How many denominations?

[josephback]

Hi. We’re gonna have a little challenge. Some time ago I posted in the Apologetics forum seeking the true number of Protestant denominations. Six guidelines were laid out. This time we’re gonna change them a bit. The objective is to see how many non-Catholic theologies/groups there are out there. No personal insults please, but plenty of honest debate and introspection. The guidelines for a group are:

1. The group cannot be Catholic. In othere words the Catholic Church doesn’t count. We are measuring the number and diversity of non-Catholic groups against the absolute unity and teaching of the Holy Church.
2. The group must have a founder and a founding date. That is, it must have a founding personage or personages and it must have a date of beginning, that is the genesis of the movement.
3. Lastly, it must have a distinguishing feature or teaching which it will not compromise with others on. This can be anything. whether required immersion baptism, sabbath keeping, or whatever.

These guidelines signifigantly loosen the requirements for posting. It should be fun. Good luck!

 

[Esdra]

Hi. We’re gonna have a little challenge. Some time ago I posted in the Apologetics forum seeking the true number of Protestant denominations. Six guidelines were laid out. This time we’re gonna change them a bit. The objective is to see how many non-Catholic theologies/groups there are out there. No personal insults please, but plenty of honest debate and introspection. The guidelines for a group are:

1. The group cannot be Catholic. In othere words the Catholic Church doesn’t count. We are measuring the number and diversity of non-Catholic groups against the absolute unity and teaching of the Holy Church.
2. The group must have a founder and a founding date. That is, it must have a founding personage or personages and it must have a date of beginning, that is the genesis of the movement.

1. Lastly, it must have a distinguishing feature or teaching which it will not compromise with others on. This can be anything. whether required immersion baptism, sabbath keeping, or whatever.

But you do know that many Protestant Churches believe very similar things?

These guidelines signifigantly loosen the requirements for posting. It should be fun. Good luck!

Hi

hm, okay.

I’ll make a start:
**
Baptist Church(es)**

founded by John Smyth, at about 1606 in England.

• Immersion Baptism Only - Believer’s Baptism.
• Giving One’s Life to Jesus - Accepting Him as one’s saviour.
• Lord’s Supper: grape juice used; Lord’s Supper is only symbolic!
• sola gratia, sole fide, solus iesus, sola scriptura
  [in English: We are saved
  1. only by grace

  2.                             only through believing (in Him)

  3.                             only through Him, Jesus.

  4. The Holy Bible is His Word and the only source of authority.]
  5. No Mary and no Saints honouring.
  Is this about that what you intend with this thread?
  
  in Christ,

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I doubt many denominations could clearly meet both the second and the third requirements. My own native United Methodist Church, for example. Nevertheless they are a distinct group with a distinct sense of identity. Why insist on requirements that are bound to get you a skewed answer?

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Hi. We’re gonna have a little challenge. Some time ago I posted in the Apologetics forum seeking the true number of Protestant denominations. Six guidelines were laid out. This time we’re gonna change them a bit. The objective is to see how many non-Catholic theologies/groups there are out there. No personal insults please, but plenty of honest debate and introspection. The guidelines for a group are:

1. The group cannot be Catholic. In othere words the Catholic Church doesn’t count. We are measuring the number and diversity of non-Catholic groups against the absolute unity and teaching of the Holy Church.
2. The group must have a founder and a founding date. That is, it must have a founding personage or personages and it must have a date of beginning, that is the genesis of the movement.
3. Lastly, it must have a distinguishing feature or teaching which it will not compromise with others on. This can be anything. whether required immersion baptism, sabbath keeping, or whatever.

These guidelines signifigantly loosen the requirements for posting. It should be fun. Good luck!

I am in a Protestant forum and began a Thread that asked: “Why are there 200 Protestant Churches?” and someone replied that there are 33 thousand and I was shocked to see in the net that they are growing with the NetChurches at eh rhythm of 200 a month. And my informer commented: “and in the world there are 10 thousand religions”. It makes me sad …

 

[samiam1611]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions

 

[JonNC]

=josephback;8359235]Hi. We’re gonna have a little challenge. Some time ago I posted in the Apologetics forum seeking the true number of Protestant denominations. Six guidelines were laid out. This time we’re gonna change them a bit. The objective is to see how many non-Catholic theologies/groups there are out there. No personal insults please, but plenty of honest debate and introspection. The guidelines for a group are:

1. The group cannot be Catholic. In othere words the Catholic Church doesn’t count. We are measuring the number and diversity of non-Catholic groups against the absolute unity and teaching of the Holy Church.

Problem one, here, is the notion here, against the absolute unity and teaching of the Holy Church. Lutherans are not against unity and the teaching of the Holy Church. The Augsburg Confession makes that clear, and our acceptance of the early coucnils and three creeds is evidence of that. Where we differ with Rome is in areas we believe Rome is in error about that early teaching of the Church.

1. The group must have a founder and a founding date. That is, it must have a founding personage or personages and it must have a date of beginning, that is the genesis of the movement.

Historically, we view ourselves as part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, of which Christ is the founder. But if you are speaking about our Reformation era leaders, we would include Luther, Melanchthon, among others.

1. Lastly, it must have a distinguishing feature or teaching which it will not compromise with others on. This can be anything. whether required immersion baptism, sabbath keeping, or whatever.

I guess, for us, that might be that the Augsburg Confession, its Apology, and the Small Catechism rightly reflect the truth of scripture and the faith. Otherwise, we have very much in common with Rome, and other things in common with Orthodoxy, and still others with other Reformation era communions.

These guidelines signifigantly loosen the requirements for posting. It should be fun. Good luck!

I just hope it doesn’t deteriorate.

Jon

 

[JHow]

I think your task will be huge if you go about it one-by-one.

However, maybe this can serve as a point of departure…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

 

[josephback]

But you do know that many Protestant Churches believe very similar things?

Is this about that what you intend with this thread?

in Christ,

They believe very similar things yes, but not exact. Your list goes above and beyond what I intended. Now we just have to compare it to another group’s beliefs and ponder that both cannot be right. Truth is absolute, not relative. That said, let’s add some more

 

[josephback]

I doubt many denominations could clearly meet both the second and the third requirements. My own native United Methodist Church, for example. Nevertheless they are a distinct group with a distinct sense of identity. Why insist on requirements that are bound to get you a skewed answer?

I didn’t mean to give guidelines that would produce a skewed answer. Methodists might be concilitory in their beliefs, but others are more militant. What changes to the guidelines do you suggest?

 

[josephback]

Problem one, here, is the notion here, against the absolute unity and teaching of the Holy Church. Lutherans are not against unity and the teaching of the Holy Church. The Augsburg Confession makes that clear, and our acceptance of the early coucnils and three creeds is evidence of that. Where we differ with Rome is in areas we believe Rome is in error about that early teaching of the Church.

I just hope it doesn’t deteriorate.

Jon

I haven’t read the Augsburg Confession, but growing up I wanted to be Lutheran. Our family was ex-Lutheran turned Pentecostal…So if you believe Rome is in error, then you believe the institutional Church can get matters of faith wrong and officially teach falsehood. That sort of thinking would make me very insecure

What is the Lutheran view of Orthodoxy?

 

[josephback]

JonNC and others,

By the phrase "againt the unity and teaching of the Holy Church I should have said “unity OF teaching” in the Catholic Church. Simply put I meant to contrast the diversity and change in non-Catholic thought versus the relative stability of Catholic teaching. I know some non-Catholic communities are more stable in thought than others, but overall there’s no comparison. And I’ll stop jogging up the comments.

Back to the stated intentions!

 

[JonNC]

I haven’t read the Augsburg Confession, but growing up I wanted to be Lutheran. Our family was ex-Lutheran turned Pentecostal…

bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php

So if you believe Rome is in error, then you believe the institutional Church can get matters of faith wrong and officially teach falsehood. That sort of thinking would make me very insecure

Curiously, I seem to find the greatest angst regarding rome to be what has happened in her teachings since the Schism, though I understand that the Catholic position is that nothing has changed for 2000 years, except development of doctrine. I would suspect you would be insecure with that thinking if you felt that way.

What is the Lutheran view of Orthodoxy?

In some ways, Lutherans seem to have a more positive view of Orthodoxy, at least in terms of an appearance of being less willing to “develop” its doctrine. OTOH, we differ in terms of the view of Original Sin, etc. We are, after all, part of the western Church.

Jon

 

[amber_lux]

against the absolute unity and teaching of the Holy Church.

Liberation Theology on one side and Traditional Catholicism on the other.

And that is before you start examining the beliefs of the individual Catholics.

Catholics are as diverse in their beliefs than Protestants are.

1. Lastly, it must have a distinguishing feature or teaching which it will not compromise with others on. This can be anything. whether required immersion baptism, Sabbath keeping, or whatever.

That criteria makes for over a thousand catholic denominations. All of which pay lip service, and sometimes more, to the Bishop of Rome.

Amber

 

[Big_Dummy]

This is an exercise in fultility since protestants, do not see themselves as seperate from one another(I Cor 12). We tend to look at what unites us like the five solas, who god is, the gospel, death and resurrection of Jesus, so on. Our general attitude is in Major Theology unity in minor disputed doctrine agape. You would be better served by listing what we all agree on, then listing the very few things we disagree on in Love.

Agree on:

Five Solas.
Trinity
Jesus – fully God, fully Man, atonement, resurrection.

Disagree on:

When Jesus will return
Covenant vs Dispensationalism — most don’t even understand the differences.
Spiritual Gifts – sign gifts vs gifts being for all in church age.
Calvinism vs Free Will doctines – most dont’ even draw lines here, back burner issue for many.

Many Protestants do not even make a big deal of those minor theology and groups like King James Onlyist are not even taken seriously like they are flat earthers or something like that.

 

[Bluegoat]

What a denomination is is understood very differently. In a lot of cases it is just a form of the local church.

What to make of, say, Anglicans who are in Communion with Lutherans, or Old Catholics? Are these going to count a separate "denominations?

In any case, this is a futile question. If any Church does in fact comprise the visible Church, than all else are in error, no matter how few. If all are in some degree of error, than denominations are an inevitable but unfortunate reality. If the Church is meant to subsist entirely in local congregations, than the only sin in denominations is any claiming to be the “true Church” with power over all Christians.

 

[Nicea325]

Esdra:

But you do know that many Protestant Churches believe very similar things?

No offense,but this sounds like an attempt to justify divisions within Protestanism. Still does not matter if they believe in similar things; facts remain they are still separate entities.If they share similiar things,then why the need to separate and become an entire individual entity? :ehh:

 

[josephback]

Curiously, I seem to find the greatest angst regarding rome to be what has happened in her teachings since the Schism, though I understand that the Catholic position is that nothing has changed for 2000 years, except development of doctrine. I would suspect you would be insecure with that thinking if you felt that way.
Jon

Darn right I’d be insecure!..Ok I’ll bite. What teachings of Rome have changed since the Schism? Would Orthodoxy then be the one true Church? I can’t accept Orthodoxy’s position on the Pope…

 

[josephback]

Liberation Theology on one side and Traditional Catholicism on the other.

And that is before you start examining the beliefs of the individual Catholics.

Catholics are as diverse in their beliefs than Protestants are.

That criteria makes for over a thousand catholic denominations. All of which pay lip service, and sometimes more, to the Bishop of Rome.

Amber

I think it was Pope John Paul 2 who condemned Liberation Theology. Individual Catholics may dissent from the Magisterium, but that is a problem of catechesis and modernism, not the official teachings of the Church.

Can you substantiate your claim of 1,000 divisions in the Catholic Church, and are you insinuating that these people pay money directly to the bishop of Rome?

 

[josephback]

Really I thought there would be more respondents. But maybe I came across with the wrong attitude

Thanks to all who have been participating

 

[hn160]

I think it was Pope John Paul 2 who condemned Liberation Theology. Individual Catholics may dissent from the Magisterium, but that is a problem of catechesis and modernism, not the official teachings of the Church.

Can you substantiate your claim of 1,000 divisions in the Catholic Church, and are you insinuating that these people pay money directly to the bishop of Rome?

I believe that Vatican II ruined the Roman Catholic Church, before Vatican II, you knew where the RCC stood, now politicians and regular lay people and some clergy are not afraid to defy the official teachings of the RCC and still receive Communion.