How many of the prophecies were legitimately fulfilled?

[coolduude]

Hi all,

I was reading through the fulfilled Messianic prophecies and I was thinking: how many of these were legitimately fulfilled? As opposed to being made up fulfilled. When I say that, I mean couldn’t the Gospel writers have made things up so it all fits? No one alive today was there 2,000 years ago so couldn’t have a lot of the fulfilled prophecies been fabricated?

I apologize if I sound sacreligious; I’m just trying to understand Christ better.

Thanks,
coolduude

 

[NotWorthy]

Hi all,

I was reading through the fulfilled Messianic prophecies and I was thinking: how many of these were legitimately fulfilled? As opposed to being made up fulfilled. When I say that, I mean couldn’t the Gospel writers have made things up so it all fits? No one alive today was there 2,000 years ago so couldn’t have a lot of the fulfilled prophecies been fabricated?

I apologize if I sound sacreligious; I’m just trying to understand Christ better.

Thanks,
coolduude

IF the bible was written today, you could make that accusation. But with some of the Gospels written while those who witnessed the miracles were still alive, it would have been hard to do this.

 

[coolduude]

IF the bible was written today, you could make that accusation. But with some of the Gospels written while those who witnessed the miracles were still alive, it would have been hard to do this.

Why would the fact that the Bible was written 2,000 years ago change the idea that some of the Prophecies could have been made up fulfilled?

I guess I fail to see your point.

 

[NotWorthy]

Why would the fact that the Bible was written 2,000 years ago change the idea that some of the Prophecies could have been made up fulfilled?

I guess I fail to see your point.

Well, one of the prophecies was that the lame should walk and the blind should see (Isaiah). If Jesus did not make the lame walk and the blind see, then people of the time would have been crying, “What? I never heard of these miracles!”

 

[Zerilos]

Well, one of the prophecies was that the lame should walk and the blind should see (Isaiah). If Jesus did not make the lame walk and the blind see, then people of the time would have been crying, “What? I never heard of these miracles!”

Of course, there were several “healers” during Jesus’ time about whom these claims were made, and to great effect. Miracles were attributed to a great many followers of Greek and Roman gods. Claims of miracles were (and still are) like religious currency, and to be a legit god you had to produce the miracles. The earliest gospel written was Mark, likely some 30 - 40 years after Jesus’ death, meaning of course that almost almost everyone alive in Palestine while Jesus was alive, was dead when the gospel of Mark became available. Furthermore, The mass majority of 1st century converts to Christianity were residents of Asia Minor and Greece, who likely had never been to Galilee or Jerusalem and were relying entirely on 3rd - 10th hand accounts. Finally, there were people arguing that these miracles never happened (Celsus for one and the Greek Jews Justin Martyr wrote about), but we have scant knowledge of what they said as so much was destroyed when the Christians purged the region of contradictory literature. What little we know of these objections can only be found in the rebuttals written by various church fathers (Origin, Justin Martyr, Iranaeus, etc.).

 

[USMCatholic]

I find myself curious as to why you felt the need to start another thread on the subject of messianic prophecies. There are several other ones currently ongoing in this very section of the forum, including one or two that you started. The links and information given in those discussions seem to pretty exhaustive. I’m sure you could also try searching the forums to find answers to any questions you have on messianic prophecies.
The question you pose in this thread seems an odd one. You ask how we can trust the New Testament account of Jesus fulfilling prophecies. Your real question seems to be: is the Bible actually God’s word and how do we know that? Quite a different question.
If that’s not what you’re driving at, then you seem instead to hold the OT as God’s word, but the NT as highly suspect. In which case, again, the specific case of messianic prophecies is not the real point.
To answer your question at face value: all the prophecies said to be fulfilled in the NT were “legitimately fulfilled.” We know this because the Bible is the revealed Word of God. If you wish to contest that assumption, then this becomes a whole other discussion. If you simply wish to know how historical research from sources other than the Bible corroborate its account, perhaps to have more ammo in your apologetic arsenal, than that also changes the nature of this discussion.

 

[coolduude]

@USMCatholiv:

I didn’t really see those other threads so I posted this one. Better than derailing the other ones right?

Anyway, thanks for the helpful responses guys

I actually found a good website by Craig Bloomberg about the historical reliability of the Gospels. It was good.

But my biggest conflict still lies with one specific prophecy (I had this in mind when I made this thread). It’s the 30 pieces of silver one. It was prophecized that the Messiah would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver and, according to the Gospels, that’s exactly what happened. But for all we know, the writers could have made that up just to convert Jews or Gentiles who hadn’t accepted Christ yet.

So I guess I just have to have faith that the writers didn’t make stuff up?

 

[Zerilos]

The question you pose in this thread seems an odd one. You ask how we can trust the New Testament account of Jesus fulfilling prophecies. Your real question seems to be: is the Bible actually God’s word and how do we know that? Quite a different question.
If that’s not what you’re driving at, then you seem instead to hold the OT as God’s word, but the NT as highly suspect. In which case, again, the specific case of messianic prophecies is not the real point.

Sure it is the point. If the argument is: a literal interpretation of the bible allows us to believe that Jesus is the fulfillment of prophecy; then pointing out that the bible is a text filled with fabrications seems a valid counter to the original argument.

To answer your question at face value: all the prophecies said to be fulfilled in the NT were “legitimately fulfilled.” We know this because the Bible is the revealed Word of God. If you wish to contest that assumption, then this becomes a whole other discussion. If you simply wish to know how historical research from sources other than the Bible corroborate its account, perhaps to have more ammo in your apologetic arsenal, than that also changes the nature of this discussion.

I’ll only say that I know that the bible is not the revealed word of god and the mythical aspects of the book are completely uncorroborated by any historical source. Sure the OT and NT make references to real life locations and figures, but so does a Tom Clancy novel. If the ability to integrate real life historical realities into a fabricated tale makes the tale true, the the Book of Mormon and Quran are true as well and are the Islamic Hadith.

I did notice that you didn’t actually deny any of the individual statements I made in my first response.

 

[NotWorthy]

@USMCatholiv:

I didn’t really see those other threads so I posted this one. Better than derailing the other ones right?

Anyway, thanks for the helpful responses guys

I actually found a good website by Craig Bloomberg about the historical reliability of the Gospels. It was good.

But my biggest conflict still lies with one specific prophecy (I had this in mind when I made this thread). It’s the 30 pieces of silver one. It was prophecized that the Messiah would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver and, according to the Gospels, that’s exactly what happened. But for all we know, the writers could have made that up just to convert Jews or Gentiles who hadn’t accepted Christ yet.

So I guess I just have to have faith that the writers didn’t make stuff up?

And that’s the thrust of the whole “Salvation” thing. No matter what, you still have to have faith in that which you cannot see. So, if God tips over 99 of the dominoes, you still have to have faith to trust that the 100th domino will still fall.

 

[NotWorthy]

And that’s the thrust of the whole “Salvation” thing. No matter what, you still have to have faith in that which you cannot see. So, if God tips over 99 of the dominoes, you still have to have faith to trust that the 100th domino will still fall.

I think another way to put it is, “He’s going to lead you to the water, but He won’t make you drink”.

 

[buffalo]

700 or so prophecies were fulfilled in one man Jesus.

The odds are like going into the desert blindfolded and on the very first try picking up the only red grain of sand. The odds are just astounding.

 

[lizaanne]

Hi all,

I was reading through the fulfilled Messianic prophecies and I was thinking: how many of these were legitimately fulfilled? As opposed to being made up fulfilled. When I say that, I mean couldn’t the Gospel writers have made things up so it all fits? No one alive today was there 2,000 years ago so couldn’t have a lot of the fulfilled prophecies been fabricated?

I apologize if I sound sacreligious; I’m just trying to understand Christ better.

Thanks,
coolduude

Highly recommended reading - this author discusses a mathematical calculation of the probability of the fulfillment of prophecy and the veracity of the Gospel accounts (among other aspects):
Case for Christ - Lee Strobel

~Liza

 

[fisherman_carl]

I think that we can take the bible as being credible. Because if you look at the history of the apostles, those who wrote the new testament, we see them going around spreading the gospel, starting churches, but basically being poor, and poorly treated; we see them being kicked out of synagogues, beaten, and eventually martyred. In fact all of the 12 disciples were martyred. So, if they had been lying on their testimonies they would have died for a lie.

How many people would die for a lie? How many liars would die for their lies? I don’t think any would. Not only that they did not benefit financially from their preaching like we see some TV evangelists today. They were poor. They have no reason to lie because they would not benefit from it. The Jews wanted them dead. The Romans wanted them dead. Wouldn’t it be easier just to pack it in and take up Judaism or Zeus or something than to propagate a lie?

Next we see the first 300 years of Christianity as being filled with martyrs due to the Roman persecutions. Again, would these people die for what they thought was a lie? Most people wouldn’t die to be part of a club or organization of some kind. There is obviously something beyond the natural realm that would possess a person to die for their belief. There must have been something that utterly convinced them that what they believed was true. The only logical conclusion is that what they believed was in fact true.

Example of a prophecy fulfilled:
Take a look at Jesus on the cross - He said, “My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?”

This is a fulfillment of Psalm 22.

Jesus was quoting the first line of Psalm 22 on the cross to indicate to his disciples that he was the fulfillment of that prophesy.

“Since many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the events that have been fulfilled among us, just as those who were eyewitnesses from the beginning and ministers of the word have handed them down to us, I too have decided, after investigating everything accurately anew, to write it down in an orderly sequence for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may realize the certainty of the teachings you have received.”

• Luke 1:1-4