How Many Here Would Attend The Traditional Latin Mass If It Were Available ?

[JMJ_coder]

When I was doing graduate work in physics, the lingual requirements at that time for a doctorate were proficiency in two of the following languages: French, German, Russian. They have since dropped this requirement. I don’t know what the reasons were but I’ll bet it had something to do with not being able to recruit enough scientists to study for doctorates. Pity they needed to do that.

At one of the Universities I’ve looked at for possible future doctoral work in Mathematics still requires proficiency (at least well enough to read) in one of those three languages. The stated purpose is to be able to read works in the original language of the great minds of math – and those three countries (France, Germany, Russia) have produced the vast majority of leading mathematicians in the past.

 

[JMJ_coder]

I do not believe that a Bishop should (or would) allow a regularly scheduled EF Mass for a “handful” (less than 100 maybe), of people. Maybe as a once a year or for special occaisions but it seems silly to me to schedule a weekly EF if only a small number actually want it.

I don’t think it is necessarily unreasonable, but I do think that logistically there is just not enough Priests to provide for such a small group. I think at a minimum you need a parish sized group that can viably be self sufficient (just like any other parish) before a Bishop would assign a Priest.

 

[ProVobis]

I live in a diocese of about 350,000 people. We have a weekly EF Mass that attracts about 300-400 per week, which amounts to about 1/10th of 1% of the Catholics in my Diocese, therefore, I do not see any reason to offer the EF anymore than it is already being done.

I believe the SP of 2007 left it in the hands of the priest(s) to decide these issues. Some priests have committed to saying Latin Masses at different parishes, no matter how large or small the crowd there.

You’re probably not going to get any priest to say the Latin Mass if no one wants to or can’t do it, no matter how many request it.

 

[Ockham]

All I think this survey shows is that the vast majority of Catholics are just plain indifferent.

Most people have no opinion because they don’t know what the EF is. It was practically locked away for forty years. Keep in mind the vast majority of Catholics stopped going to weekly Mass after V2.

Of the people with an opinion, twice the number want a regularly scheduled EF than do not.

The same results are being recorded in Europe.

 

[choy]

All I think this survey shows is that the vast majority of Catholics are just plain indifferent.

it may not be indifference. some may just not prefer one thing over the other

like myself, i’m not against TLM. i certainly won’t campaign to ban it. but its not like i would campaign ot have it in our parish either, it not something i’m looking for to go to every week. so where would that put me? i’m not against, but i’m not strongly for either. thats where you get the “no opinion”. sometimes they have an opinion, its just not one of the choices

 

[choy]

Most people have no opinion because they don’t know what the EF is. It was practically locked away for forty years. Keep in mind the vast majority of Catholics stopped going to weekly Mass after V2.

proof?

 

[Ockham]

Of what?

 

[ProVobis]

Most people have no opinion because they don’t know what the EF is. It was practically locked away for forty years. Keep in mind the vast majority of Catholics stopped going to weekly Mass after V2.

25% of Catholics now attend Mass on a weekly basis, most of them over 50. (And I’ll bet the Polish and Hispanics composition drive it this high.)

Here are some other sad statistics.

catholicmoraltruth.com/churchstatistics.htm

cara.georgetown.edu/sacraments.html

catholicity.com/mccloskey/state_of_the_church_2006.html

sh1.webring.com/people/up/pharsea/Decline.html

wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29948

 

[choy]

and can you correlate that to Vatican II?

or maybe, its just a coincidence. that the media has been increasingly liberal throughout the years since the inception of TV, that there’s increasing pressure by non-Catholic groups to convert Catholics to their faith, that there are a ton of moral issues today that didn’t exist in the past that divides Catholics.

tell me, where there anyone fighting for gay-rights before Vatican II?
where there anyone fighting for women’s right to an abortion before Vatican II?
were there TV shows back in the days of black-and-white that glorify sex and encourage promiscuity?

 

[curlycool89]

and can you correlate that to Vatican II?

Remember kiddies, correlation does not imply causation (also known as the Correlation Fallacy) :yup:

What that means in practical terms is that unless you can find a survey where the majority of people say they stopped going to weekly mass because of Vatican II, then all you’re doing is seeing smoke when there’s no fire.

Good old Economics 101.

 

[choy]

Remember kiddies, correlation does not imply causation (also known as the Correlation Fallacy) :yup:

What that means in practical terms is that unless you can find a survey where the majority of people say they stopped going to weekly mass because of Vatican II, then all you’re doing is seeing smoke when there’s no fire.

Good old Economics 101.

pardon my limited vocabulary
thanks for understanding what i meant

 

[Ockham]

and can you correlate that to Vatican II?

What in the world are you up to now?

Can you state your position clearly?

 

[choy]

What in the world are you up to now?

Can you state your position clearly?

there is a claim that people leaving the Church or refusing to go to mass is a direct result of changes implemented from the Second Vatican Council

i want proof of that claim. otherwise, its just another baseless claim aimed at promoting a personal agenda.

besides, its not fair to the Catholic Church, which held V-II, to accuse the council as the one that casued a decline in Mass attendance

 

[JMJ_coder]

were there TV shows back in the days of black-and-white that glorify sex and encourage promiscuity?

This one at least would be true. There is a reason the Hays Commission was created. For example, in the 1925 version of Ben Hur, there are a couple of scenes with topless and nude women.

 

[choy]

This one at least would be true. There is a reason the Hays Commission was created. For example, in the 1925 version of Ben Hur, there are a couple of scenes with topless and nude women.

out of curiosity i looked up the Hays Code. i briefly read through it and can’t think of a popular TV show today that will not violate that code in its entirety

 

[Ockham]

there is a claim that people leaving the Church or refusing to go to mass is a direct result of changes implemented from the Second Vatican Council

i want proof of that claim. otherwise, its just another baseless claim aimed at promoting a personal agenda.

besides, its not fair to the Catholic Church, which held V-II, to accuse the council as the one that casued a decline in Mass attendance

Do some research. Check the numbers pre and post V2. Think objectively. Clearly.

 

[choy]

Do some research. Check the numbers pre and post V2. Think objectively. Clearly.

thats not objectively, thats what you personally want to think

there are many factors that brought the crisis in Church attendance to where it is today. or are you forgetting that there were many heresies that arose from Catholics prior to Vatican II? in the same way you can quickly blame the TLM for the Reformation. Martin Luther after all is a TLM priest

the OF and EF are two ways to celebrate the same mass, none is greater than the other.

 

[curlycool89]

Do some research. Check the numbers pre and post V2. Think objectively. Clearly.

See, that right there is the correlation fallacy. Mass attendance dropped because of the times, the 60s. Vatican II just happened to be at the same time.

Personally, I would argue that mass attendance would have dropped more if not for the vernacular mass just because of how society changed in the 60s and 70s (people, especially Americans, would not have yielded to something they’d have seen as foreign, as Latin is), but that’s off topic, and I admittedly have no proof but my own opinion. But at least I’m willing to admit it.

 

[ProVobis]

Remember kiddies, correlation does not imply causation (also known as the Correlation Fallacy) :yup:

What that means in practical terms is that unless you can find a survey where the majority of people say they stopped going to weekly mass because of Vatican II, then all you’re doing is seeing smoke when there’s no fire.

Good old Economics 101.

Actually, that would be Statistics 101. But why the paranoia about Vatican II? There are stats that show attendance was declining in France prior to Vatican II. Maybe that’s one of the reasons Pope John XXIII called the council in the first place. All I was doing was putting up numbers. Your conclusions are your conclusions.

 

[Cat]

And I am not denying that at all.

However, there are certain conditions, as you state.

I do not believe that a Bishop should (or would) allow a regularly scheduled EF Mass for a “handful” (less than 100 maybe), of people. Maybe as a once a year or for special occaisions but it seems silly to me to schedule a weekly EF if only a small number actually want it.

I live in a diocese of about 350,000 people. We have a weekly EF Mass that attracts about 300-400 per week, which amounts to about 1/10th of 1% of the Catholics in my Diocese, therefore, I do not see any reason to offer the EF anymore than it is already being done.

Sounds like the situation in our diocese, although we have several parishes within the diocese that offer TLM on a regular basis. Those who attend are committed and enthusiastic, but the numbers are very small compared to all those who attend OF Masses.