How Many Here Would Attend The Traditional Latin Mass If It Were Available ?

[Ockham]

CARA: Survey Methods
The results above are from a February 2008 survey including the responses of
1,007 self-identified adult Catholics from Knowledge Networks large national panel of
households, which have been assembled by regular random telephone survey methods
(probability sampling). A survey with this number of respondents has a margin of
sampling error of ±3.1 percent. As a rule of thumb, every 1 percentage point of the total
adult Catholic population is equivalent to approximately 500,000 persons. The
Knowledge Networks panel is known to closely approximate the demographic
characteristics of the U.S. population. The panel is updated on a quarterly basis and those
persons who are sampled and asked to join the Knowledge Networks panel receive
subsidized Internet access and other incentives. For those who do not own computers,
Knowledge Networks provides a television-based Internet system (MSN TV) for free.
These steps ensure that the Knowledge Networks panel is as reflective as possible of the
national population and that it is not biased towards those who have pre-existing access to
the Internet.

 

[Paganus]

I have attended one Latin Mass. It was both licit and valid and was offered regularly at that parish. It seemed to be a extraordinarily introverted experience and the parishioners remained silent and internally focused all the way back to their vehicles. They were completely devoid of fellowship or friendliness. I voted “no.”

 

[Cat]

That’s the result of this thread’s survey. It’s right there for you to look at. I did not make the claims you are accusing me of. There have been surveys conducted and I reported the results. The impression you get is your own.

It’s also time to stop playing the victim card by stating you are hurt by my statement. You challenged my integrity by using words like ‘spurious’ and ‘false conclusion’. An apology is appropriate.

Considering the TLM was practically locked away for forty years it’s impressive people still want it. Maybe not the majority in Rockville Illinois, but as you point out that may change.

I apologize for assuming conclusions that you did not make, and for accusing you of spurious use of statistics.

I’m not playing the victim. I’m not very good at relationship politics. I’m honestly hurt by the statement “whether I like it or not” because it means that I have failed to communicate to CAF members that I support the establishment of TLMs in the U.S. and that makes me feel like a bad writer and an intolerant person. I DO support the establishment of TLMs in the U.S. since the Holy Father has given the go-ahead. Even if I personally am not interested in TLM, I realize that others are interested.

As an ex-Protestant, I watched and grieved as many traditions (small “t”, of course) were stripped away, and the church services of my childhood have been turned into stage productions complete with professional-only musicians (not a choir of church volunteers) and pastor-speakers trained in acting and showmanship. The traditional rousing hymns that Protestant Christians have sung since the Reformation and throughout many great revivals have been replaced by repetitive Praise and Worship choruses, and live instrumental music has been replaced by canned soundtracks. Due to vandalism, the hymnals have been replaced by overhead projections. The Communion service has been reduced from once a month to a few times a year. The Sunday evening vesper service has been eliminated, along with the Wednesday evening prayer meeting, the Pioneer Clubs, and Founder’s Day celebrations, and many churches are eliminating Sunday school due to lack of participation. Many churches are “needs-based” and offer yoga classes and diet workshops instead of Bible studies and systematic theology classes. Many churches have disassociated themselves from denominational organizations and are now led by a single young, idealistic, inexperienced pastor rather than a consortium of many wise men and women. Many churches have totally eliminated foreign missions, denouncing such efforts as imperialistic, and instead, add more programs for their own people, creating more “fat” Christians as we feed and feed at the pleasure-trough of Evangelical Christian Culture in the U.S. In spite of the name “evangelical,” many evangelical Protestant Christians NEVER leave the protective fortress of their own church world, associating only with “Christian” friends, enjoying only “Christian” entertainment, and eliminating all forms of “worldly contamination” including public schools and recreation venues, newspapers, television, magazines, and shopping areas.

So you see, I know all about losing my Christian heritage, and I sympathize with TLM lovers who have had their love stripped away. It’s happened to Protestants, too, and there wasn’t even a “Council” or a Pope who made that decision for Protestants. It was made by Hollywood and business types who, on their own, decided that “church isn’t relevant and therefore, needs to be updated.”

BTW, it’s not Rockville, IL. I don’t think we’re allowed to use specific names of cities and dioceses on this forum, right?

 

[Ockham]

I have attended one Latin Mass. It was both licit and valid and was offered regularly at that parish. It seemed to be a extraordinarily introverted experience and the parishioners remained silent and internally focused all the way back to their vehicles. They were completely devoid of fellowship or friendliness. I voted “no.”

Perhaps the congregation was completely focused on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and not each other. I doubt there was an abundance of fellowship and friendliness gestures in the crowd as it dispersed from Calvary.

 

[Ockham]

I apologize for assuming conclusions that you did not make, and for accusing you of spurious use of statistics.

Accepted and I apologize for upsetting you.

 

[choy]

I’m tired of debating survey results. They are what they are. Interpret as you wish.

thats exactly what has been happening

 

[Nowhere_Man]

I have attended one Latin Mass. It was both licit and valid and was offered regularly at that parish. It seemed to be a extraordinarily introverted experience and the parishioners remained silent and internally focused all the way back to their vehicles. They were completely devoid of fellowship or friendliness. I voted “no.”

If you were at the foot of The Cross, how would you act? Remember, the Sacrifice of Mass is the same Sacrifice that happened at Calvary, in an unbloody manner.

"The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner; this sacrifice is truly propitiatory” (CCC 1367)

“The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:” (CCC 1366)

 

[CWBetts]

I have attended one Latin Mass. It was both licit and valid and was offered regularly at that parish. It seemed to be a extraordinarily introverted experience and the parishioners remained silent and internally focused all the way back to their vehicles. They were completely devoid of fellowship or friendliness. I voted “no.”

Since when is the Mass to be considered a social event?

 

[Cat]

Since when is the Mass to be considered a social event?

I don’t understand why some think that those who stood at the foot of the Cross stood in solitude. The Blessed Mother stood with two female friends (Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene) and John the Beloved. She didn’t stand alone and watch her Son die.

I would imagine that those who stood at the foot of the Cross of Calvary clung to their friends and tried to find strength and courage in being together with others of like mind.

There may have even been singing. During times of grief, many of us sing or listen to music to find comfort. The martyrs sang as they marched to their deaths. My mother would often sit at the piano and play to comfort herself after her mother died. And when I am sad, I will often play to seek comfort and reach out to God.

There may have been talking and sharing, as friends stood together and tried to make sense of what was happening to Jesus.

And at the moment of the Lord’s death, I’m guessing that many of those who came with others to Calvary to watch and wait held each other and cried and tried in words and groans to comfort each other.

In the same way, we who come to Mass to enter into the Sacrifice of the Lord do not come alone. We come with others. If we have no friends or family members that are dear to us, we at least have our Church family. There is nothing improper about seeking the fellowship of others who love and follow the Lord Jesus as we are all together part of the Holy Sacrifice and stand at the foot of His Cross.

 

[CWBetts]

I don’t understand why some think that those who stood at the foot of the Cross stood in solitude. The Blessed Mother stood with two female friends (Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene) and John the Beloved. She didn’t stand alone and watch her Son die.

I would imagine that those who stood at the foot of the Cross of Calvary clung to their friends and tried to find strength and courage in being together with others of like mind.

There may have even been singing. During times of grief, many of us sing or listen to music to find comfort. The martyrs sang as they marched to their deaths. My mother would often sit at the piano and play to comfort herself after her mother died. And when I am sad, I will often play to seek comfort and reach out to God.

There may have been talking and sharing, as friends stood together and tried to make sense of what was happening to Jesus.

And at the moment of the Lord’s death, I’m guessing that many of those who came with others to Calvary to watch and wait held each other and cried and tried in words and groans to comfort each other.

In the same way, we who come to Mass to enter into the Sacrifice of the Lord do not come alone. We come with others. If we have no friends or family members that are dear to us, we at least have our Church family. There is nothing improper about seeking the fellowship of others who love and follow the Lord Jesus as we are all together part of the Holy Sacrifice and stand at the foot of His Cross.

The Mass is about our relationship with Gd, not our relationship with each other. Mass is not a social event, and it bothers me that a prayer of thanksgiving after the dismissal is next to impossible in many parishes, due to the noise

 

[Cat]

The Mass is about our relationship with Gd, not our relationship with each other. Mass is not a social event, and it bothers me that a prayer of thanksgiving after the dismissal is next to impossible in many parishes, due to the noise

According to the Catechism (P 1354) “the Eucharist is celebrated in communion with the whole Church in heaven and on earth, the living and the dead, and in communion with the pastors of the Church, the Pope, the diocesan bishop, his presbyterium and his deaconas, and all the bishops of the whole world together with their Churches.”

That kind of sounds like “relationship” to me.

I don’t see how we can celebrate in communion with people if we don’t have “fellowship” with them.

Now fellowship doesn’t mean whooping it up or laughing and having good times with others. Fellowship means being One Body with others, sharing the same Lord, the same faith, and the same baptism. It means loving each other. There was and is fellowship between those who watch and wait at the foot of the Cross of Christ.

As for your frustration at not having silence after Mass to pray–I suggest that perhaps after the crucifixion of our Lord, there was no silence. I imagine that there was much ribaldry and filthy talk among the soldiers and the conspirators who had finally (in their mind) succeeded in getting rid of the “troublemaker” Jesus. I imagine that among all those bystanders who were just having a good time at the execution, there was talk and speculation about some of the strange events surrounding the death of Jesus; e.g., His words from the Cross, and the darkening of the sky. Perhaps some of them heard the soldier at the foot of the cross comment that “this was surely the Son of God,” and were chatting about this comment and whether or not it was true. Perhaps some of the children were begging to be allowed to play or have some food.

At any rate, I doubt very much that all the onlookers quietly filed away from the hill of Golgotha. In fact, Luke 23: 48 says, “And all the multitudes who came together for this spectacle, when they observed what had happened, began to return, beating their breasts.”

I’m not excusing rudeness and trivial conversations after Mass (in the nave), but I’m just saying that an execution of three criminals was probably not a quiet event.

What I’ve gotten into the habit of doing after Mass is to pray in the midst of the din of conversation and noise (mainly out in the lobby), and to me, the din is like the sound of all the multitudes of saints in heaven praising the Lord and enjoying heavenly fellowship with each other. What joy it will be to be reunited in heaven with our loved ones, God willing, and to meet in person all those saints that we have only read about and pray to! I like the din–it reminds me that I am part of the Church of Christ, a real and visible organization on this earth, in purgatory, and in heaven. I am not a Church in and of myself.

I hope this is helpful to you.

 

[Ockham]

Somehow I doubt there was liturgical dancing, Glory & Praise hymns and jokes during the homily at Calvary. If you are honest about this issue then observe the congregation during the next Novus Ordo and ask yourself if Calvary was similar. As the previous poster pointed out, fellowship and friendliness are the hallmarks of the new Mass. Attention diverted from the Cross on to the congregation in a simplified liturgy, clamshell architecture so the focal point is our neighbours, blurred distinction between clergy and laity, de-emphasis on sin, communal gathering versus Holy Sacrifice. Prefer it if you will but please don’t pretend there is no difference.

 

[Ockham]

In fact, Luke 23: 48 says, “And all the multitudes who came together for this spectacle, when they observed what had happened, began to return, beating their breasts.”

Exactly. Beating their breasts. Not ‘fellowship and friendship’, hands up in the air, handshakes and hugs. It was remorseful, sorrowful, our Saviour was just executed. What’s the mood when a criminal is executed? Have you ever seen a man killed? An animal? It’s not a joyful scene.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Exactly. Beating their breasts. Not ‘fellowship and friendship’, hands up in the air, handshakes and hugs. It was remorseful, sorrowful, our Saviour was just executed. What’s the mood when a criminal is executed? Have you ever seen a man killed? An animal? It’s not a joyful scene.

Do you understand what fellowship is? It is not a social mixer. It is a communal binding. It brings us who are many together and through the Sacrifice of the Mass and through our common faith we are made one family. In fact, fellowship is often a synonym for communion.

And I don’t know why you have a problem with friendship? Did not Christ tell us we are his friends if we obey his commands? Were not all of his followers at the foot of the Cross friends with each other? If you were in some sorrowful situation would you not want to be with your friends? Do you not want to embrace your friends in your darkest moment as in your greatest victory?

 

[CWBetts]

According to the Catechism (P 1354) “the Eucharist is celebrated in communion with the whole Church in heaven and on earth, the living and the dead, and in communion with the pastors of the Church, the Pope, the diocesan bishop, his presbyterium and his deaconas, and all the bishops of the whole world together with their Churches.”

That kind of sounds like “relationship” to me.

I don’t see how we can celebrate in communion with people if we don’t have “fellowship” with them.

Now fellowship doesn’t mean whooping it up or laughing and having good times with others. Fellowship means being One Body with others, sharing the same Lord, the same faith, and the same baptism. It means loving each other. There was and is fellowship between those who watch and wait at the foot of the Cross of Christ.

As for your frustration at not having silence after Mass to pray–I suggest that perhaps after the crucifixion of our Lord, there was no silence. I imagine that there was much ribaldry and filthy talk among the soldiers and the conspirators who had finally (in their mind) succeeded in getting rid of the “troublemaker” Jesus. I imagine that among all those bystanders who were just having a good time at the execution, there was talk and speculation about some of the strange events surrounding the death of Jesus; e.g., His words from the Cross, and the darkening of the sky. Perhaps some of them heard the soldier at the foot of the cross comment that “this was surely the Son of God,” and were chatting about this comment and whether or not it was true. Perhaps some of the children were begging to be allowed to play or have some food.

At any rate, I doubt very much that all the onlookers quietly filed away from the hill of Golgotha. In fact, Luke 23: 48 says, “And all the multitudes who came together for this spectacle, when they observed what had happened, began to return, beating their breasts.”

I’m not excusing rudeness and trivial conversations after Mass (in the nave), but I’m just saying that an execution of three criminals was probably not a quiet event.

What I’ve gotten into the habit of doing after Mass is to pray in the midst of the din of conversation and noise (mainly out in the lobby), and to me, the din is like the sound of all the multitudes of saints in heaven praising the Lord and enjoying heavenly fellowship with each other. What joy it will be to be reunited in heaven with our loved ones, God willing, and to meet in person all those saints that we have only read about and pray to! I like the din–it reminds me that I am part of the Church of Christ, a real and visible organization on this earth, in purgatory, and in heaven. I am not a Church in and of myself.

I hope this is helpful to you.

Mass is vertical, not horizontal. If you want chit-chat, go to an ice cream social. Mass is the highest form of prayer, and is not a form of Sunday morning entertainment. Recognize what Mass is: A HOLY SACRIFICE! Until you realize this, it doesn’t matter what anyone says. You want entertainment, and couldn’t care less about worship.

 

[At_Trent]

Perhaps the congregation was completely focused on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and not each other. I doubt there was an abundance of fellowship and friendliness gestures in the crowd as it dispersed from Calvary.

Indeed.

 

[At_Trent]

The Mass is about our relationship with Gd, not our relationship with each other. Mass is not a social event, and it bothers me that a prayer of thanksgiving after the dismissal is next to impossible in many parishes, due to the noise

And those making the noise would not be doing so if they had an inkling of awareness of the the Mass.

Sad,

 

[At_Trent]

Perhaps the congregation was completely focused on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and not each other. I doubt there was an abundance of fellowship and friendliness gestures in the crowd as it dispersed from Calvary.

Indeed.

 

[Cat]

Mass is vertical, not horizontal. If you want chit-chat, go to an ice cream social. Mass is the highest form of prayer, and is not a form of Sunday morning entertainment. Recognize what Mass is: A HOLY SACRIFICE! Until you realize this, it doesn’t matter what anyone says. You want entertainment, and couldn’t care less about worship.

Did you actually read my post?

I said nothing about chit-chat and entertainment.

And I don’t want to go to an ice cream social.

And I personally choose to read and take to heart the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which makes it very clear in the paragraph that I quoted (P1354) that there IS indeed a horizontal aspect to the Mass.

I do not appreciate your writing “you want entertainment and couldn’t care less about worship.” This is simply not true and you have no right to prounounce such a harsh and speculative judgment upon me or anyone else that you do not know personally. I hope that my posts so far have indicated a desire to fully submit to Holy Mother Church and serve at Mass in the manner that She asks of us.

 

[Cat]

Somehow I doubt there was liturgical dancing, Glory & Praise hymns and jokes during the homily at Calvary. If you are honest about this issue then observe the congregation during the next Novus Ordo and ask yourself if Calvary was similar. As the previous poster pointed out, fellowship and friendliness are the hallmarks of the new Mass. Attention diverted from the Cross on to the congregation in a simplified liturgy, clamshell architecture so the focal point is our neighbours, blurred distinction between clergy and laity, de-emphasis on sin, communal gathering versus Holy Sacrifice. Prefer it if you will but please don’t pretend there is no difference.

I attended the OF of the Mass on Saturday evening (Vigil) in our clamshell church.

It was quiet and reverent, a worthy remembrance of the Holy Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ on the Cross. There was no liturgical dancing or Praise and Worship hymns. The priest did make a joke or two during his excellent and educational homily, but they were appropriate jokes that helped us all to better appreciate the Scripture readings. Who are you to criticize a priest? The Holy Spirit helps the priest to speak the appropriate words, and if the Holy Spirit leads the priest to use a joke or two in his homily, who are YOU to criticize Him?

There were no abuses whatsoever. Even the most minute examination of the Vigil Mass that I attended would have turned up nothing improper or abusive.

The presider was the Vicar General and Moderator of the Curia for our Diocese, and everything in the Mass was correct and pure. It usually is in our parish and in the parishes in our city, even if a parochial vicar or a retired priest presides over the Mass.

Our bishop is a Canon Lawyer and he is diligent to make sure that the Masses in his diocese are properly done.

Of course there are differences between the EF and the OF of the Mass. I don’t deny that. But both forms of the Holy Mass are totally acceptable and approved by the Holy Mother Church. Do you deny that? You and others post things that make it sound like you deny the validity of the OF of the Mass.

*Catholics should be free to select which form they prefer to serve at without facing the scorn and derision of their fellow Catholics. *

We get enough criticism and accusations from Protestant Christians and non-Christians. Why do Catholics devour each other over things that the Church has proclaimed good? We are surely not better than our own Church.

And Catholics should not make blanket pronouncements about Masses that they have never attended. If their own Masses are riddled with abuse and irreverence, Catholics should expend their energy and spend their time praying and working to bring about reform, and stop taking out their frustrations on other Catholics who are blessed with a good bishop and priests. Spreading lies and creating ill-feelings among Catholics about other Masses is not a good way to spend time and energy It undermines the Church.

I hope that our bishop and his priests, and other bishops and priests who are striving for perfection in their Masses, are gaining many graces with God every time Catholic laymen pronounce untrue criticisms against their Masses.

And I hope that my anger over these slanderous and untrue criticisms of their Masses is counted as “righteous anger” by the Lord and not held against me. I love my bishop and priests and hate seeing them and their Masses reviled by those who have never even attended one of their Masses.