How many deny Jesus Christ in the Eucharist?

[rinnie]

Every year after lent I am taught something very important. This time for some reason I could not get my mind off of the Eucharist.

John 6:66 (the devils numbers) That blows my mind.

Did anyone ever really make that connection. That is the scripture where the disciples that could not accept the true teaching that Jesus Christ in the Eucharist is the living Christ left Jesus and walked away.

Judas comes to mind. It was Judas that was one of his Apostles and left Jesus. Did you notice when he left him. At the Eucharist!!! Judas could not accept that teaching.

As a kid me and my brother when we were first beginning to drive would go to Church and split right after communion. My Dad would always say are you like Judas are you going to leave right after the Eucharist

I never really understood until years later what he was saying. Trust me I stay now!!

Jesus was quite clear when he stated For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. John 6:53-56)

Even the disciples said this is a hard saying who can listen to it? See Jesus knew some would not believe. This is where Judas fell away. John 6:64.

Many say he was speaking sybolically. But he wasn’t. If so both the Jews who were suspicious of him and the disciples who accepted everything up to this point would have remained with him if he were.

But he did not correct the protesters.

12 times he said he was the bread that came down from heaven.

4 times he said he said they would have to eat my flesh and drink my blood.

Who can really accept this teaching? Can you?

We as Roman Catholic’s are not just symbolically commemorating Jesus in the Eucharist we are actually participating in his body and blood as Paul tells us.

The cup of blessing which we bless, IS IT NOT a participation in the blood of Christ. The bread which we bread, IS IT NOT a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor 10:16)

Jesus said DO THIS in memory of me!! Do This!!!

 

[Joshua27]

Every year after lent I am taught something very important. This time for some reason I could not get my mind off of the Eucharist.

John 6:66 (the devils numbers)

Did anyone ever really make that connection. That is the scripture where the disciples that could not accept the true teaching that Jesus Christ in the Eucharist is the living Christ left Jesus and walked away.

Judas comes to mind. It was Judas that was one of his Apostles and left Jesus. Did you notice when he left him. At the Eucharist!!! Judas could not accept that teaching.

As a kid me and my brother when we were first beginning to drive would go to Church and split right after communion. My Dad would always say are you like Judas are you going to leave right after the Eucharist

I never really understood until years later what he was saying. Trust me I stay now!!

Jesus was quite clear when he stated For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. John 6:53-56)

Even the disciples said this is a hard saying who can listen to it? See Jesus knew some would not believe. This is where Judas fell away. John 6:64.

Many say he was speaking sybolically. But he wasn’t. If so both the Jews who were suspicious of him and the disciples who accepted everything up to this point would have remained with him if he were.

But he did not correct the protesters.

12 times he said he was the bread that came down from heaven.

4 times he said he said they would have to eat my flesh and drink my blood.

Who can really accept this teaching? Can you?

We as Roman Catholic’s are not just symbolically commemorating Jesus in the Eucharist we are actually participating in his body and blood as Paul tells us.

The cup of blessing which we bless, IS IT NOT a participation in the blood of Christ. The bread which we bread, IS IT NOT a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor 10:16)

Jesus said DO THIS in memory of me!! Do This!!!

John 6:66 is indeed very interesting; “fallen men” choosing against the Words of Christ for their own understanding in the very verse that reflects their number.

…And I know that the Eucharist is the cornerstone of the Roman Catholic faith, but can one really discuss the events of the last supper and Christ’s passion without truly understanding the Israelite Passover as well as the Jewish Feast of Unleavened Bread? Just “why” does Christ (and others) call Him the “lamb”?

---

"Passover" was never a Holy Day ordained by God

…it was an act/task/job (action verb) of “slaughtering a lamb” on the day before the feast; on a day called Preparation Day…which was the last work day before the High Sabbath (Feast Day).

Often when “Passover” (Pesach) was used in Hebrew speech (as recorded in the bible), it was an adjective of the lamb that was to be “slaughtered” and “consumed” by fire (cooked for a day).

During the TRUE Holy Feast of God: Chag HaMazot (Feast of Unleavened Bread), on the very next day; the day AFTER Preparation Day, the prepared lamb (characterized as “passover”/pesach/“slaughtered”) was “consumed” by mouth with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.

The lamb was not to be eated - prior to the Holy Feast Day - on Preparation Day, the exact night of Christ’s last supper…but was the day the lamb was sacrificed and prepared.

---

Christ prepares to eat his last supper with his disciples; an ordinary supper meal during the evening BEFORE God’s ordained Holy Feast Day: Unleavened Bread. Christ even said he wished to eat the passover (adjective; “slaughtered lamb”) with the disciples but would not any more [recall that he already ate a passover at an earlier Feast of Unleavened Bread, earlier in his ministry] until in his kingdom (Luke 22:15).

Christ simply established his Last Supper as a memorial serivice to remember what Christ was ABOUT to do…It is NOT a “sacrifice” to be repeated every Sunday.

[Hebrews 10:10] By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

(11) And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

(12) But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,

(13) from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.

(14) For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

(15) But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,

(16) “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”

(17) then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

(18) Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

---

The fact that it was a supper - not a religous feast or event - shows that we can hold this memorial at any evening supper/meal. This is what Paul meant by “…as often as you do this you show [meaning “remember”] Christ’s death until he comes.” (1 Corinthians 10:26) This also explains what Paul is reprimanding the assembly at Corinth about: They were taking their own plates of food (without “sharing”), they were getting drunk, no one was washing each other’s feet, etc. In other words, they were treating it like any other meal instead of a memorial.

So I deny that Christ is in the Eucharist, because Christ is already sacrificed and here in His living tabernacles…us.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

How many deny Jesus Christ in the Eucharist?

Not I.

Joshua, you seem to have a misunderstanding (very common BTW) of what the Church teaches about the Eucharist. Some of your highlighted words from Hebrews: “once, one sacrifice, forever” are all things that a Catholic, with a proper understanding of the Church’s teaching, would agree with. The sacrifice of Mass, the Eucharist, is the “memorial of Christ’s passover, making present and the sacramental offering of his unique sacrifice” (CCC 1362). The “once and for all” sacrifice which Hebrews talks about.

You may certainly disagree with this but take time to understand the teaching you disagree with.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a3.htm#I

God bless you Joshua

 

[blazerdave]

4 times he said he said they would have to eat my flesh and drink my blood.

Who can really accept this teaching? Can you?

By God’s grace, through the truth of His Word, and with the illumination of the Spirit, I accept it gladly.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

John 6:66 is indeed very interesting; “fallen men” choosing against the Words of Christ for their own understanding in the very verse that reflects their number.

So I deny that Christ is in the Eucharist, because Christ is already sacrificed and here in His living tabernacles…us.

My dear brother Joshua did you know St. Stephen the first Christian Martyr who was stoned by his own Jewish People for preaching and believing Jesus true presence in the Eucharist? And from his recorded discourse if you were to see St.Stephen’s speech, that he was using Moses and prophets to reveal that God never desired to what you think you believe in the Jewish Passover, for this he was stoned.

So are you going to stone my 2000 year old Catholic faith in believing in Jesus true presence, with your 2000 year old Jewish disbelief?

If Jesus living body, blood soul and divinity is in you; then why is Jesus “standing” in heaven as a lamb as though slain" (Apocalypse 5:6) do you know why Jesus is standing their?

So when God commanded his Old Covenant people to bring into remembrance all these things he revealed in the passover and to keep it as a perpetual law, you continue to obey God’s biblical commandment to sacrifice a lamb for your passover, because Jesus is in you? How does your Jesus suffice this perpetual law commandment that must be celebrated perpetually.

So your telling me that your Christianity like the Old covenant only suffices the powers and principalities, but not God, because God never desired flesh of animals, he never desired blood from bulls and goats, none of these could ever suffice God, only the natural law. What God desired you or I could never give “a body you prepared for me” a perfect sacrifice in his son. Did you know that the passover never ceased in itself but always placed an obligation on the first born?

Jesus is that first born; Do you know what the perpetual law dictates in the passover? “you must consume the sacrificial lamb” If you think Jesus is in you already, then how are you obeying God’s commandment “to do this in rememberance of me”? without the true lamb sacrifice and then eat it, not just the lamb but with unleavened bread and wine. Tell me do you eat unleavened bread and wine with your lamb?

The Mass suffices the perpetual laws not just the passover in the lamb who takes away the sin of the world, in his Eucharist which we offer these gifts of unleavened bread and wine, which God takes them, to become his body, blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ “a body you prepared for me”.

You know what else follows a law in God’s covenant? blessings and cursings; Here is a curse if a believer does not discern the True presence of Jesus Christ in his Eucharist; Why does God’s word from the new testament put a curse on someone if they don’t discern the Eucharist? Could Jesus really be present? How can God place a curse on symbolic Jesus, or on crackers and grape juice?

I Cor.1 Corinthians 11: 23 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread,
24 and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.
28 A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup.
29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.
30 That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying

Must be more to this Eucharist, you would think?

Peace be with you

 

[Joshua27]

My dear brother Joshua did you know St. Stephen the first Christian Martyr who was stoned by his own Jewish People for preaching and believing Jesus true presence in the Eucharist? And from his recorded discourse if you were to see St.Stephen’s speech, that he was using Moses and prophets to reveal that God never desired to what you think you believe in the Jewish Passover, for this he was stoned.

So are you going to stone my 2000 year old Catholic faith in believing in Jesus true presence, with your 2000 year old Jewish disbelief?

Well, with respect, I’d rather stone a belief than to stone a living person any day.

If Jesus living body, blood soul and divinity is in you; then why is Jesus “standing” in heaven as a lamb as though slain" (Apocalypse 5:6) do you know why Jesus is standing their?

[Revelation/Apocalypse 1:1] The “revelation” (vision/prophesy) of Christ, which God gave to Him…

This is a vision…not unlike the prophet Daniel’s visions in Babylon. In fact, before we get to Revelation 5:6, please read the following:

[Revelation 4:2] And immediately I was in the spirit…

Ezekiel - another prophet like John and Daniel - also used a similar figure of speech when he had his vision…

[Ezekiel 37:1] The hand of the Lord was upon me and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord…

So when God commanded his Old Covenant people to bring into remembrance all these things he revealed in the passover and to keep it as a perpetual law, you continue to obey God’s biblical commandment to sacrifice a lamb for your passover, because Jesus is in you? How does your Jesus suffice this perpetual law commandment that must be celebrated perpetually.

You must understand the process of attonement…

Every household head was to select a lamb 1 year old (without blemish or broken bone) and present him before the alter. Before handing it over to the High Priest, the head’s hands were to be laid on the sacrifice (to exchange the household’s corrupted life for the lamb’s innocent life).

The lamb - which is now corrupt (because innocence was exchanged) is violently killed and sacrificed.

Christ became the ultimate sacrifice through the same process, which is why we confess our sins ONTO him (forshadowed by the “laying of hands” on the lamb during the ritual) in EXCHANGE for his innocence, transferred ONTO us indefinitely.

Did you know that the passover never ceased in itself but always placed an obligation on the first born?

The old sacrifices were sufficient, but they were only temporary (non-perpetual), shadow-pictures of the true sacrifice that was to come from Christ. God didn’t send his Son because our sacrifices weren’t good enough…animal sacrifices were made to prophesy the fulfillment of Christ’s ultimate sacrifice, which (agreed) never ceased, so there’s no need to repeat what never stopped.

Jesus is that first born; Do you know what the perpetual law dictates in the passover? “you must consume the sacrificial lamb” If you think Jesus is in you already, then how are you obeying God’s commandment “to do this in rememberance of me”? without the true lamb sacrifice and then eat it, not just the lamb but with unleavened bread and wine. Tell me do you eat unleavened bread and wine with your lamb?

Again “passover” is not the “Holy Feast”. During the Holy Feast, truly we must consume the sacrificial lamb. But didn’t you know that you are the temple? The living tabernacle? In you is everything that was within the tabernacle, even the alter. So in your belief in Christ’s sacrifice, you - in effect - “consume” Christ in the fire of your spirit, thus no lamb is needed when eating unleavened bread during the High Sabbath feast day.

…“a body you prepared for me”.

My answer:

[Hebrews 10:5] Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared [past tense] for me;

(Q) Who is quoted saying this by Paul, Gabriel?
(A) Christ is the one speaking.

(Q) Who is Christ talking to?
(A) God.

This body is not the bread and wine, but his own body, given to him by the Father, to be sacrificed once and for all.

Here is a curse if a believer does not discern the True presence of Jesus Christ in his Eucharist [bread and wine];

27** Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.
28 A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup.
29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning** the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.
30 That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying

Must be more to this Eucharist, you would think?

Peace be with you

To discern = “To perceive, recognize, or comprehend [something] with the mind”…

So those who do not “recognize” meaning behind the bread and wine (automatically) cause judgement on themselves when taken.

…Hmm… you bring to light something very interesting, Gabriel. I wonder how many people - who faithfully take Holy Communion “every” Sunday (which also isn’t the correct day for preparation day/pesach/passover, BTW) - are sick with cancers or diseases, become disabled, and die?

How many do you think consume the Eucharist AND become subject to these infirmities, Gabriel? There are well over 1 billion Catholics in the world (over 1/6 of the world’s population), and interstingly enough, cancer is rapant, deaths abound, maladies & sicknesses run amuck.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

This is a vision…not unlike the prophet Daniel’s visions in Babylon. In fact, before we get to Revelation 5:6, please read the following:

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

You must understand the process of attonement…

I have the mind of Christ, not the mind of God. I don’t know what is worse? the one who is disobedient to God? or the one who rejects God?

 

[Joshua27]

Wait a minute Joshua, before we enter into the Covenant mysteries of God, we will always miss each other in discussion if we don’t get this one thing straight here;

Spirit; When is Spirit in the bible ever to be believed in a symbolic way? Who has told you that the Spirit in scripture is never a reality?

Do you think because John and Ezekiel and others because they are in the Spirit, that it was’nt real?

The Spirit is eternal, the Spirit is more real than you and I in the flesh, because our flesh goes back to dust, whereby the Spirit is eternal. Besides the Holy Spirit is a person.

Before I rant on here, what is your definition of Spirit in the bible?

I believe once we get past this point, we can discuss understand these great mysteries of God.

If you believe the Spirit from scriptures is speaking symbolically then, this discussion cannnot deal with the Spiritual realities described in Spiritual ways. We will have to discuss them from a carnal perspective on the milk per say until we are mature enough to eat meat.

What say you Joshua?

I’d hate to deviate from the topic of discussion but for the sake of understanding where i’m coming from, you’re right, It IS important to define this term:

No. I also believe spirit is real and not symbolic. But “Is it more real than the physical?” No. I’d say it’s equally as real. ‘What is in heaven so must be on earth.’ A reflection. (Matthew 18:18 and Matthew 6:10)

Spirit (Ruach) = Breath; Life; Wind; Animus; the Power. It doesn’t mean “ghost” (as some incorrectly define it as)…*.

[Genesis 2:7] God formed man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life

into the man’s nostrils, and the man became a living person (soul).

Both body & spirit marries together to form a soul (living person)…so when our bodies return to dust the spirit [His “breath of life”] return back to God.

[Ecclesiastes 12:7] For then the dust will return to the earth, and the [breath] will return to God who gave it.

---

[Revelation 1:10] On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit

, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet…

Question: How can John be “in the spirit” before being greeted by a voice like a trumpet? Was he floating above his body (of “spirit” means “ghost”) or was he in prayer and meditation?

[John 4:24] For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth

."

You and I worship God everyday through prayer. Are we physically carried away? No…but (truly) we are in the spirit at the moment of communication; in prayer and meditation.*

 

[JonNC]

Every year after lent I am taught something very important. This time for some reason I could not get my mind off of the Eucharist.

John 6:66 (the devils numbers) That blows my mind.

Did anyone ever really make that connection. That is the scripture where the disciples that could not accept the true teaching that Jesus Christ in the Eucharist is the living Christ left Jesus and walked away.

Judas comes to mind. It was Judas that was one of his Apostles and left Jesus. Did you notice when he left him. At the Eucharist!!! Judas could not accept that teaching.

As a kid me and my brother when we were first beginning to drive would go to Church and split right after communion. My Dad would always say are you like Judas are you going to leave right after the Eucharist

I never really understood until years later what he was saying. Trust me I stay now!!

Jesus was quite clear when he stated For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. John 6:53-56)

Even the disciples said this is a hard saying who can listen to it? See Jesus knew some would not believe. This is where Judas fell away. John 6:64.

Many say he was speaking sybolically. But he wasn’t. If so both the Jews who were suspicious of him and the disciples who accepted everything up to this point would have remained with him if he were.

But he did not correct the protesters.

12 times he said he was the bread that came down from heaven.

4 times he said he said they would have to eat my flesh and drink my blood.

Who can really accept this teaching? Can you?

We as Roman Catholic’s are not just symbolically commemorating Jesus in the Eucharist we are actually participating in his body and blood as Paul tells us.

The cup of blessing which we bless, IS IT NOT a participation in the blood of Christ. The bread which we bread, IS IT NOT a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor 10:16)

Jesus said DO THIS in memory of me!! Do This!!!

From the Aology of the Augsburg Confession

The Tenth Article has been approved, in which **we confess that we believe, that in the Lord’s Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered, with those things which are seen, bread and wine, to those who receive the Sacrament. **This belief we constantly defend, as the subject has been carefully examined and considered. For since Paul says, 1 Cor. 10:16, that the bread is the communion of the Lord’s body, etc., it would follow, if the Lord’s body were not truly present, that the bread is not a communion of the body, but only of the spirit of Christ. 55] And we have ascertained that not only the Roman Church affirms the bodily presence of Christ, but the Greek Church also both now believes, and formerly believed, the same. For the canon of the Mass among them testifies to this, in which the priest clearly prays that the bread may be changed and become the very body of Christ. And Vulgarius, who seems to us to be not a silly writer, says distinctly that bread is not a mere figure, but 56] is truly changed into flesh. And there is a long exposition of Cyril on John 15, in which he teaches that Christ is corporeally offered us in the Supper. For he says thus: Nevertheless, we do not deny that we are joined spiritually to Christ by true faith and sincere love. But that we have no mode of connection with Him, according to the flesh, this indeed we entirely deny. And this, we say, is altogether foreign to the divine Scriptures. For who has doubted that Christ is in this manner a vine, and we the branches, deriving thence life for ourselves? Hear Paul saying 1 Cor. 10:17; Rom. 12:5; Gal. 3:28: We are all one body in Christ; although we are many, we are, nevertheless, one in Him; for we are, all partakers of that one bread. Does he perhaps think that the virtue of the mystical benediction is unknown to us? Since this is in us, does it not also, by the communication of Christ’s flesh, cause Christ to dwell in us bodily? And a little after: Whence we must consider that Christ is in us not only according to the habit, which we call love, 57] but also by natural participation, etc. We have cited these testimonies, not to undertake a discussion here concerning this subject, for His Imperial Majesty does not disapprove of this article, but in order that all who may read them may the more clearly perceive that we defend the doctrine received in the entire Church, that in the Lord’s Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered with those things which are seen, bread and wine. And we speak of the presence of the living Christ [living body]; for we know that death hath no more dominion over Him, Rom. 6:9.

Jon

 

[Nicea325]

John 6:66 is indeed very interesting; “fallen men” choosing against the Words of Christ for their own understanding in the very verse that reflects their number.

…And I know that the Eucharist is the cornerstone of the Roman Catholic faith, but can one really discuss the events of the last supper and Christ’s passion without truly understanding the Israelite Passover as well as the Jewish Feast of Unleavened Bread? Just “why” does Christ (and others) call Him the “lamb”?

---

"Passover" was never a Holy Day ordained by God

…it was an act/task/job (action verb) of “slaughtering a lamb” on the day before the feast; on a day called Preparation Day…which was the last work day before the High Sabbath (Feast Day).

Often when “Passover” (Pesach) was used in Hebrew speech (as recorded in the bible), it was an adjective of the lamb that was to be “slaughtered” and “consumed” by fire (cooked for a day).

During the TRUE Holy Feast of God: Chag HaMazot (Feast of Unleavened Bread), on the very next day; the day AFTER Preparation Day, the prepared lamb (characterized as “passover”/pesach/“slaughtered”) was “consumed” by mouth with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.

The lamb was not to be eated - prior to the Holy Feast Day - on Preparation Day, the exact night of Christ’s last supper…but was the day the lamb was sacrificed and prepared.

---

Christ prepares to eat his last supper with his disciples; an ordinary supper meal during the evening BEFORE God’s ordained Holy Feast Day: Unleavened Bread. Christ even said he wished to eat the passover (adjective; “slaughtered lamb”) with the disciples but would not any more [recall that he already ate a passover at an earlier Feast of Unleavened Bread, earlier in his ministry] until in his kingdom (Luke 22:15).

Christ simply established his Last Supper as a memorial serivice to remember what Christ was ABOUT to do…It is NOT a “sacrifice” to be repeated every Sunday.

---

The fact that it was a supper - not a religous feast or event - shows that we can hold this memorial at any evening supper/meal. This is what Paul meant by “…as often as you do this you show [meaning “remember”] Christ’s death until he comes.” (1 Corinthians 10:26) This also explains what Paul is reprimanding the assembly at Corinth about: They were taking their own plates of food (without “sharing”), they were getting drunk, no one was washing each other’s feet, etc. In other words, they were treating it like any other meal instead of a memorial.

So I deny that Christ is in the Eucharist, because Christ is already sacrificed and here in His living tabernacles…us.

If Jesus only meant it to be symbolic,then explain to me why Jesus never used the term to ‘symbolic’ or to ‘represent’ His Body? If I am correct, Jesus could have used at least a dozen words to mean ‘symbolic’ or ‘represents’ from Aramaic, but he never does.

Likewise,when Jesus explains something and the people misunderstood,did he explain it in order for them to comprehend Him? Yes or No? Now why would he leave it up to us to determine whether he spoke symbolically or literally? Something so vital for our salvation and leaves us second guessing? I do not think so!

More important,when ever God makes a declaration: Let there be light,etc,etc it HAPPENS and it is what it is. So if Jesus IS God and said: This IS my Body,then it is His Body, not a mere symbol.

I find it amazing how so many Bible-Only folks take the Bible literal,but claim John 6 is merely symbolic? Why? Because it conflicts with their novel traditions?

Finally, sorry to burst your bubble,but early church does not teach it was symbolic. Show me ONE early church writer outside the NT claiming it was ONLY symbolic? History says the opposite.If it were symbolic,then millions upon of millions for centuries would be guilt of worshiping an idol or something false.

Your belief is novel and history has proven it over and over.

 

[Joshua27]

Very well put Joshua; So when do you eat the sacrificial lamb?

Indeed once you pray and meditated on confessing and repenting your sins (in the spirit) and then meditate on Christ’s sacrifice for those sins (in the spirit), you -truly - have consumed the lamb in the spirit.

So when God says in old covenant “to do in remembrance”, and Jesus tells his apostles at the last supper “do this in rememberance of me” God is saying to repeat this ritual from the old and new covenants or is he saying “zakar” in these I myself will be present to my people? How can one repeat something that is of the Spirit (Eternal)?

Well…Christ also said to his disciples, “remember the woman” who annointed him whenever we share the gospel with someone, but I hardly ever hear anyone speak of her. My point is, there are laws, convenants/contracts (based on the law), and then there are memorials…all of which have their place just like the similar ones in our society. It’s not a law to honor The Lincoln Memorial for instance, but the law Lincoln helped established (outlawing slavery) must be honored…memorialized/recalled/remembered when viewing his statue.

We remember Christ sacrifice through the last supper out of love, and I’m by no means saying it’s sinful or wrong to do. I’m arguing that, to also believe partaking in that meal is an “actual, repeatable” act of sacrificing Christ once again (to wash away sins today; here and now) is incorrect. I love everyone who would continue to honor the memory of Christ’s act because (indeed) it was THE act…but as being THE act, it can never be repeated nor duplicated.

So when God says in old covenant “to do in remembrance”, and Jesus tells his apostles at the last supper “do this in rememberance of me” God is saying to repeat this ritual from the old and new covenants or is he saying “zakar” in these I myself will be present to my people? How can one repeat something that is of the Spirit (Eternal)?

Prior to Christ, we were dead, right? And yet we lived - every day. Christ called death “sleep”…“Let the dead bury the dead”, he said. How is it that we can repeatedly sleep every night and awaken every morning and yet still be dead in spirit? Aren’t we repeating something of the spirit [spiritual death] every night during slumber?

You don’t have the Passover confused with the Sabbath do you?

Every feast day ordained by God was considered also a Sabbath, called a High Sabbath (or “High Day”)…this is in addition to the weekly Sabbaths. Particularly, the High Sabbath of Unleavened Bread commenced the eating of the passover (“slaughtered lamb”), prepared on Preparation Day (not a sabbath):

[Mark 15:42] And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath

[Luke 23:54] And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

[John 19:14] And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

[John 19:31] The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that [NEXT] sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their [Christ’s and the Criminals] legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Why did Paul and others teach this eating of bread and wine in the body,blood of Jesus Christ from scripture and you say we don’t have too?

Paul does not command the church to do this but is responding to what he hears happening at the church of Corinth:

[1 Corinthians 11:18] For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

…Paul is correcting them and showing them that - throughout his instructions concerning Christ’s supper - that (conversely) they are acting selfishly at the table (completely against the nature of Christ). Paul then finishes his correction with this passage:

[1 Corinthians 11:33] Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry [wait] one for another.

 

[UnworthyApostle]

“For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation or OFFERING: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.”-Malachi 1:11

“Moreover, as I said before, concerning the sacrifices which you at that time offered, God speaks through Malachias, one of the twelve, as follows: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices from your hands; for from the rising of the sun until its setting, my name has been glorified among the gentiles; and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a clean offering: for great is my name among the gentiles, says the Lord; but you profane it.’ It is of the sacrifices offered to Him in every place by us, the gentiles, that is, of the Bread of the Eucharist and likewise of the cup of the Eucharist”-Justin Martyr

The strong sacrificial language here from scripture and a church father shows how the literal presence must be true. For how can one sacrafice just bread or a mere symbol? We all know scripture speaks of the final sacrafice of Christ on the cross. Yet,here a prophet has said that a sacarfice shall be given to be God among the Gentiles. How does one reconcile the two seemingly contradictory statements?
Let St.John Chrysostom speak:
“We always offer the same oblation: therefore it is one sacrifice. . . . Christ is everywhere one, entire in this place and that, one body . . . and so, one sacrifice. . . . We offer now what was offered then, an inexhaustible offering. . . . We offer the same sacrifice: or rather we make a memorial of that sacrifice.”
( Homilies on Hebrews 3.17)
The church PARTICIPATES in the one sacrafice of Christ that is ETERNAL and BEYOND TIME in the temporal reality of our planet. The crucifixion of Christ was a one time affair temporally, but the sacrafice remains eternal.
Chrysostom also said:
“It is not the power of man which MAKES what is put before us the Body and Blood of Christ, but the power of Christ Himself who was crucified for us. The priest standing there (IN PERSONA CHRISTI) says these words but their power and grace are from God. ‘This is My Body,’ he says, and these words TRANSFORM what lies before him.”
Notice latin root -trans as in transubstantiation. Trans indicates a change into something else.Therefore, as the church has and always will declare, Christ is truly present in the Eucharist by body,blood,soul,and divinity.

 

[Joshua27]

If Jesus only meant it to be symbolic,then explain to me why Jesus never used the term to ‘symbolic’ or to ‘represent’ His Body? If I am correct, Jesus could have used at least a dozen words to mean ‘symbolic’ or ‘represents’ from Aramaic, but he never does.

Likewise,when Jesus explains something and the people misunderstood,did he explain it in order for them to comprehend Him? Yes or No? Now why would he leave it up to us to determine whether he spoke symbolically or literally? Something so vital for our salvation and leaves us second guessing? I do not think so!

More important,when ever God makes a declaration: Let there be light,etc,etc it HAPPENS and it is what it is. So if Jesus IS God and said: This IS my Body,then it is His Body, not a mere symbol.

I find it amazing how so many Bible-Only folks take the Bible literal,but claim John 6 is merely symbolic? Why? Because it conflicts with their novel traditions?

Finally, sorry to burst your bubble,but early church does not teach it was symbolic. Show me ONE early church writer outside the NT claiming it was ONLY symbolic? History says the opposite.If it were symbolic,then millions upon of millions for centuries would be guilt of worshiping an idol or something false.

Your belief is novel and history has proven it over and over.

It is not symbolic. Since when was the Spiritual considered NOT real!?

It was Real and it was Spiritual (this is not a paradox)…but the most important point I want to emphasize is "It was already done for you on that day."

THIS is why OUR partaking of it is now a memorial, because it was already performed back then. Christ has already sacrificed himself for you; us. There is no additional work required on our part (once we’ve laid our sins on the lamb) but to thank Him by remembering what he has done.

Note: Christ is speaking to his disciples about something that was about to soon occur (present tense) back then, that they would see happen. Today, our reckoning of it is past tense. But we are stuck in a time loop of sin because we can’t accept that we have already been saved, and sanctified (if we laid our sins onto the lamb).

It is a lie; a subtle deception by our enemy to believe that we have to sacrifice Christ over and over, of which the repeated act suggests that the original act wasn’t good enough.

The Son NOW sits at the right hand of the Father, doesn’t he? He’s not on the alter anymore, correct? He now sits at the right hand of all power and glory, waiting until his enemies are made his footstool.

But think about this: who is the only one who’d revel in Christ, the Son of God, reliving and resuffering the most painful and agonizing moment in his life, but the only one who caused the conditions that required Christ to make this sacrifice in the first place?

See.

…But to answer your question about people misunderstanding, here’s what Christ said to his close disciples…

[Matthew 13:10] The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

1. He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

1. Whoever has [the truth] will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

[John 16:25] I have said these things to you in figurative language. The time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly about the Father.

…So not everyone was supposed to know at the same time.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

It is a lie; a subtle deception by our enemy to believe that we have to sacrifice Christ over and over, of which the repeated act suggests that the original act wasn’t good enough.

Again Joshua you have an incorrect understanding of the Church’s teaching. Please see my post #3 and read the link. Even if you still disagree with the teaching at least it will be the correct teaching that you disagree with. The Church does not teach that Christ is sacrificed “over and over” again. Nor does it teach that Christ’s “once and for all” sacrifice was not “good enough”. These are strawmen arguments. Christ’s sacrifice was eternal. This is why John, in Revelation, sees Christ, " as though it (He) had been slain" (Rev. 5:6)

God bless you Joshua

 

[Joshua27]

Again Joshua you have an incorrect understanding of the Church’s teaching. Please see my post #3 and read the link. Even if you still disagree with the teaching at least it will be the correct teaching that you disagree with. The Church does not teach that Christ is sacrificed “over and over” again. Nor does it teach that Christ’s “once and for all” sacrifice was not “good enough”. These are strawmen arguments. Christ’s sacrifice was eternal. This is why John, in Revelation, sees Christ, " as though it (He) had been slain" (Rev. 5:6)

God bless you Joshua

I understand what you’re saying, but what the church teaches and what others have said are two completely different things…and those are the people I’m correcting. My comments are to those who make this conclusion.

Not once have I said “church”. I am talking to believers, who believe in something incorrect.

Note what you said: "‘once, one sacrifice, forever’ are all things that a Catholic, with a proper understanding of the Church’s teaching, would agree with".

Then the very fact that I am still here arguing my point means that there are those believers who do not have a proper understanding of the Church’s teaching, correct?

—Here’s an edit to my post just to show you I did link to it—

1362 The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ’s Passover, the making present and the sacramental offering of his unique sacrifice, in the liturgy of the Church which is his Body. In all the Eucharistic Prayers we find after the words of institution a prayer called the anamnesis or memorial.

…However the following is what I’ve been accurately arguing against…

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ’s Passover, -]the Eucharist is also a sacrifice/-]. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: “This is my body which is given for you” and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."187 In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hi Joshua you raised some interesting insights of the Spirit; What do you think of the following scriptures all relating to the Jewish Passover and the Eucharist; Hey did you know that Eucharistia = Thanksgiving? You know this is what Catholics are doing when we worship in Spirit (who changes the bread and wine into the body,blood soul and divinity) and Truth because Jesus is truly present to us in his body, blood soul and divinity.

Jesus passover ends in the “it is finished” our new covenant Passover cannot begin until we eat the sacrificial lamb of God so as to passover from death into eternal life;

John 19: 30 When Jesus had taken the wine, he said, “It is finished.” And bowing his head, he handed over the spirit.

1Cor.5: 7 Clear out the old yeast, so that you may become a fresh batch of dough, inasmuch as you are unleavened.** For our paschal lamb, Christ, has been sacrificed**.
8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but** with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.**

1Cor.10: 16 **The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? **17 Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.
18 Look at Israel according to the flesh; are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar? **
19 So what am I saying? That meat sacrificed to idols is anything? Or that an idol is anything?
20 No, I mean that what they sacrifice, (they sacrifice) to demons, 8 not to God, and I do not want you to become participants with demons.
21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and also the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and of the table of demons.
22 Or are we provoking the Lord to jealous anger? Are we stronger than he? **

John 6: 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."

52 **The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?” **

53 **Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54 Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. **

Can you describe your worship service, how Jesus is made present to you and your community? thanks:thumbsup:

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

It is not symbolic. Since when was the Spiritual considered NOT real!?

It was Real and it was Spiritual (this is not a paradox)…but the most important point I want to emphasize is "It was already done for you on that day."

THIS is why OUR partaking of it is now a memorial, because it was already performed back then. Christ has already sacrificed himself for you; us. There is no additional work required on our part (once we’ve laid our sins on the lamb) but to thank Him by remembering what he has done.

Note: Christ is speaking to his disciples about something that was about to soon occur (present tense) back then, that they would see happen. Today, our reckoning of it is past tense. But we are stuck in a time loop of sin because we can’t accept that we have already been saved, and sanctified (if we laid our sins onto the lamb).

It is a lie; a subtle deception by our enemy to believe that we have to sacrifice Christ over and over, of which the repeated act suggests that the original act wasn’t good enough.

Joshua if what you say is true; then why did Jesus celebrate Mass with his disciples after the resurrection?

Luke 24:29
But they urged him, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening and the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.
30
**And it happened that, while he was with them at table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them.
31
With that their eyes were opened and they recognized him, but he vanished from their sight. **
32
Then they said to each other, “Were not our hearts burning (within us) while he spoke to us on the way and opened the scriptures to us?” …

**Then the two recounted what had taken place on the way and how he was made known to them in the breaking of the bread. **

The Son NOW

 

[Joshua27]

Hi Joshua you raised some interesting insights of the Spirit; What do you think of the following scriptures all relating to the Jewish Passover and the Eucharist; Hey did you know that Eucharistia = Thanksgiving? You know this is what Catholics are doing when we worship in Spirit (who changes the bread and wine into the body,blood soul and divinity) and Truth because Jesus is truly present to us in his body, blood soul and divinity.

Jesus passover ends in the “it is finished” our new covenant Passover cannot begin until we eat the sacrificial lamb of God so as to passover from death into eternal life;

John 19: 30 When Jesus had taken the wine, he said, “It is finished.” And bowing his head, he handed over the spirit.

Remember from Genesis that first the evening…and then the morning is the [full] day. The evening of Christ’s last supper was the evening of Preparation Day; the 1st half of that Day. After supper, Christ was betrayed and arrested; jailed for the rest of the night. In the morning of Preparation Day; the 2nd half of that same Day. He was tortured and crucified (but not a bone was broken on him. Finally, in the moment Christ cried out, “Father! Why have you forsaken me!?” we know that the exchange of his innocence for our corruption was occurring.

The Father can not dwell in a defiled temple, so the Spirit of God left the Son the moment the Son started to take on all of our sins and guilt. This is why the sacrificial lambs of the past were violently killed; truly they were no longer innocent after the exhange. Similarly, Christ was no longer innocent, he gave it (the life-giving water) to us, thus to fulfill the scripture he now - for the first time - said, “I thurst”. Recall that all throughout his ministry he offers others “drink”, until now. The exchange has occurred. “It is finished.” The payment was complete.

1Cor.5: 7 Clear out the old yeast, so that you may become a fresh batch of dough, inasmuch as you are unleavened.** For our paschal lamb, Christ, has been sacrificed**.
8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but** with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.**

Yeast (or leaven) has always exemplfied corruptness, and notice that leaven is in bread. Now read what Christ says to his disciples about the religous leaders:

Matthew 16:6 “Be careful,” Jesus said to them. “Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

7 They discussed this among themselves and said, “It is because we didn’t bring any bread.”

8 Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

So if Christ just equated “teachings” to “bread”, what is the “bread of heaven”? What is this “bread” (that is Christ’s body) other than every word (teachings) that proceed from the mouth of God? To consume the bread of life is to place the words of God in your mind and in your heart.

Hebrews 10:16] This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds

---

For context of Paul’s conversation to Corinth, let me add the following verses:

1Cor. 10:3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

To save on space, I added my words in brackets below (and notice this is a continuation of the “Spiritual Understanding” of the verses above):

1Cor.10: 16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood [innocent life] of Christ? The bread [teachings] that we break [share], is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

17 Because the loaf of bread [Word of God] is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf [Word of God].

**18 **Look at Israel according to the flesh [meaning “change to carnal, fleshy perspective”. The language here shows that Paul wasn’t talking “carnally” prior to this]; are not those who eat the [real animal] sacrifices [real] participants in the altar? [Rhetorical question assuming an affirmative answer]

19 So what am I saying? That meat sacrificed to idols is anything [important]?Or that an idol is anything [important]?

20 No, I mean that what they sacrifice [those who sacrifice to idols: Gentiles/Pagans], (they sacrifice) to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to become participants with demons [do what the idol worshipers do].

21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord [participate in Christ] and also the cup of demons [participate in idolatry]. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and of the table of demons [same as above].

22 Or are we provoking the Lord to jealous anger? Are we stronger than he?

TOC…

 

[Libertarian_FL]

I will simply respond that Jesus never said everyone was to do the Lord’s Supper or your not saved or that anyone outside the Twelve in fact who were the only ones there. So it could have been limited to the Twelve just by His example.

And on a personal note if your right and it IS the Body and Blood of our Lord doesn’t that mean in the end we poop and **** Him out after digesting Him that is pretty nasty. If its symbolic I have less of an issue save its just a tememberance and not a sacrament the only sacrament is baptism that was clearly demanded for one to be saved.