How Many Here Would Attend The Traditional Latin Mass If It Were Available ?

[Cat]

Would you say the same if 90% of the votes were “no”?

Point is, if you’re going to criticize a poll, do it early and before you cast and see the votes. Then your criticism might have some credibility. Otherwise it just sounds like sour grapes or sweet lemons.

If 90% of the votes were no, I would state that the poll represents the opinions of those who are members of CAF and are actively posting in the Liturgy and Sacraments Section of the Forum; in other words, a small interest group among Catholics, mainly those who are involved with online religious forums;, and therefore, the poll cannot be used accurately to draw conclusions about the interest or lack of interest in the TLM among the general population of Catholics in the U.S.

I was not criticizing the poll. I was criticizing the use of the poll by one poster.

The only reason I waited so long to make this criticism is because Ockham waited until Post #412 to state, “Here’s what we know…” and went on to imply a conclusion that a large percentage of Catholics are interested in attending TLM.

If Ockham had made his statement “Here’s what we know…” and drawn his conclusions in Post # 5 instead of Post #412, I would have been happy to make a criticism earlier.

Frankly, I think Ockham was wise to wait until Post #412 to try to draw a conclusion from the poll. If he had made his conclusion early, it would have been invalid due to the small sample size.

Honest, I and a few others are not trying to rain on the TLM parade. We respect the Holy Father and would rejoice in the establishment of the TLM in our cities (there already is one in my city). We are merely attempting to hold others on the forum to scientific honesty when it comes to drawing conclusions from an online poll.

 

[Cat]

So the surveys I provided are spurious and inconclusive, but your ancedotal evidence is sound and binding on the rest of the world? Count the number of times you use the word “I” or “my” in your posts.

I have stated over and over and over again that my anecdotal evidence may well be true only in my city. Anytime that I have stated that I don’t believe the interest in TLM is widespread, I have almost always qualified this statement by adding “in my opinion,” or “this is just my opinion based on the situation in my city.” I have never tried to draw a sweeping conclusion and state it as fact, and if I have, it was a mistake on my part.

I’ll say it once again–my city has a population of 150,000, and is 65 miles west of Chicago. We have had a daily TLM in our city since at least 1998, with the full and enthusiastic blessing of the bishop and an adequate amount of publicity. The Sunday TLM is attended by approximately 500 people. This is just my opinion and I fully realize that something about our city or the Catholics in our city may be different than other cities–but based on what I have seen of the TLM attendance rate in our city, I can’t help but think that interest in the TLM is not great among the general population of Catholics.

Again, this is just my opinion, and perhaps our city is an exception, and in all other cities, there may well be great interest in TLM, and if it were offered, a large percentage of the city’s Catholics would faithfully attend.

 

[Ockham]

The only reason I waited so long to make this criticism is because Ockham waited until Post #412 to state, “Here’s what we know…” and went on to imply a conclusion that a large percentage of Catholics are interested in attending TLM.

Here’s exactly what I said: “Anywho…here’s what we know. This thread was started with a polling question asking people if they would attend the TLM is offered. 75% say they would. The CARA survey I provided indicates of people with an opinion, twice the number would attend then not. Surveys in Europe indicate half of Catholics who attend Mass would attend the TLM if offered.”

Where is the false conclusion? The only thing I’ve done is report survey findings. All you ever do is tell everyone your own personal opinion based on your own family or city.

Whether you like it or not there is considerable interest in the TLM. Surveys conducted in four European countries, one in America, and this thread prove that.

I’ll ask again, have you read the surveys?

 

[JerrySeibert]

Would love it. So many of the Responsorial Psalms are prayed in Latin. Sound beatiful.

 

[ProVobis]

I was not criticizing the poll. I was criticizing the use of the poll by one poster.

The only reason I waited so long to make this criticism is because Ockham waited until Post #412 to state, “Here’s what we know…” and went on to imply a conclusion that a large percentage of Catholics are interested in attending TLM.

I wasn’t necessarily directing my post to you (ad te); I was just saying. Once you’ve voted (or even if you didn’t) accept the results for what they are. If you feel they don’t reflect your intuition in such matters, then feel free to run your own poll using a different population, use different words, etc. Remember, though, you’re always taking a risk by starting any poll anywhere, even if you feel the odds are on your side when attempting to prove something. I wouldn’t say that asking such a question as the OP did of a predominately OF audience has the odds on your side and as such, the OP has some reason to be overjoyed, especially if it now improves his chances to get a TLM introduced into his parish. We can’t fault him for that.

 

[Cat]

Here’s exactly what I said: “Anywho…here’s what we know. This thread was started with a polling question asking people if they would attend the TLM is offered. 75% say they would. The CARA survey I provided indicates of people with an opinion, twice the number would attend then not. Surveys in Europe indicate half of Catholics who attend Mass would attend the TLM if offered.”

Where is the false conclusion? The only thing I’ve done is report survey findings. All you ever do is tell everyone your own personal opinion based on your own family or city.

Whether you like it or not there is considerable interest in the TLM. Surveys conducted in four European countries, one in America, and this thread prove that.

I’ll ask again, have you read the surveys?

Boldface mine. I find this phrase hurtful.

I have tried very hard to make it clear that I personally have no disagreement with the establishment of the TLM in parishes. I have stated over and over that it is good for Catholics who desire this form of the Mass to have access to it. I have tried and tried to make it clear that I have no problem with the TLM. The Church has given approval of the EF of the Mass, and that is something to be glad about.

Ockham, I DO like “it.” OK? I am not your enemy. I am not an opponent of the TLM. I don’t think anyone who has answered “nay” on this survey is an enemy of the TLM and wants to see it sequestered or banned. I think all of us are quite happy to see it celebrated, and many of us have said that we would like to see it made available to more Catholics in more parishes.

I personally would not be interested in attending the TLM, but that doesn’t mean that I have any objection to it, or that I think it should be stopped or shut down. And if for some reason, the OF is ever eliminated, I would attend the Latin Mass along with all the other Catholics.

I personally think–this is just my opinion–that eventually interest in TLM will disappear. But I have said over and over again that I could be wrong about this.

I do wish that you would not be so antagonistic towards me personally. I realize that you prefer the TLM and I prefer the OF. But that does not make us opponents. The Church fully approves of both forms for Catholics, and that’s that. I wish you well in your preference, and I would like to think that you wish me well also.

As for the comment in post #412, perhaps I read too much into your implication when you said, “75% say they would.”

As for the surveys that you posted, unless I am totally misinterpreting them, it seems to me that the majority of Catholics are still more interested in the OF of the Mass instead of the EF. From what I read, in one survey, 3 out of 10 were interested in TLM, and in another later survey, 4 out of 10 were interested. That’s wonderful.

But to be honest, the impression that I sometimes get from TLM enthusiasts is that almost everyone (except Cat and Choy) wants the TLM back again, and almost everyone dislikes the OF. And according to the surveys that you have posted, that’s just not true. It’s not even close. THAT’S what I have a problem with–“stretching” the truth. The truth from the surveys that YOU posted is that most Catholics are happy to stick with the OF of the Mass. Or am I totally missing something in those surveys?

 

[CWBetts]

Not only would I, but I do, once a month when it is on campus.

 

[Ockham]

As for the comment in post #412, perhaps I read too much into your implication when you said, “75% say they would.”

That’s the result of this thread’s survey. It’s right there for you to look at. I did not make the claims you are accusing me of. There have been surveys conducted and I reported the results. The impression you get is your own.

It’s also time to stop playing the victim card by stating you are hurt by my statement. You challenged my integrity by using words like ‘spurious’ and ‘false conclusion’. An apology is appropriate.

Considering the TLM was practically locked away for forty years it’s impressive people still want it. Maybe not the majority in Rockville Illinois, but as you point out that may change.

 

[CWBetts]

That’s the result of this thread’s survey. It’s right there for you to look at. I did not make the claims you are accusing me of. There have been surveys conducted and I reported the results. The impression you get is your own.

It’s also time to stop playing the victim card by stating you are hurt by my statement. You challenged my integrity by using words like ‘spurious’ and ‘false conclusion’. An apology is appropriate.

Considering the TLM was practically locked away for forty years it’s impressive people still want it. Maybe not the majority in Rockville Illinois, but as you point out that may change.

I voted"yes" but it still must be deemed inconclusive. This is a voluntary response poll,d as such the majority of respondents will vote only if they have a strong opinion. For a truly scientific poll, a random sample (of around 1100 or so) of Catholics around the world should be taken, as to avoid bias of “American Catholics” or “Spanish Catholics” etc. Ideally it should include roughly equal representations of men and women, lay, religious, and clergy.

 

[Ockham]

paixliturgique.org.uk/texte.asp?TEX_N_ID=367

cara.georgetown.edu/pr082409.pdf

I never suggested this thread’s poll was scientific. Interesting though.

 

[MarkThompson]

cara.georgetown.edu/pr082409.pdf

Is that the poll that indicates that only a quarter of Catholics say they would even be willing to tolerate the existence TLM as an option for others? And that the Vat-II generation is most in favor of the TLM? And that interest in the TLM sharply declines among the young?

I know the talking points – either the poll shows massive support for the TLM, which means it is being unjustly repressed, or else if it shows minimal support for the TLM, that’s because it’s been unjustly repressed for so long.

 

[davy39]

I wouldn’t. I had enough of the latin Mass when I was a kid. I was an altar boy and never did understand what was going on until got older. We only have one Mass a week now due to the priest shortage,so make it in English.

 

[CWBetts]

Is that the poll that indicates that only a quarter of Catholics say they would even be willing to tolerate the existence TLM as an option for others? And that the Vat-II generation is most in favor of the TLM? And that interest in the TLM sharply declines among the young?

I know the talking points – either the poll shows massive support for the TLM, which means it is being unjustly repressed, or else if it shows minimal support for the TLM, that’s because it’s been unjustly repressed for so long.

A convenient position…no matter what the reasoning, it is because you have been victimized

 

[Ockham]

Is that the poll that indicates that only a quarter of Catholics say they would even be willing to tolerate the existence TLM as an option for others? And that the Vat-II generation is most in favor of the TLM? And that interest in the TLM sharply declines among the young?

I know the talking points – either the poll shows massive support for the TLM, which means it is being unjustly repressed, or else if it shows minimal support for the TLM, that’s because it’s been unjustly repressed for so long.

It shows of people with an opinion on the subject twice as many are in favour than not.

I’m sure you can find all sorts of kinks in the armour. Take them up with CARA.

Do you dispute other surveys on Catholic life since V2 or just this one?

 

[MarkThompson]

It shows of people with an opinion on the subject twice as many are in favour than not.

I’m sure you can find all sorts of kinks in the armour. Take them up with CARA.

Do you dispute other surveys on Catholic life since V2 or just this one?

Huh? I didn’t “dispute” the survey, I described its findings to you.

 

[Ockham]

I’m tired of debating survey results. They are what they are. Interpret as you wish.

 

[CDNowak]

Is that the poll that indicates that only a quarter of Catholics say they would even be willing to tolerate the existence TLM as an option for others? And that the Vat-II generation is most in favor of the TLM? And that interest in the TLM sharply declines among the young?

I know the talking points – either the poll shows massive support for the TLM, which means it is being unjustly repressed, or else if it shows minimal support for the TLM, that’s because it’s been unjustly repressed for so long.

This is the poll that indicates that 11% of Catholics would attend the EF, if convenient (to put that in perspective that is approx. 25-35% of Catholics going to Mass weekly).

This poll does demonstrate a large increase in those without an opinion (25-63%), which would be expected when a majority of Catholics have no experience of the EF (regardless of whether suppression was justified it did happen). Opposition drops more sharply from its peak in the PreV-II Generation to single digits for PostV-II and Millennial generations.

You have not represented the poll accurately by any measure.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

I voted no, but only because I understand “attend” here to imply regularity.

I probably would visit, but not attend regularly.

 

[choy]

Would you say the same if 90% of the votes were “no”?

Point is, if you’re going to criticize a poll, do it early and before you cast and see the votes. Then your criticism might have some credibility. Otherwise it just sounds like sour grapes or sweet lemons.

whats sour graping about factual observations on the use of invalid statistical data?

 

[choy]

I voted"yes" but it still must be deemed inconclusive. This is a voluntary response poll,d as such the majority of respondents will vote only if they have a strong opinion. For a truly scientific poll, a random sample (of around 1100 or so) of Catholics around the world should be taken, as to avoid bias of “American Catholics” or “Spanish Catholics” etc. Ideally it should include roughly equal representations of men and women, lay, religious, and clergy.

that sounds like a sound scientific sample