how many Magi?

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Maybe at some time in the future there will be another discovery like the Dead Sea Scrolls dealing with the lost years of Christ and filling in some of the gaps

I always wish St Luke had written more…He is my favorite apostle…he told the sort of things I want to know…he just didn’t tell enough to suit me
 
Maybe at some time in the future there will be another discovery like the Dead Sea Scrolls dealing with the lost years of Christ and filling in some of the gaps
But…they will not be canonical. All we need to know is in the Gospels.
 
The whole Nativity scene that we have become accustomed to is not Biblical. It comes from St Francis.

I don’t think that how many Magi there were is essential.

Steve
I did not say how many Magi is essential. Angel said that nothing about the Magi, not their coming, not the gifts, not their number, matters at all.

I disagree with that premise. If it did not matter that the Magi came bearing gifts then why is it in Scripture?
 
I did not say how many Magi is essential. Angel said that nothing about the Magi, not their coming, not the gifts, not their number, matters at all.

I disagree with that premise. If it did not matter that the Magi came bearing gifts then why is it in Scripture?
I never meant to imply that the magi weren’t important; I meant that the birth is the focal point of the infancy narratives.

While we retain the details of wealth and power described in these passages—kings, camels, gold, honor—we often lose the theme of justice that spreads through Isaiah and is explicit in the psalm: “May all kings fall down before him, all nations give him service. For he delivers the needy when they call, the poor and those who have no helper”.

When we peel away the surplus meaning and focus on justice and power, the real gift of the mysterious and exotic visitors of greeting cards and Christmas pageants is a warning. Alerted by a star to his birth, the Magi seek the prince of peace in Jerusalem, the center of power.

They are summoned and go to Herod the king, alerting him to the birth of a potential rival. While the Magi return, oblivious and unscathed, to their own country by another route, the family they honored flees as refugees, and their neighbors’ children are slaughtered.

Rulers rule. Presidents preside. Leaders lead. Executives execute. They don’t shepherd! Shepherding implies compassion, care and a courageous life-sacrificing quality that few powerful people would understand or want to practice.

Yet this had always been the basis of Godly rule from the inception of the monarchy in Israel. The very first king David was called from the flocks to be the shepherd king, an archetype which was fulfilled in Jesus, the good shepherd.

Like Herod, I wonder how we react to the reality that there is one amongst us who challenges us in who we are and what we do? Like Herod, will we become afraid of this child, this shepherd king?

Do we also want to “put him away” this Epiphany? Will we can simply pack this shepherd king away with the Christmas tree and lights, as we dismantle them on the twelfth day of Christmas and assign them to the musty cupboard till next year?

Are we also agitated and troubled by the thought that allowing this child to continue to grow in our “homelands” may cost us too much, like Herod, and disturb our comfortable kingdoms more than we care for?

Herod hid from grace and terrible destruction was the fate and fruit of his life from then on. Could we do it differently?

The mystical magi are knocking on the door. They speak of stars and destiny, and shepherds who can lead us to God. Will we allow them to disturb us enough that we might join their caravan of change and become people of peace and justice?
 
I would like to recommend a DVD …You might still be able to watch it on EWTN…It is called the Star of Bethlehem…It was written and researched by a non catholic…but it is fascinating

He was able to take a computer program and show us the sky at the time of Christ while searching for the date of Christmas…It contained lots of scripture and the writings of people like Josephus

I just loved watching it…I certainly saw Our Lady of Guadalupe in the sky with Virgo over her womb and the moon at her feet , clothed with the sun

It wasn’t fortune telling at all just showing how God could have proclaimed his Glory in the heavens…it was amazing and EWTN would have never shown anything that went against faith or morals

I bought this dvd for myself on ebay and paid about $7 It was factory sealed and shipped right away

PS my crib is staying up till Candlemas
 
I never meant to imply that the magi weren’t important; I meant that the birth is the focal point of the infancy narratives.
But that is what you said.
The important thing is not how many magi showed up, how they travelled, or what gifts they brought, but that the second person of the Trinity was born, 100% divine and 100% human, for us.
As a theology student you must be aware that the Church does hold tradition in a place that is a bit higher than opinion. Church Tradition does say that there were three and gives them names.

Though that does not really matter, what does matter is that they came to pay homage to Christ. It is an important part of the infancy narrative.
 
The Holy Scriptures are more than just the Gospels.
I was trying to say that all we need to know about Jesus’ life is in the Gospels. We don’t need other yet unfound writings. That is what I was replying to. The poster I was replying to also explained that wanting to learn more and needing to learn more about Jesus are two different things. And for that we agree.
 
I was trying to say that all we need to know about Jesus’ life is in the Gospels. We don’t need other yet unfound writings. That is what I was replying to. The poster I was replying to also explained that wanting to learn more and needing to learn more about Jesus are two different things. And for that we agree.
I still have to disagree with you. We can not truly understand the life of Jesus in the Gospels without all of the Scriptures.

There is no way that we can say that one part of the Scriptures is more important than any other part.

That is the point I am trying to make.
 
There is a serious stretch in historicity to have any number of Magi watching the birth or anywhere near the birth on that wonderful day. They had been travelling for some time when they talked with Herod. They went on and found the The Christ, a young child in a house, not a stable, in a different city. Jesus was born in Bethlehem. He lived in Nazareth. Herod killing boys two and under would also indicate a time frame not in accordance with urban legend. Most of the traditions regarding the Magi are pure speculation handed down–aka legend.

We probably will not change many manger scenes.

Peace.

James Least
 
I was brought up in the Byzantine tradition and only ever heard of three.
 
Christ is born! Glorify Him!

“Today the Virgin gives birth to the Transcendent One, and the earth offers a cave to the Unapproachable One! Angels, with shepherds, glorify Him! The wise men journey with the star! Since for our sake the Eternal God is born as a little child.” (Kontakion).

“A strange and most wonderful mystery do I see: the cave is heaven; The virgin the throne of the cherubim; the manger a room, in which Christ, the God whom nothing can contain, is laid. Him do we praise and magnify.” - Carpathian Nativity Canon
I think I read somewhere that the tradition in Eastern Catholic/Orthodox churches is that there were twelve rather than three magi.
True? Can anyone fill me in?

thanx.
This was posted in the Eastern Catholicism section and asks about tradition in Eastern Catholic/Orthodox churches. 🙂

Welcome to Eastern Catholicism/Orthodoxy where tradition is important and does not depend exclusively on what is in the canon of Sacred Scripture, not that the Latin Church is sola scriptura either 🙂 and where past, present, future, and eternity coexist, now and unto ages of ages.

The entire incarnation is explicable. Why would “scholars” fuss about the number of magi? That discussion does nothing to further theosis as far as I can see, whereas contemplating the journey of the magi does. We know what the tradition is that the OP has asked about.

Now, for some levity on the “facts” try this. 😃
 
Wise men

The Armenians consider that the Wise men (Volkhvy) were 12. This is based on local tradition. The Evangelist does not speak of number of Volkhvy/. Because of number of presented gifts, it is supposed that they were 3. This is an archtype number where allows various interpretations. In ikonography they were imaged as three various aged men: Baltazar - youth, Melchior - grown man, Kaspar - old man. Or three various sides of the world: Baltazar as a magician rom Africa, Melchior as a white man, from Europe, Kaspar as eastern or in eastern clothes from Asia.

There are Greek variant of these three names (Appellikon, Amerin and Damaskon) and also Jewish (Magalat, Galgalat, and Serakin). There is a legend of the 4th Wise Magician who was called Artaban - after the name of brother of persian tsar Darijus. In oldest manubscripts Baltasar is called Bithisar.
 
I assume you’re being facetious. 🙂 Sacred Icons are written very specifically and everything in them has a theological, sacramental meaning and purpose. “Easier” isn’t a consideration. 🙂

Yes, we definitely can imagine the magi did have an entourage of servers to assist them on their very long trip and being such important guys. If we had smell-o-vision I think the Nativity Icon would be quite smelly, all those travelers, and the livestock. At least our Lord is getting a bath. 🙂
5 Loaves:

Thank God Icons are only showing us the SPIRITUAL Reality! That means NO Smell-o-Vision!

I believe if you reread Matthew 2, you’ll find that, by the time the Magi show up, our Lord was not an Infant, and no longer staying in the cave - Our Lord Jesus was called a paidion (a “Toddler”) in the Scripture, and Matthew refers to the place he and His family were living in as an oikian (a “House” or “Home”). So, Thankfully, most of the livestock & travelers (except for the Magi & their retinue) had gone home). Even in the Icon for Nativity, the Magi are “still on the road” as most of the rest of the actions are taking place. They’re a “Coming Attraction”…

Here’s an interesting site to read on the subject:
The Star of Bethlehem
bethlehemstar.net/

I think you can get a lot out of it if you ignore the Protestant Bias at the end.

That’s not to say that our Lord and His Blessed Mother & Foster Father wouldn’t have received several Mikvas, or baths during His first 40 days…

Your Brother in Christ, Michael
 
Christ is born! Glorify Him!

“Today the Virgin gives birth to the Transcendent One, and the earth offers a cave to the Unapproachable One! Angels, with shepherds, glorify Him! The wise men journey with the star! Since for our sake the Eternal God is born as a little child.” (Kontakion).

“A strange and most wonderful mystery do I see: the cave is heaven; The virgin the throne of the cherubim; the manger a room, in which Christ, the God whom nothing can contain, is laid. Him do we praise and magnify.” - Carpathian Nativity Canon

This was posted in the Eastern Catholicism section and asks about tradition in Eastern Catholic/Orthodox churches. 🙂

Welcome to Eastern Catholicism/Orthodoxy where tradition is important and does not depend exclusively on what is in the canon of Sacred Scripture, not that the Latin Church is sola scriptura either 🙂 and where past, present, future, and eternity coexist, now and unto ages of ages.

The entire incarnation is explicable. Why would “scholars” fuss about the number of magi? That discussion does nothing to further theosis as far as I can see, whereas contemplating the journey of the magi does. We know what the tradition is that the OP has asked about.

Now, for some levity on the “facts” try this. 😃
5 loaves:

Out of 5 loaves came 12 baskets of leftovers…

Well said, esp. with the link. :clapping:

Your Brother in Christ, Michael
 
Actually I’ve also heard mention of the number 12, (in particular reference to the Syriac Churches), but cannot recall the source (other than what was already posted). Somehow I seem to think it might have come from from Edessa, but I have nothing to support it beyond a fuzzy 35+ year old memory. It would be interesting to see if any of our Chaldean and/or ACoE members might be able to supply something more tangible.
This comes from “The Book of the Bee”. I can post links later (can’t do much internet while at work).

sacred-texts.com/chr/bb/bb39.htm

NOTE.–In the Book of Adam (iv. 15) the kings are called Hor, king of Persia, Basantar, king of Saba, and Karsundas, king of the East. According to the Book of the Bee (chapter xxxix), the Magi were twelve in number, and their names were:–
Zarwândâd, the son of Artabân.
Hôrmîzdâd, the son of Sîtârûk (Santarôk).
Gûshnâsâph (Gushnasp), the son of Gûndaphar.
Arshakh, the son of Mîhârôk.
These four brought gold.
Zarwândâd, the son of Wârzwâd.
Îryâhô, the son of Kesro (Khusrau).
Artahshesht, the son of Holîtî.
Ashtôn`âbôdân, the son of Shîshrôn.
These four brought myrrh.
Mehârôk, the son of Hûhâm.
Ahshiresh, the son of Hasbân.
Sardâlâh, the son of Baladân.
Merôdâch, the son of Beldarân.
 
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