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MarkThompson
Guest
Ah. Sorry you couldn’t find any. Cause I’m sure that all the Doctors of the Church expect the Eastern rites to be in Latin.
How Many Here Would Attend The Traditional Latin Mass If It Were Available ?
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Major_Minor
Guest
The mass I would most like to attend is one that uses plainchant music. I LOVE the church but have to say the absolute weakest spot is the music.
THE CURRENT MUSIC IS TERRIBLE!!!
Everything about the mass (Vernacular or Latin) feels holy to me… except the… well you get the idea.
THE CURRENT MUSIC IS TERRIBLE!!!
Everything about the mass (Vernacular or Latin) feels holy to me… except the… well you get the idea.
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elts1956
Guest
How does Mass in the vernacular make the Mass and Eucharist “more accessible”?
I’m not saying one form is better than the other. I think lack of reverence at the Mass existed even when only TLM was available. But I really don’t think it was as wide spread as it is today. I think reverence has to do with understanding what is happening during Mass and that is certainly not emphasized in religious education.
I think a stronger teaching,( and thus better understanding) of the rituals of the Mass in either the NO or TLM should be given so that people going to Mass in either form really understand what is going on. ie. Why do we stand, sit, kneel when we do. Why does the priest make the movements he makes? And so forth.
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elts1956
Guest
That is interesting. Source?
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MarkThompson
Guest
Sorry, I was speaking ironically. Of course the Doctors of the Church don’t all think that Latin is necessary for reverent worship – and it isn’t. Don’t get me wrong, I had five years of Latin and I love it (and the Latin Mass), but the notion that, you know, “You can’t have the Mass without Latin! It’s just not the Mass! It’s supposed to be the universal Latin Mass of All the Ages, handed down from Saint Peter!” – all that business is a combination of pipe dreaming, dissembling, and naivete. None of it has ever been true. Some people, like the commenter above, will take every counterexample, no matter how destructive to their thesis, and say, “Oh yeah? That’s not what I’m talking about. Is that all you have?” So you get exchanges like:
–Latin is the universal language of the Catholic Church. You should be able to go anywhere and find the worship in Latin. It is impossible to have true Catholic worship without Latin.
–Um, it works just fine in twenty or so of the Eastern churches which are part of the Catholic Church, where they’ve always used their respective vernaculars.
–That’s not what I meant.
–Uh, okay. Well, for centuries in the Roman Rite they used the vernacular in the Balkans, in Africa, with the Native Americans …
–Is that all you have?
It’s a fairly pointless discussion, really.
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Cat
Guest
Once again, feelings.
Funny–the contemporary music in the OF of the Mass “feels” holy to me.
I like contemporary music and dislike chant (lack of regular melody and cadence, non-Western intonation, etc.) and certain other ancient forms of music (polyphonic music is frenetic, many of the traditional hymns are too flowery in their English, Latin is not my heart language, etc.). OTOH, I find contemporary music contemplative, joyful (not “happy”), and reverent. I find it easier to worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness when contemporary hymns and songs are used during Mass. I struggle to truly worship when the ancient hymns and songs are used.
You see why feelings cannot be used as a marker of what is correct and what isn’t? (At this point, certain contemporary hymns and songs are still “correct” for use in the OF of the Mass.) Feelings will vary from person to person. The Church dogma will not vary.
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Ockham
Guest
Excellent point. It follows then that ancedotal evidence does not offer much in perspective. Saying something like "my daughter thinks the TLM is too ‘latin-y’’ does not make for a good argument. When Georgetown university conducts a survey and finds twice as many people want the TLM than oppose it that makes for a good argument.
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ProVobis
Guest
Mark, I don’t think anyone said the vernacular can’t be used for missionary work. And I’m sure very remote vernaculars, even sign languages, are used for that purpose.
It’s like this. π is mathematical truth, which not everyone understands. But when you tell someone it is approximately 3.14, he now thinks he understands it and he’ll love you for “explaining it” to him. However, he probably couldn’t use that information to derive anything real meaningful from it. He’ll need to know what π really is and it’s something that can’t be fully explained with rational numbers, though that doesn’t stop us from trying.
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Cat
Guest
Ockham, you have misquoted me, or more accurately, you have misquoted my daughter.
The post that you are referring to is #94 on this thread. Here is the section that you misquoted:
**Our family will be in St. Louis this weekend, and I asked my older daughter where she would like to attend Mass with us. I mentioned the Basilica (which is breath-takingly beautiful, BTW).
She said, “Oh, no way. It’s too Latin-y.”**
My daughter did NOT say that “the TLM is too Latin-y.”
As far as I know, the Mass at the Basilica in St. Louis is not a TLM. It’s the OF of the Mass, and my daughter would have visited this Mass with her sister and brother-in-law during a short visit. That’s how she knows about the Mass at the Basilica. I don’t even know how much Latin is done in the OF at the Basilica. My daughter wasn’t speaking specifically Latin or of the TLM and she certainly wasn’t being derrogatory; she was merely saying that she prefers the more modern Masses. I happen to have the same preference, and as long as the Church recognizes the OF as a valid and efficacious Mass and still allows many different styles of music and hymns, I can enjoy Mass according to my preference with a clear conscience.
I know that it’s easy to get things mixed up on these threads, but I really would appreciate it if you would take another look at that post of mine. I don’t want you or anyone else thinking that my daughter is objectionable and stupid.
My daughter, like her parents (me and my husband) is a convert to Catholicism (two years ago), and to my knowledge, is not even aware that there is any kind of debate about Mass in Latin vs. vernacular. Most converts have no clue–we learn about these contentions from other Catholics. Sad, isn’t it? I wish I were a wide-eyed innocent Catholic again, naively believing that the Church really is One Church.
Sorry, I’m in a very sad and despondent mood tonight due to work, health, and family, and this post of yours was a huge downer on top of many other downers. Like almost any mother, I will not allow my child to be picked on.
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Ockham
Guest
The point is your posts are usually based on anecedotal evidence. I posted several surveys which indicate a strong interest in the TLM and you offer your family’s personal opinions which by the way are in the minority.
Sorry you had a bad day.
Sorry you had a bad day.
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choy
Guest
because people understand whats going on, they can participate reverently. they can put their hearts into the prayers, instead of processing the translations in their minds
unless you have statistical proof of mass violations today compared to, say 1600s, all these is just personal opinion and feelings. i feel that living in this world is harder today than in the past. but i guess someone who lived through the great depression would disagree. and someone who lived at a time they had to walk 20 miles each way to work and back would disagree. sometimes what seems is only personal perception, and not actual reality
easy to say, hard to do. i don’t believe Catechisis was better in the past than today. in fact technology today has helped for better Catechism. we see people quote Canon Law and other Church documents in this forum, and where do they get that? the Vatican website. in the past, that information wasn’t as accessible. top it off that more people were illiterate in the past than today.
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Cat
Guest
OK, I see your point. My conclusions about TLM and the interest of the faithful in the EF are based on the TLM in our city, which is not exactly drawing in the crowds even though it’s been around since the mid-1980s. It’s possible, I suppose, that our city might be some kind “outlier,” i.e., it is not a typical city in the U.S., and therefore what happens here is “fringe” and wouldn’t happen anywhere else. It’s possible.
Anyway, I am very glad that the Holy Mother Church does not base her conclusions about correct teachings on opinion surveys! I’m guessing that for every survey that seems to indicate high interest in TLM, we could probably find another survey that indicates that people want more contemporary Masses.
As many have said already, what we “want” doesn’t really matter. What matters is that the Catholic Church teaches the truth, and the truth that She teaches is that there are two forms of the Holy Mass, the Ordinary Form and the Extraordinary Form, and that both forms are good and proper for Christians and both forms honor the Lord Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.
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Cat
Guest
You’re right about the date. My memory must be playing me false. A few years ago, the diocese celebrated its centennial and published a history, which I read, but I must have registered 80s instead of 90s. Or perhaps I read that the Latin Mass has been offered in our city since the 1980s, but not necessarily at St. Mary’s. One of the sites I looked up mentioned Latin Mass being offered at the monastery in our city before it moved to the the Oratory, so perhaps that what I’m remembering.
At any rate, the Latin Mass has had a presence in our city for many years, which is, from what I gather on CAF, not the case for many other cities. Our bishop is extremely supportive of the Latin Mass and traditional music and Catholic practices. I can’t speak for the bishops who came before him, since our current bishop is the only bishop that I’ve ever known. I’ve admired and listened to him since the early 1990s, even though I was Protestant at the time.
Here’s a link to a blog that tells the history of the Oratory:
ww.examiner.com/x-22849-Rockford-Catholic-Examiner~y2009m9d4-The-125th-anniversary-of-Saint-Marys-Oratory
But as for why the church dwindled in attendance, it could have started with the fire in 1962. Here is a link to the website that tells the history:
institute-christ-king.org/rockford/rockford-about/
Or more than likely, the dwindling attendance in the 1970s and 80s has more to do with the location rather than the Mass form. The Oratory is downtown, in the middle of the city, and very few people live downtown, and those who do live there are generally lower-income. This has been the case since the 1970s and 1980s. In fact, the main demographic group that lived near the downtown population in the 70s and 80s was the African-Americans, who generally are not Catholic, as you know.
Now we have a fairly large Hispanic population and many of these people live near the downtown. But I think that many of them prefer to attend the Catholic church that has a large Hispanic parish and offers Masses in Spanish. This church is not very far from the Oratory. Or they prefer to attend English-speaking Masses, especially if they have children or teenagers.
Please keep in mind that our city is small, and driving downtown from anywhere in the city is only a 5-10 minute drive. Traffic is extremely light on Sundays. And statistically speaking, the downtown area has no more crime than other parts of the city, so it’s not danger that keeps people away. Parking doesn’t seem to be a problem, although like many downtown establishments, people park on the street (the dreaded parallel parking!), so I suppose that might have kept people away. But a few years ago, another downtown church moved to a new location in a wealthier section of the city, and this opened up the large parking lot right next to the Oratory (which is where the members of that other church used to park). So now parking is much easier for the Oratory parishioners.
One of the links I posted mentions that 500 people attend the TLM at the Oratory each week, and these people drive from all around our city. Again, keep in mind that the TLM has been offered at this Oratory since 1997, so it’s been around for over a decade. 500 people is respectable, but it’s hardly a huge number, and to me, it indicates that the majority of practicing Catholics prefer to attend the OF Mass. At our parish, there are nine Masses offered on weekends, and several of these Masses have over 500 people in attendance. I’m sorry if I sound a little cruel, but facts are facts. And yes, I realize, as Ockham pointed out, that this is purely anecdotal evidence. It is certainly possible that our city is not typical, and that if the TLM were offered in any other small city in the U.S. (Pop. of our city is 150,000), thousands of people would attend.
There are some beautiful pictures in these links for those of you who enjoy traditional church architecture and windows.
One of my childhood friends converted to Catholicism from Lutheranism, and is a member of the parish that celebrates TLM at the Oratory, and also sings in their choir. She and I like to chat about the journey that both of us took to come home to Catholicism.
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Ockham
Guest
Do you honestly believe the Novus Ordo is participated in reverently? Did the congregation prior to 1969 not understand what was going on during Mass?
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
This is quite insulting to me
, as the OF is the only form I know.I participate very reverently and so do most of the people in the parish I attend.
I was the first person to respond to this thread.
I think you should go back and look at my post (#2).
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Cat
Guest
Are you trying to link the falling away of so many Catholics to the establishment of the OF of the Mass?
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JMJ_coder
Guest
Why has there been widespread disobedience to the Magisterium since day 1? A majority portion of the Church was wrapped up in the Arian heresy in the 4th century. In the 5th century the Oriental Churches broke communion over the Councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon. Numerous Christological heresies swept the Church in the 4th-7th centuries, titled the Christological Controveries. In the 8th century there was great disturbance involving the Iconoclasts. In the 11th century the Great Schism, in which over half of the Church left communion with Rome. In the 16th century Protestantism reared its ugly head and a good portion of the European Church fell into heresy. At the time of the First Vatican Council, a number left communion over that. In the 20th century, even before the Second Vatican Council there was great tumult in the Catholic universities and seminaries.
So, in perspective, the last 40 years hasn’t been “the sky is falling” catastrophe that many like to portray it as.
So, why is there so much disobedience in the Church? Because it is composed of sinners.
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JMJ_coder
Guest
Yes, all the time.
Depends on “understand”. I think most people understood that the Eucharist was being consecrated, but I don’t think most people could at any particular moment in the Mass say where exactly they were or what the particular prayer that was being said was (especially at a Low Mass where most of it was inaudible to the congregation) – and praying the Rosary would make this doubly difficult. There was a reason that Popes since Pius X were exhorting for a fuller and more active participation in the Mass by the laity. Let’s not don the rose colored glasses here.
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