How Many Here Can Say With All Honesty They Are Split Between Catholic Traditinalist Mass & Novus Ordo

[ElizabethPH]

I used to think that I would just go to the Latin Mass if it was offered in my area; but it’s not. I love my parish and the life I have in it. As it stands now I think if ever there was the choice I would probably attend both. With my NO parish remaining my main parish. So I am not torn I think there can be room for both forms in my life.

 

[Timothysis]

I find it despicable that supposed Catholics are using these photos as a means of ridiculing and denigrating Novus Ordo churches and their faithful.

And there in lies the problem. The same holier than thou arrogance that allows people to judge others as “evil” based on the statues and art they choose to display in their church is what contaminates every thing they do in life.

Arrogance, pride, haughtiness and judgment… yes these are the values that Jesus taught. Or at least you would think so if you listened to a handful of people that seemingly spend there days on the “Traditional Catholicism” section of this forum judging other Catholics.

Kudos.

Very astute observation, my friend. There was a poster here who actually said once that the EF is “more efficacious” than the OF. I call this the “my Jesus is better than your Jesus” mentality. No doubt you will receive some scathing postings in response but don’t worry about it; you know which side is up.

 

[pnewton]

By looking at these pictures of Novus Ordo parishes. I’d say yes.
Images from The Crescat website a favorite website of Fr Zuhlsdorf (aka FrZ).

thecrescat.blogspot.com/2009/07/submissions.html

I knew someone would try to get arguementative.

Yes, I attend a Catholic Mass. I do not go there for the art, not do I think art appreciation is a suitable topic in light of the OP.

Then shoot off an e-mail to the Crescat website and tell them your disapproval and that their not Catholic.
thecrescat.blogspot.com/

If these pictures are not Catholic churches, what is the issue.

 

[Layman]

Very astute observation, my friend. There was a poster here who actually said once that the EF is “more efficacious” than the OF. I call this the “my Jesus is better than your Jesus” mentality.

See what I mean?

 

[CradleCath]

I find it despicable that supposed Catholics are using these photos as a means of ridiculing and denigrating Novus Ordo churches and their faithful.

And there in lies the problem. The same holier than thou arrogance that allows people to judge others as “evil” based on the statues and art they choose to display in their church is what contaminates every thing they do in life.

Arrogance, pride, haughtiness and judgment… yes these are the values that Jesus taught. Or at least you would think so if you listened to a handful of people that seemingly spend there days on the “Traditional Catholicism” section of this forum judging other Catholics.

Kudos.

 

[CradleCath]

I find it despicable that supposed Catholics are using these photos as a means of ridiculing and denigrating Novus Ordo churches and their faithful.

And there in lies the problem. The same holier than thou arrogance that allows people to judge others as “evil” based on the statues and art they choose to display in their church is what contaminates every thing they do in life.

Arrogance, pride, haughtiness and judgment… yes these are the values that Jesus taught. Or at least you would think so if you listened to a handful of people that seemingly spend there days on the “Traditional Catholicism” section of this forum judging other Catholics.

Kudos.

Hmmmmmm!! I’ve been away from Catholic Answers for three months (Massive computer problems.). However, it seems as if not much has changed. I’ve read this thread & seen not one poster, that has a traditionalist view point…post anything as hateful as the above post:

• “holier than thou??”
• “arrogant, prideful, haughty???”
  Those words are quite judgmental.

To answer the question that forms the title of this thread, no, I can say that I’m not divided as to my preference. I attend the TLM exclusively & I fear what I would do if we lost it. I spent 40 years trying to accept the Novus Ordo & the mentality that seems to go with it. I left that Mass so many times feeling cheated, depressed & even angry. The Liturgical dancers, the absence of kneelers, the EXTRAordinary Eucharistic Ministers used everyday. The constant BUSY-NESS of it.

I am actually afraid of what I might do if we lose the Latin Mass that I’ve been attending for the last couple of years. Would I be able to return to the “Communal Meal” that replaced the SACRIFICE of the Mass?? I hope so, but I’m not sure. Do any of you trads feel the same?? Scary thought!!!

 

[Layman]

I think all tradition-minded Catholics have to do is keep their heads down, support any local TLMs, pray and wait.

Alas that things should have to come to this juncture! Still, I suppose it’s been in the offing since Mr. Gutenberg printed his first Bible and subsequently every man could then become his own Pope.

Came across this because I’d heard ‘The Remnant’ newspaper was hardcore tradtionalist so I thought I’d give it the once-over. Note the picture of the chapel the correspondent is giving out about, in the light of the recent posts above:

remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2009-0615-blackshaw-reformation_revisited.htm

If I’ve read it correctly there are now no seminaries in Scotland? This is not good. I wonder how far this has to go before even the most progressive Bishop realises that a change of approach is necessary?

 

[jboss]

I attended or “assisted at” my first Traditional Latin Mass November of last year 45 miles from my home. Since then, I think I’ve gone to the Traditional Latin Mass more Sundays than the new Mass. I found in this Mass what I had been deprived of my entire life, something that my soul had been longing for.

Why is it that I had never in my entire life heard Gregorian Chant at the New Mass when the Vatican II document Sacrosanctum Concilium says “The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical service.”

Why is it that Eucharistic Prayer I, the Roman Canon, which had been used exclusively for 1,600 years, and which the Council of Trent taught to be in its essence of Apostolic Origin is almost never used in the New Mass?

I do not in any way doubt the grace that God gives through the New Mass as I’ve been the beneficiary of it for my entire life. Moreover, I think that if the New Mass were celebrated according to the intention of Vatican II, with Gregorian Chant, with the Kyrie in Greek, the Gloria in Latin, with the priest facing the altar, and with the priest strictly following the missal, I would see much less difference between the two forms of the Roman Rite. Until then, I’m slightly split, but I think Pope Benedict is trying to bring the New Mass back to what was intended.

I found this article really useful about this topic:
catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0540.html . It brought me some peace regarding the two forms of the rite. The biggest issue is not the New Mass, but the fact that very few of us have ever seen the Mass as the Second Vatican Council actually intended.

John

 

[roveau]

To me the most important aspect about the Mass is the Eucharist and I would happily go to any Mass in any language for that. BUT if I had the choice between the Novus Ordo or the Latin Mass, it would be the Latin Mass every time.

We are fortunate to have the Latin Mass said on one Sunday every month… and this is an out of the way parish (Wyong). I went to the Latin Mass recently and it was wonderful, everything was done correctly including Eucharist on the tongue and kneeling where the altar rail used to be. Even the children were well behaved. People genuflected just as they did in the early 1960s… and most of the women wore hats or veils. I could follow most of it on my 1958 edition Missal. I did get a bit lost during the silent parts.

Rove

 

[OhMalley]

I’m not looking for sarcastic remarks here.
Truthfully I myself am torn in my heart between both Masses.
Would appreciate some honest (name removed by moderator)ut.

I prefer the Ordinary Form of the Mass for several reasons.

Probably the biggest reasons are the expanded and more readings from the Bible, Eucharistic Prayers tailered to a given holy day or feast and being able to receive the Precious Blood directly from the chalice.

 

[OhMalley]

Elaborating on my last post. I have meet with a few Catholic men and women in my archdiocese probably less than 100 individuals interested in the the Traditional Latin Mass. **Over the last decade a small group of individual Catholics who purchased a old wood structure small Baptist Church in the city that seriously needed repairs inside and in the basement. Repairs were made slowly over the time and a high alter Tabernacle from Maine and a Alter from Massachusetts outside Boston was eventually found and purchased and installed in the dilapidated old Baptist church without the consent of our Archbishop **which over years became an unsettling thorn and embarrassment in his side. Over the years another TLM group from Nova Scotia added to the funding but later a argument ensued over management with resentments and the TLM Mass service in my city regrettably fell apart. There was also a struggle with the aging retired priest worsening health. Eventually correspondence letter pleas were sent to few places in western United States in search of Traditional Latin Mass priest willing to come to eastern Canada with free private accommodations a car and a earnest salary. Nothing was really successful. Presently; after a mending with our Archbishop he agreed to have a priest in our archdiocese with one TLM a month which was the best he could offer due to already aging and declining priests in our Archdiocese.

It sounds like the Protestant traditions of that structure are still being upheld.

 

[Layman]

For me, the most upsetting thing about that quote is not the people trying to repair an old, small, wooden, Protestant church and turn it into a Catholic one without their archbishop’s permission; it’s the fact that when they reconciled with their archbishop, all he could offer them, from an archdiocese, is a priest to say a TLM once a month because of an ageing population of priests.

I fear time and demographics will eventually settle the TLM vs N.O. debate, if nothing else will. No priest = no Mass = no church.

They should have kept the archbishop and the local P.P. ‘in the loop’ as to what they were doing. Keep it friendly and civilised. I don’t know if you technically need permission to renovate a church and make it look Catholic, but I’m sure you do if you intend to consecrate it and get a priest to say Mass there. Regardless, having a priest willing and able is more important than the building.

 

[centurionguard]

For me, the most upsetting thing about that quote is not the people trying to repair an old, small, wooden, Protestant church and turn it into a Catholic one without their archbishop’s permission; it’s the fact that when they reconciled with their archbishop, all he could offer them, from an archdiocese, is a priest to say a TLM once a month because of an ageing population of priests.

I fear time and demographics will eventually settle the TLM vs N.O. debate, if nothing else will. No priest = no Mass = no church.

They should have kept the archbishop and the local P.P. ‘in the loop’ as to what they were doing. Keep it friendly and civilised. I don’t know if you technically need permission to renovate a church and make it look Catholic, but I’m sure you do if you intend to consecrate it and get a priest to say Mass there. Regardless, having a priest willing and able is more important than the building.

Most of what you address here I support fully.
Of particular notice I too fear time and the real reality

I fear time and demographics will eventually settle the TLM vs N.O. debate, if nothing else will. No priest = no Mass = no church.

This is becoming more evident than most Catholics wood give conscious consensus too a dying church demographically and in some major urban cities especially considering the ravaged effects of modernity in the Catholic Church and protestant churches. Have you walked into the new architecture of many present-day Catholic Churches growing all around the world. Many look less religiously edifying than some of the beautifully crafted architecture in a number of protestant churches.
Most Novus Ordo Catholic Bishops could give a dam about the T.L.M.
The Schism in the Catholic Church is increasing as prophesied in Fatima.
But that Schism depends upon with whom and which side of Mass devotions you place your heart in. As for that old dilapidated former Baptist church my city itself pressuring the owners to buy the land outright for municipal use.

 

[CradleCath]

For me, the most upsetting thing about that quote is not the people trying to repair an old, small, wooden, Protestant church and turn it into a Catholic one without their archbishop’s permission; it’s the fact that when they reconciled with their archbishop, all he could offer them, from an archdiocese, is a priest to say a TLM once a month because of an ageing population of priests.

I do agree with all you say, Layman. My Bishop (Robert Finn) is very traditional & totally orthodox, yet he has met with so much opposition, not only from the clergy that he leads but from the lay people who were pretty much “hangers-on” of the old Bishop.

ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2006/05/opus-dei-bishop-robert-finn-cleans.html
After taking over in late May, Finn:

Replaced the leadership team of his predecessor, Bishop Raymond J. Boland. (The diocese had been in the hands of a bunch of wealthy & liberal laypeople for a looooooonnnnnggg time. They have since fought him at every turn.)

**More than halved the diocese’s funding of a longstanding center that trained Catholic laypersons to help in their parishes. ** (Help isn’t quite the word I would use here. We have had more laity in the Sanctuary than one could believe.)

Stopped publishing the column of a theologian [Rev. Richard McBrien] often at odds with the Vatican, a move that caused an outcry from some readers of the diocesan newspaper. That newspaper is called the National Catholic Distorter…whoops, the National Catholic Reporter.

The real reason that liberals fiercely dislike the Tridentine Mass is that it is so Catholic – so oriented toward sacrifice, repentance, forgiveness of sins, atonement, mercy, the Communion of Saints, and more. So, “old world” don’t ya see. It embarrasses them, just as it embarrassed those “intellectual elites”…mostly from Western Europe…during the Council.

As Alice von Hildebrand has said, liberals do not want to hear about personal sins (“Mea culpa,” “my fault”) but societal faults (“Tua culpa,” “your fault”). They like this new "I"m OK., you’re OK. kind of Catholicism & it seems that many of our priests like being their buddies.

My own parish celebrates the TLM. every Sun. at 12:30, so I’m lucky. It’s a small working class parish that is over 150 yrs. old & somehow snuck by without being wreckovated during the late 60’s & early 70’s. (Probably because the neighborhood it’s located in is out of the way & not one of the “best”. We changed to that parish because of the abuses at our old parish. When we learned, by looking at the Latin Mass Society on-line that they held a weekly Latin Mass, we said goodbye to the liberal parish we were in.

Here’s ONE of our problems…there are 7 other parishes in our city & not one of them will mention the Latin Mass from the pulpit. We’re trying …pray for us.

 

[Layman]

I would say, dear CradleCath, that it’s ‘early days for the renewal of the old rite’, to coin a phrase, so be of good cheer. The main thing it to strive for sanctity yourself and make the best of your situation.

Personally, I think I’m going to stop getting so ‘het up’ about the abuses, novelties and what not. Just point out, calmly and succinctly, why they’re wrong, and move on.

Obstructionist bishops should be prayed for. They will have to give an account, same as the rest of us. Deliberately impeding people’s access to a licit and lawful Mass is wrong, unless there’s no priest available, or similar, serious impediment. A bishop stopping people from having a Mass? A keen congregation for a Mass means more money in the collection, if nothing else.

My opinion is that the Church deals in decades and centuries. We mortals fret over the weeks and months. Many good Catholics have no knowledge of the old rite, or even the ‘uncomfortable’ bits of their faith, like the relation of mortal sin to damnation, for example. You’d have to know what you were looking at to really appreciate the old rite, from a ‘standing start’. I think you’d have to go to old rite Masses exclusively, and some Missa Cantatas, for a few months, then go to an O.F., to decide whether you favoured the old and the new.

Also, most Catholics don’t know that most of the changes post-Vat. II were not mandated by the Second Vatican Council; bishops, priest and lay-people took the lead from progressive places like Holland and ‘ran with the ball’, I understand. So I suppose they’re fairly happy with what they’ve got, if there’s nothing too odd occuring at Mass.

‘Turning back the clock’ won’t happen overnight (hey, another phrase coined! I’m doing well, here )

 

[mkingdomlvr]

I was hoping someone would say that. And, may I add, you said it very nicely, too.

For all the arguing that goes on, I doubt that most of those who “find their place” at the EF (as I do: when I voluntarily attend the Latin Rite it is only to assist at the EF) would really have much to say by way of complaining about the OF provided the EF were more readily available. Some folks are fortunate enough to have regular local access to the EF, but the vast majority (whether in the US or elsewhere) are not so blessed. They are, in a word, deprived of the opportunity to assist at the form of Mass they prefer. But of course they are not deprived of the various liturgical “oddities” that often go hand-in-hand with the OF. Given that, it is any wonder that those people rant about the OF? Is it any wonder many of them go to the SSPX (where available)?

The argument could be quietly put to rest if only the EF were offered more generally. From my perspective, I’d go so far as to suggest that any church having more than one Sunday Mass be required to have one of them according to the EF. (It’s doubtful that many bishops – especially those who are notoriously obstructionist to Summorum Pontifiicum in the first place – would be keen on the idea, but no doubt a lot of faithful would be.) If it were to happen, it would serve several purposes, including to help defuse the “war of religion” that has been raging for the past 40-some years.

I agree. I used to live close enough to an EF to attend weekly, but since I moved the two places that offer it are quite distant from me. I could go maybe once or twice a month, but my budget doesn’t allow for more than that given gas prices.

I prefer the EF but these days I’d be happy to find a reverent OF!!

 

[xXConfiteorXx]

I totally find myself in between, however, i do find that the reverence for the Eucharist, the orthodox teaching, and the prayerful atmosphere in the parish where i go for the EF outweighs the lack of “mainstream.”
Still, with the new translation of the Missal coming out, and having read it over, it really has become much more beautiful, and much more inline with the Latin rubrics ^^
so in the end, who knows?