomous from him, though canon law grants him a limited primacy as “first among equals”.

Take my own location. The Ecclesiastical Province of Vancouver shares the same boundaries (more or less) as the civil province of British Columbia. It is comprised of the Archdiocese of Vancouver and the Dioceses of Victoria, Nelson, Kamloops, and Prince George. The Archbishop of Vancouver is only ordinary for the archdiocese itself, which is limited to the Greater Vancouver area, the Fraser Valley, and the Sunshine Coast, but does not include the rest of the ecclesiastical province. He is first among the bishops of the province, but he isn’t their “boss”. There are different norms on a number of issues between the archdiocese of Vancouver and neighbouring Diocese of Nelson (for example, in Vancouver proper we kneel during the entire EP, in Nelson you only during the consecration).

Good distinction.