How many non-denominations in the US and what causes this?

[ChristianKnight]

That would create alot of “Denominations” out of charitable organizations and other groups that have no desire to be a church. The town I just moved from has a “service” 3 times a year, they gather all the protestants from all the churches in town (and some Catholics) go to the civic center and worship together and the clergy take turns preaching. They worship together and have clergy but are not a denomination. Now, Its my opinion that Salvation army should stop meeting sunday mornings or become a denomination. they are trying to do both which is likely to cause problems, but Im not one of them so they dont care what I think .

Anyhow, I guess what I disagree on is your chosen definition of Denomination.

To me they have to intend to be a group of churches. If they don’t intend to be a church I dunno how they can be classified as a group of churches with a clergy.

Well I never went to one that was anti-Cathlic… The ones I have attended for years even have many families that are mixed marriages, like a Catholic husband/Protestant wife and vice versa. if they were preaching anti-Catholic stuff, those families would not be comfortable there. When I was engaged to a Catholic we went together to Catholic Mass followed by my non-denominational Church. there were 3 other families doing the same at that time.

I recently left a church cause there were only 4 people left attending there. I had zero problems with anything they preached or how they worship. I have zero issue with the people who are still there. I do believe its a minor thing. Its no different than the people at the Catholic Parrish down the road leaving it to go to a different one cause that one is ALL college students and they are in their 50s. Comfort level issues have nothing to do with being a denomination.
oneGODoneCHURCH;4517231:

You just assumed that cause there are 4 Baptist churches that they are all different though. Its not a fair assumption. It has nothing to do with only not liking your message, if i declared that all the Catholic parishes in one town are different denominations you’d complain too, and rightfully so. If you did not assume that then it is unreasonable to claim they are not countable… they phone book generally divides them by denomination for you.

I can count that high quite easily, depends on the town but prob around 25. That one town has 4 Catholic Churches and 9 Baptist ones does not mean that they should be counted as 13 Denominations.

No, I didn’t provide a separate “Source” to refute your link, instead I refuted it myself. Would it somehow be more credible if I made a website with what I typed? Anyone can say anything on a website. IF you post a source and people show you 25 things in it that are lies, then why do you need a link? I asked for the first source cause you made a claim with no real reason for it. I answered with with alot of logical arguments that you then ignored and requested a link instead. Not sure what sort of link you want.

Hey, you quoted it as me saying that, but it was the other fellow saying that, can you edit it so people don’t think I said that?

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

That would create alot of “Denominations” out of charitable organizations and other groups that have no desire to be a church. The town I just moved from has a “service” 3 times a year, they gather all the protestants from all the churches in town (and some Catholics) go to the civic center and worship together and the clergy take turns preaching. They worship together and have clergy but are not a denomination. Now, Its my opinion that Salvation army should stop meeting sunday mornings or become a denomination. they are trying to do both which is likely to cause problems, but Im not one of them so they dont care what I think .

Anyhow, I guess what I disagree on is your chosen definition of Denomination.

To me they have to intend to be a group of churches. If they don’t intend to be a church I dunno how they can be classified as a group of churches with a clergy.

Well I never went to one that was anti-Cathlic… The ones I have attended for years even have many families that are mixed marriages, like a Catholic husband/Protestant wife and vice versa. if they were preaching anti-Catholic stuff, those families would not be comfortable there. When I was engaged to a Catholic we went together to Catholic Mass followed by my non-denominational Church. there were 3 other families doing the same at that time.

I recently left a church cause there were only 4 people left attending there. I had zero problems with anything they preached or how they worship. I have zero issue with the people who are still there. I do believe its a minor thing. Its no different than the people at the Catholic Parrish down the road leaving it to go to a different one cause that one is ALL college students and they are in their 50s. Comfort level issues have nothing to do with being a denomination.
oneGODoneCHURCH;4517231:

You just assumed that cause there are 4 Baptist churches that they are all different though. Its not a fair assumption. It has nothing to do with only not liking your message, if i declared that all the Catholic parishes in one town are different denominations you’d complain too, and rightfully so. If you did not assume that then it is unreasonable to claim they are not countable… they phone book generally divides them by denomination for you.

I can count that high quite easily, depends on the town but prob around 25. That one town has 4 Catholic Churches and 9 Baptist ones does not mean that they should be counted as 13 Denominations.

No, I didn’t provide a separate “Source” to refute your link, instead I refuted it myself. Would it somehow be more credible if I made a website with what I typed? Anyone can say anything on a website. IF you post a source and people show you 25 things in it that are lies, then why do you need a link? I asked for the first source cause you made a claim with no real reason for it. I answered with with alot of logical arguments that you then ignored and requested a link instead. Not sure what sort of link you want.

I don’t assume that because there are four baptist church they have different beliefs.What i go on is that one is a southern baptist , one is primitive baptist, another is American baptist, then another is a independent baptist. It is not as if they are all say southern baptist with just four different congregations. these are 4 separate denominations. the same for the 2 different Presbyterians, the 2 Lutherans they are separate from one another.

lets put it this way as a catholic i can go to any catholic church in the world and fully participate in the the sacraments. but lets say in am a southern baptist and i go to services at a American baptist service i can not full be a participant without changing my denomination to it. Catholic is Catholic, baptist is not baptist. Methodist is not Methodist etc…

I can go on what I know as well but you asked for a source and one was provided. now having provided one if you disagree with me and the source please provide a source to refute it and support your stance.

 

[Syele]

It is just my experience. Not worth much, I know, but it is one thing that I have. It is most evident in non-denominational groups. There was a non-denominational martial arts group that I looked to join. The theology that they required you to agree to was very anti-Catholic. I contacted them about it and was told I had no place in the group.

That sounds like a frustrating experience. Remember though that non-denominationals are still protestant, so are likely not to have a Catholic viewpoint. While the inter-denominationals are much more likely to welcome Catholics with open arms. and as I said in the beginning, lots of inter-denominational churches call themselves non-denominational for some reason.

Would it be better if I said that for those who leave over theology, there are no minor issues?

I would say its better. The problem with this discussion is that it is dancing around the real issues IMO. And that is why I usually post to complain when people start with the whole 30,000 denominations line of debate. I mean look at this thread… someone posted to ask about non-denominations and instead we are now discussing the denominations. lol next comes the fact that CAF has no group defined definition of denomination. One person says it to mean what I would say “a group of churches under one authority” So a group of something besides churches under an authority or a group of churches with no authority wouldn’t count. others have different definitions ranging all the way down to “any belief system that is vaguely Christian” (These are the people who jump in the thread and declare there a millions of denominations.) And we could debate the number till we all die of redundancy but never make any real point.

Really, I have only noticed three types of people wanting to bring up the “30,000 denominations” 1. People who are upset about disunity among Christians 2. People who just like to try and make Protestants look bad for fun. 3. People who are complaining that the number is wrong.

In this thread though we were answering about NON_denominations. and one of the main things that can be truthfully said about them is that they believe that DENOMINATIONS(and thus disunity among Christians) are BAD. therefore they agree totally with the #1 group above. This is why I don’t get the point of it being brought up in this particular thread Unless its only to poke us Protestants with a sharp stick to see how loud we howl.

 

[Snow]

Actually, quite a bit earlier than that. However, as far when this was defined as an intrinsic practice… the Iconoclastic Controversy played a role in this.

 

[Syele]

I don’t assume that because there are four baptist church they have different beliefs.What i go on is that one is a southern baptist , one is primitive baptist, another is American baptist, then another is a independent baptist. It is not as if they are all say southern baptist with just four different congregations. these are 4 separate denominations. the same for the 2 different Presbyterians, the 2 Lutherans they are separate from one another.

4+2+2 = 8 not 28,000 and the logic “wow 8 is alot so there must be thousands more” is bad math. Try this link.

lets put it this way as a catholic i can go to any catholic church in the world and fully participate in the the sacraments. but lets say in am a southern baptist and i go to services at a American baptist service i can not full be a participant without changing my denomination to it. Catholic is Catholic, baptist is not baptist. Methodist is not Methodist etc…

Not that many denominations have closed communion. There are 5,800 “American Baptist” congregations. So I think its fair to say that an American Baptist is an American Baptist, they can go to any American Baptist church in the world and participate in the sacraments.

I can go on what I know as well but you asked for a source and one was provided. now having provided one if you disagree with me and the source please provide a source to refute it and support your stance.

Alright here are some sources:

In any case, once we inquire into the source of the infamous 25,000-Protestant-denomination figure one point becomes crystal clear. Whenever and at whatever point Barrett compares true denominations and differences among either Protestants or Evangelicals to those of Roman Catholicism, Roman Catholicism emerges almost as splintered as Protestantism, and even more splintered than Evangelicalism. That levels the playing field significantly. Whatever charge of “doctrinal chaos” Roman Catholic apologists wish to level against Protestantism may be leveled with equal force—and perhaps even greater force—against the doctrinal chaos of Roman Catholicism. Obviously, the Roman Catholic apologist can take little comfort in the fact that he has only sixteen denominations while Protestantism has twenty-one; and he can take even less comfort in the fact that while Evangelicalism has no divisional breakdown, Roman Catholicism has at least four major divisions.

So, yes, I agree, Svendsen’s clarifications of Barrett’s meaning and his rebuke are worthwhile, and to be heeded accordingly;

So, in this matter, I think I will side with my Protestant bretheren by saying that citing figures in the tens of thousands for the number of denominations would not be a charitable way to describe the situation, even though it is possible to argue that this is true. If ever I were asked to give a figure myself, I would probably go with a “larger” definition of denomination, and say: 30-something.

 

[MDK]

Where is that written?

The things written in Scriptures were written by members of the Catholic Church, and the Scriptures assembled by this same Church into the Bible… without this Church, you would have no Bible for which to ask people questions like “where is that written?” Furthermore, that same Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth… not Scriptures… so where is it written… we answer, does it have to be written to be true?

 

[Snow]

The things written in Scriptures were written by members of the Catholic Church, and the Scriptures assembled by this same Church into the Bible… without this Church, you would have no Bible for which to ask people questions like “where is that written?” Furthermore, that same Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth… not Scriptures… so where is it written… we answer, does it have to be written to be true?

Newsflash: This just in… Majority of the Bible written by Jews. New Testament written by the likes of Peter, James, John, Paul etc… not a one of them a member of the RCC.

 

[Salonika]

I think the reason for so many denominations is human nature and the fact that people see and understand things differently. Also people have different priorities in what they want/need in a church/denomination and each of us has a unique personality.

At the risk of offending some people, and I do not intend this, I think it is rather like other areas where there are a range of options eg sport, art, hobbies where some people prefer one rather than the other. Sometimes we can’t say why we prefer one sport over another other times we can.

Some people will choose a denomination/church whose theology reflects their own, others will choose it because they like the way the theology is expressed both in the form of services or because of the works the church is involved in. Some people want to be part of a church/denimination where they are encouraged to develop their own understandings, others will consider this to be irrelevant or even wrong.

Think also our answers to this question probably tell us more about the person posting rather than the reasons for their being so many churches/denominations.

 

[MDK]

Newsflash: This just in… Majority of the Bible written by Jews. New Testament written by the likes of Peter, James, John, Paul etc… not a one of them a member of the RCC.

Very disingenuous of you for starters… the context is obviously NT discussing Catholics writing the Scriptures, as the Catholic Church did not exist at the time OT was written. The context was also that all Scriptures for the Bible, OT and NT were chosen by the Catholic Church, as both were written by that time. However, we really don’t count on you trying to interpret correctly. My post was meant to be read using common sense and intelligence, not intentionally misinterpreted in whatever means one could…

How many things you deny or don’t know… born Jew and became Catholic… LOL on your statement that Peter was not Catholic… that’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all day. Congrats.

Peter, James, Paul, John, Luke, Mark,… all were Catholic.

 

[Snow]

Very disingenuous of you for starters… the context is obviously NT discussing Catholics writing the Scriptures, as the Catholic Church did not exist at the time OT was written. The context was also that all Scriptures for the Bible, OT and NT were chosen by the Catholic Church, as both were written by that time. However, we really don’t count on you trying to interpret correctly. My post was meant to be read using common sense and intelligence, not intentionally misinterpreted in whatever means one could…

So let’s get this straight. Your post claimed that the Scriptures were written by members of the Catholic Church but claim that common sense and intelligence would allow someone to correctly understand that the entire OT was written by Jews, not Catholics but what you really meant is that the books of the Bible were selected by the Catholic Church… and by that you imply that I possess neither common sense or intelligence.

Newsflash: The Jewish Bible/Old Testament books were selected by Jews, not Catholics. Furthermore, depending on how you look at it, the Catholics didn’t exactly pick all the NT books themselves - For 10 Pauline Epistles they merely agreed with the “heretic” Marcion. Beyond that, the RCC has picked a number of other books into their canon that the overwhelmingly vast majority of Christian denominations disagree with - that is most of Christianity thinks you got it wrong.

How many things you deny or don’t know… born Jew and became Catholic… LOL on your statement that Peter was not Catholic… that’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all day. Congrats.

Peter, James, Paul, John, Luke, Mark,… all were Catholic.

Historical proof please.

Prediction: nothing forthcoming.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

QUOTE=Syele;4528057]4+2+2 = 8 not 28,000 and the logic “wow 8 is alot so there must be thousands more” is bad math. Try this link.

Not that many denominations have closed communion. There are 5,800 “American Baptist” congregations. So I think its fair to say that an American Baptist is an American Baptist, they can go to any American Baptist church in the world and participate in the sacraments.

You are correct 8 is not 28,000 however I was not taking an actual count but giving an example I also never said that all 28000 were represented in my little city of only 40,000 people. I would also agree that an American Baptist is an American Baptist that does not equate them to being a southern baptist. or a free will baptist or an independent baptist. Now lets also remember that I never said the the number given was correct I said that looking around at all the different denoms and independents/ non denoms in my town I could see that number as being true.

Thank you for the source I do not have time at this moment to do more than glance at it but I will give it a going over.

 

[ralphinal]

That sounds like a frustrating experience. Remember though that non-denominationals are still protestant, so are likely not to have a Catholic viewpoint. While the inter-denominationals are much more likely to welcome Catholics with open arms. and as I said in the beginning, lots of inter-denominational churches call themselves non-denominational for some reason.

What bothered me was not the actual statement of faith. It was saying that if I did not agree 100%, I could not join. In other words, I was not Christian. If it had been reduced to basic Christian thought (Jesus is Second person of Trinity, True God and True Man, Died for us and rose Again, Will return in Glory to Judge, Reward for the Faithful), it can be non-denominaitonal and not anti-anybody.

I am confused about the inter- verses non- issue.

I would say its better. The problem with this discussion is that it is dancing around the real issues IMO. And that is why I usually post to complain when people start with the whole 30,000 denominations line of debate. I mean look at this thread… someone posted to ask about non-denominations and instead we are now discussing the denominations. lol next comes the fact that CAF has no group defined definition of denomination. One person says it to mean what I would say “a group of churches under one authority” So a group of something besides churches under an authority or a group of churches with no authority wouldn’t count. others have different definitions ranging all the way down to “any belief system that is vaguely Christian” (These are the people who jump in the thread and declare there a millions of denominations.) And we could debate the number till we all die of redundancy but never make any real point.

Really, I have only noticed three types of people wanting to bring up the “30,000 denominations” 1. People who are upset about disunity among Christians 2. People who just like to try and make Protestants look bad for fun. 3. People who are complaining that the number is wrong.

And I for one do not like that figure. I think that it is much lower, and best looked at if we go in large groups.

In this thread though we were answering about NON_denominations. and one of the main things that can be truthfully said about them is that they believe that DENOMINATIONS(and thus disunity among Christians) are BAD. therefore they agree totally with the #1 group above. This is why I don’t get the point of it being brought up in this particular thread Unless its only to poke us Protestants with a sharp stick to see how loud we howl.

Like anyone on here would do that

 

[MDK]

So let’s get this straight. Your post claimed that the Scriptures were written by members of the Catholic Church but claim that common sense and intelligence would allow someone to correctly understand that the entire OT was written by Jews, not Catholics but what you really meant is that the books of the Bible were selected by the Catholic Church… and by that you imply that I possess neither common sense or intelligence.

Newsflash: The Jewish Bible/Old Testament books were selected by Jews, not Catholics. Furthermore, depending on how you look at it, the Catholics didn’t exactly pick all the NT books themselves - For 10 Pauline Epistles they merely agreed with the “heretic” Marcion. Beyond that, the RCC has picked a number of other books into their canon that the overwhelmingly vast majority of Christian denominations disagree with - that is most of Christianity thinks you got it wrong.

Historical proof please.

Prediction: nothing forthcoming.

Your interpretation and claims are once again false… are we surprised by this? Somehow, the phrase getting it straight really does not go with your name. I wish someday it would. Do you intentionally misinterpret, or are you really having difficulty understanding the plain meaning of things?

The person reading with common sense and intelligence would know that Catholics could not have written the OT, because the Catholic Church did not exist then… therefore, how could there even be Catholics? This is common sense, is it not?

Next, the context of this thread is Christianity… non-denoms commonly refer to those who call themselves Christian. There was no attempt to bring in or discuss who wrote the OT, as it is really not relevant, except to those who desire to distort the plain meaning of the discussion for whatever motivation.

Whether you possess no common sense nor intelligence, I don’t know. You’re once again wrong in claiming that’s what I said. In plain words, I said and meant that you’re not applying either to this discussion. I hope you have these and start to employ them to your own benefit.

You’re once again wrong. The Catholic Church chose the canon and closed it. This is the authority, and there is none other established by Christ on earth. It’s not up for a popular vote, and so it doesn’t matter who disagrees with this. It’s hard for those who put their trust in a false prophet like Joe Smith to see these truths, but nevertheless, the truth is the truth. If you’re offended, I suggest you get on the side of truth, instead of opposing it. LDS is not Christian, has no authority from God whatsoever, and so cannot accurately describe what is and is not truth.

Here’s a news flash for you… let’s go to another thread to discuss this, as a deeper discussion of these instead of how it applies to the thread is getting off topic. Historical proof… Scriptures and Tradition. However, we need to see some evidence that you will even accept the truth… thus far, you’re batting average is close to zero.

 

[Syele]

What bothered me was not the actual statement of faith. It was saying that if I did not agree 100%, I could not join. In other words, I was not Christian. If it had been reduced to basic Christian thought (Jesus is Second person of Trinity, True God and True Man, Died for us and rose Again, Will return in Glory to Judge, Reward for the Faithful), it can be non-denominaitonal and not anti-anybody.

I am confused about the inter- verses non- issue.

Inter-Denominational = all Christian denominations are welcome there. This is common for charitable organizations and other “Christian” groups who want to rally around a specific point. For one example, My friend is starting a inter-denominational pro-life group. Mnay churches has also taken this Welcome all Christians stance. And its a church that was inter-denominational that I grew up in. It is a very theologically diverse church. Things taught were often presented in a style where you could see what all different people believe on a topic. thoughtful conversation on controversial topics was allowed, but one could not argue that “non-essential” things made the other person “not Christian.”

Non-denominational means that they believe having an earthly central authority (A denominational head) is wrong because it causes disunity. “statements of Faith” or creeds are usually rather short, not encompassing many things. As a result most have the same beliefs on paper, but what they believe tends to be skewed towards what the particular Pastor believes. Differing viewpoints are not always respected. If the church loses their pastor and gets a new one, what is taught from the pulpit might change as well.

It sounds like you went to the martial arts group expecting it to be inter-denominational when it was non-denominational. both have a focus on a kind of all-for-one mentality, but are quite different in how they respond to differences of faith. To further complicate matters lots of inter-denominational churches say they are non-denominational.

And I for one do not like that figure. I think that it is much lower, and best looked at if we go in large groups.

Going in large groups makes discussion possible IMO. Saying there are tens of thousands just reads “overwhelming to discuss”.

Like anyone on here would do that

*Syele begins a sharp stick collection.