How many denominations?

[bluelake]

Hi. We’re gonna have a little challenge. Some time ago I posted in the Apologetics forum seeking the true number of Protestant denominations. Six guidelines were laid out. This time we’re gonna change them a bit. The objective is to see how many non-Catholic theologies/groups there are out there. No personal insults please, but plenty of honest debate and introspection. The guidelines for a group are:

1. The group cannot be Catholic. In othere words the Catholic Church doesn’t count. We are measuring the number and diversity of non-Catholic groups against the absolute unity and teaching of the Holy Church.
2. The group must have a founder and a founding date. That is, it must have a founding personage or personages and it must have a date of beginning, that is the genesis of the movement.
3. Lastly, it must have a distinguishing feature or teaching which it will not compromise with others on. This can be anything. whether required immersion baptism, sabbath keeping, or whatever.

These guidelines signifigantly loosen the requirements for posting. It should be fun. Good luck!

I assume you are referring to Christain Churches.
It is a good thing to discuss doctrine and different traditions, however, we must be carefull not to judge each other. We all worship and adore the same Lord, Jesus Christ whom God has sent. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. one God.

Please read Mt.22:34-39 “The Greatest Commandment” give to us by Jesus.
This passage got my attention , Mt.7:1 “Do not judge, or you will be judged,
2. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the same measure
you use, it will be measured to you.”

We are also commanded to love one another.
God shows no favortism. Rom.2:11

God bless you,
bluelake

 

[bluelake]

Problem one, here, is the notion here, against the absolute unity and teaching of the Holy Church. Lutherans are not against unity and the teaching of the Holy Church. The Augsburg Confession makes that clear, and our acceptance of the early coucnils and three creeds is evidence of that. Where we differ with Rome is in areas we believe Rome is in error about that early teaching of the Church.

Historically, we view ourselves as part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, of which Christ is the founder. But if you are speaking about our Reformation era leaders, we would include Luther, Melanchthon, among others.

I guess, for us, that might be that the Augsburg Confession, its Apology, and the Small Catechism rightly reflect the truth of scripture and the faith. Otherwise, we have very much in common with Rome, and other things in common with Orthodoxy, and still others with other Reformation era communions.

I just hope it doesn’t deteriorate.

Jon

In the Augsburg Confession, does it read One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?
Catholic spelled with a small ‘c’ means universal.
I may be thinking of something else. It’s late and gramma’s getting tired.

God bless,
bluelake

 

[amber_lux]

are you insinuating that these people pay money directly to the bishop of Rome?

They claim an allegiance to the Bishop of Rome.
If you want to toss the Sedevacantists into the mix, you can at least double the numbers.

Amber

 

[Nicea325]

I believe that Vatican II ruined the Roman Catholic Church, before Vatican II, you knew where the RCC stood, now politicians and regular lay people and some clergy are not afraid to defy the official teachings of the RCC and still receive Communion.

The above statement is an opinion,not a fact. Vatican II did not ruin anything. Did it change doctrines? And politicians and many lay folks have always defied and rejected RCC teachings, it is nothing new.

 

[josephback]

I assume you are referring to Christain Churches.
It is a good thing to discuss doctrine and different traditions, however, we must be carefull not to judge each other. We all worship and adore the same Lord, Jesus Christ whom God has sent. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. one God.

Please read Mt.22:34-39 “The Greatest Commandment” give to us by Jesus.
This passage got my attention , Mt.7:1 “Do not judge, or you will be judged,
2. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the same measure
you use, it will be measured to you.”

We are also commanded to love one another.
God shows no favortism. Rom.2:11

God bless you,
bluelake

It was not my intention to judge anyone, although I might be triumphalistic. I have the zeal of a convert

 

[JonNC]

=josephback;8368092]Darn right I’d be insecure!..Ok I’ll bite. What teachings of Rome have changed since the Schism?

For me, the most significant is the understanding of Rome regarding the primacy of the pope.

Would Orthodoxy then be the one true Church?

I would contend that, without each other, neither can claim by themselves to be the one true Church.

I can’t accept Orthodoxy’s position on the Pope…

ISTM that their position regarding the pope is much more consistent with the early Church, as expressed at Nicea.

Jon

 

[Bluegoat]

Really I thought there would be more respondents. But maybe I came across with the wrong attitude

Thanks to all who have been participating

IME many Protestants are disinclines to respond to these threads trying to “prove” how many Protestant denominations there are, when it seems that the Catholics who start them don’t really appreciate the significance of them, or lack thereof, from a Protestant perspective.

 

[Big_Dummy]

No offense,but this sounds like an attempt to justify divisions within Protestanism. Still does not matter if they believe in similar things; facts remain they are still separate entities.If they share similiar things,then why the need to separate and become an entire individual entity? :ehh:

Yes, it does matter that they do believe the same things because protestants do not see themselves as divided. I have seen Baptists and Pentecostals worship together. And, they consider each other to be part of the body of Christ.

To us Protestants your whole straw man argument about denominations is just plain silliness.

Every Prostestant BY defininition Puts Christ first. All else is just window dressing.

 

[Big_Dummy]

Hi. We’re gonna have a little challenge. Some time ago I posted in the Apologetics forum seeking the true number of Protestant denominations. Six guidelines were laid out. This time we’re gonna change them a bit. The objective is to see how many non-Catholic theologies/groups there are out there. No personal insults please, but plenty of honest debate and introspection. The guidelines for a group are:

1. The group cannot be Catholic. In othere words the Catholic Church doesn’t count. We are measuring the number and diversity of non-Catholic groups against the absolute unity and teaching of the Holy Church.
2. The group must have a founder and a founding date. That is, it must have a founding personage or personages and it must have a date of beginning, that is the genesis of the movement.
3. Lastly, it must have a distinguishing feature or teaching which it will not compromise with others on. This can be anything. whether required immersion baptism, sabbath keeping, or whatever.

These guidelines signifigantly loosen the requirements for posting. It should be fun. Good luck!

Joe, have you ever read a passage of scripture and seen an insight you had not seen before? Does that new insight qualifies as a new division in faith?

 

[josephback]

Joe, have you ever read a passage of scripture and seen an insight you had not seen before? Does that new insight qualifies as a new division in faith?

1. Yes
2. Only if it goes against the revealed teachings of the Magisterium.

 

[JonNC]

Yes, it does matter that they do believe the same things because protestants do not see themselves as divided. I have seen Baptists and Pentecostals worship together. And, they consider each other to be part of the body of Christ.

News to me, my friend. While we may consider Baptists, etc. part of the body of Christ, that in no way means we aren’t divided. Unless, of course, the communions you mention now accept the augsburg Confession.

To us Protestants your whole straw man argument about denominations is just plain silliness.

Every Prostestant BY defininition Puts Christ first. All else is just window dressing.

No doubt all Christians, not just protestants, put Christ first. But the sacramental nature of baptism and the real presence is anything but window dressing.

Originally Posted by Nicea325
No offense,but this sounds like an attempt to justify divisions within Protestanism. Still does not matter if they believe in similar things; facts remain they are still separate entities.If they share similiar things,then why the need to separate and become an entire individual entity?

There are not justifications for division amongst western non-Catholic Christians, just like there are no justifications for the division between east and west. There is no justfication or any division within the Christian faith. That we are divided is sad evidence of sin, on the part of all Christians.

Jon

 

[bluelake]

Problem one, here, is the notion here, against the absolute unity and teaching of the Holy Church. Lutherans are not against unity and the teaching of the Holy Church. The Augsburg Confession makes that clear, and our acceptance of the early coucnils and three creeds is evidence of that. Where we differ with Rome is in areas we believe Rome is in error about that early teaching of the Church.

Historically, we view ourselves as part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, of which Christ is the founder. But if you are speaking about our Reformation era leaders, we would include Luther, Melanchthon, among others.

I guess, for us, that might be that the Augsburg Confession, its Apology, and the Small Catechism rightly reflect the truth of scripture and the faith. Otherwise, we have very much in common with Rome, and other things in common with Orthodoxy, and still others with other Reformation era communions.

I just hope it doesn’t deteriorate.

Jon

jon,
Great post. Very informative.
I like the passage in PS .138:13-18
God knew us while we were being formed in our mothers womb.
All of our days were numbered at that time.
The one gift God also has given to us, is the gift of ‘choice’.
As Christians we are saved by grace. We are also commanded by Christ
not to judge one another. Mt.22:34-39
having a personal relationship with The Lord comes first.

God bless,
bluelake

 

[Bluegoat]

News to me, my friend. While we may consider Baptists, etc. part of the body of Christ, that in no way means we aren’t divided. Unless, of course, the communions you mention now accept the augsburg Confession.

No doubt all Christians, not just protestants, put Christ first. But the sacramental nature of baptism and the real presence is anything but window dressing.

There are not justifications for division amongst western non-Catholic Christians, just like there are no justifications for the division between east and west. There is no justfication or any division within the Christian faith. That we are divided is sad evidence of sin, on the part of all Christians.

Jon

I think though it is true that many Protestants do see it this way. And local Christian body is a real representative of the Church. The bare essentials are not a long list. So from this perspective denominations have a much less important distinction that Catholics tend to want to give them.

 

[JonNC]

I think though it is true that many Protestants do see it this way. And local Christian body is a real representative of the Church. The bare essentials are not a long list. So from this perspective denominations have a much less important distinction that Catholics tend to want to give them.

Perhaps so, for some. I think it tends to be a different story for more doctrinal communions. It is also true that Catholics, at least here, tend to downplay the differences between them and the east. It does make for interesting conversation.

Jon

 

[Bluegoat]

Perhaps so, for some. I think it tends to be a different story for more doctrinal communions. It is also true that Catholics, at least here, tend to downplay the differences between them and the east. It does make for interesting conversation.

Jon

It’s a matter of degree to some extent. It’s pretty unusual i would say for Protestants to take the position that their bit of the Church is the “True Church” and that all others really are outside of it. To my mind doing that at all puts a different emphasis on the question of denominations. And yes Catholics in this do tend to play down the Orthodox question which from a Protestant perspective makes the claim of the unity of the Church a little less believable.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I can start with the Church I was baptized in.

Presbyterian Church

• Originally, Presbyterian Church founded in Scotland circa 1707 under the leadership of John Knox.

The Presbyterian Church today believes a lot of the same things as Evangelicals about Jesus/salvation, etc. and they believe in symbolic sacraments, though some do believe that they are intrinsically “spiritually beneficial” though few would go so far as to say they confer grace.

The Presbyterians are Calvinistic in their theology.

They do baptize infants and are one of the few denominations that does.

Within Presbyterianism there are two main branches in the United States:

1. Presbyterian Church of America (PCA) is conservative branch and typically opposes female clergy, gay marriage, and abortion.
2. Presbyterian Church USA (PCUSA) is a liberal branch and typically supports abortion, female and gay clergy, and gay marriage.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Lutheran Church

Founded in 1517 by Martin Luther.

It is distinguished from other protestant churches by its strong liturgical tradition and a high view of both church and the sacraments. They believe in baptismal regeneration, and that Holy Communion is a means of grace. Many believe in a sort of “consubstantiation” where Jesus is spiritually present “in and around” the communion species.

LCMS and WELS practice closed communion while ELCA practices open communion. LCMS and WELS have male-only clergy and ELCA allows female clergy. LCMS and WELS oppose gay marriage and abortion (typically; from what I understand) and ELCA has a variety of views on these matters.

 

[cooterhein]

Many believe in a sort of “consubstantiation” where Jesus is spiritually present “in and around” the communion species.

Lutherans believe in the “Sacramental Union”- and this does involve a description of a spiritual presence in, with, and under- but this is done while denying substance theory as it was developed in medieval Europe.

The theory of consubstantiation begins with this sort of substance theory and proceeds from there, just like transubstantiation does. The only difference is that consubstantiation leaves you with two immaterial spirit-like substances while transubstantiation gets rid of one and replaces it with another. “Sacramental Union” departs from this sort of substance theory, however, so it’s not really a sort of consubstantiation. If you’re a Lutheran, there is no substance/accident dichotomy, and there’s no immaterial substance to speak of at all- much less two of them hidden by “accidents.”

It would actually be more accurate to say this: Catholics believe in the doctrine of transubstantiation, which is a sort of “consubstantiation.” Consubstantiation gives you two hidden substances, and transubstantiation takes it down to one. The Lutheran belief in the RP eliminates the substance thing entirely and takes it down to zero.

 

[Nicea325]

It’s a matter of degree to some extent. It’s pretty unusual i would say for Protestants to take the position that their bit of the Church is the “True Church” and that all others really are outside of it. To my mind doing that at all puts a different emphasis on the question of denominations. And yes Catholics in this do tend to play down the Orthodox question which from a Protestant perspective makes the claim of the unity of the Church a little less believable.

Catholics downplay the Orthodox? Give an example of downplaying? No offense,but the comment seems rather biased and a generalization.

 

[Bluegoat]

Catholics downplay the Orthodox? Give an example of downplaying? No offense,but the comment seems rather biased and a generalization.

In conversations with Protestants, they tend to ignore the Great Schism altogether, or assume they are much closer theologically to the Orthodox than is the case, saying the rift is “just a small political disagreement” or something like that. They also tend to ignore the theological implications that it is possible to be in schism without being “outside” the Church.