How many of you Traditionalists

[latinmasslover]

But you have plenty of time and energy to devote to CAF?

I already said that I had to stop temporarily for personal reasons *and *that I’ve signed up for September.
I have plenty of time for study, teaching, and socializing, which posting on CAF is part of. It’s also part of teaching, since I currently am not doing this at the church. I do have a life, and it doesn’t (unfortunately) consist of spending my every waking minute in a classroom. You have no right holding that against me. The question could be thrown back: why are *you *here so much?

 

[SemperFidelis]

But you have plenty of time and energy to devote to CAF?

Would you not consider CAF an opportunity for evangelization and and an opportunity for such Catholics to influence other Catholics in a traditional way?

 

[brotherhrolf]

Does choir practice count? Three hours a week? Does teaching the confirmation class for high school teenagers count? Does serving in the ministry to alienated Catholics count?

Surprisingly, John, as you get older, you will find that your children grow up and move out. You will find that you tend to slow down and that after a week of driving 25 miles to work one way in post-Katrina traffic, the idea of running around town has little interest to you. You will find that you would rather wait for the DVD to come out than go to a movie. You find that you are perfectly capable of cooking as well as many of the restaurants in town.

So, yes, John. I spend time on CAF - and thoroughly enjoy it. But to make the argument that “traditionalists” only “talk the talk”…:tsktsk:

 

[rwoehmke]

Traditionalist in the sense that I am alarmed that the Church is going over a cliff or loving the Tridentine mass? Hardly John, hardly. I recognize that the Church has problems, but I do not fear that it will go down. After all the majority of Bishops in the 5th century were Arians. Did the Church crash and burn?

I taught CCD from the Fall of 1964 till about 20 years ago. Mostly 11th grade Confirmation classes. About 20 years ago I joined our pastor in teaching converts for about 5 years until we hired our 4th full time DRE who got RCIA going. Since then I have been a teaching member of the RCIA team. In addition I have taught several sessions of adult RE, led a Bible Study group for the last 5 years, and particpated in a Catholic Mens Prayer breakfast for 20 years. Some where in years past I was one of the leaders of our Catholic Charismatic Prayer Group for about 15 years.

Now then, while I am not what I would call a “Traditionalist” , I am a solid well educated Catholic who lived through some times of “experimental liturgy” which now thank the Lord has not happened in my parish for at least several decades.

 

[SemperFidelis]

Yet, as this particular thread shows…most of them “talk the talk”, but don’t “walk the walk”.

Personally, I drive an hour to go to a TLM. I drive a big truck that uses a lot of gas. I am a college student and I don’t have the money to drive that far more than once a week. There are only two other Catholic parishes closer for me, and neither of the two local parishes would allow me to teach more than once. The parish I went through RCIA would ban me after one class. They regularly taught heretical beliefs (even espoused from clergy) and they would ban me for teaching the unadultered Truth of the Catholic Faith. The other parish’s RCIA is even worse. I know a girl who came out of there who didn’t understand why she couldn’t have communion at her Episcopal “church” back home. She had no idea about the Real Presence. You think they would let me teach RCIA or CCD there? How do you many other traditional Catholics don’t have other, similiar stories? How do you know how many traditional Catholics on this forum haven’t even read this thread, or didn’t feel like responding? You assume way too much, and all to suit your agenda.

 

[Brenda_V]

Where do the children go to prepare for their Sacraments?

School.

Okay - so your children are still getting catechized. Now you just need to ask for adult formation classes, whether for those wishing to convert or those just wishing to learn more.

What I am/was mostly interested in, it this:

On countless threads, there is a “core” of “Traditional Catholics”, who constantly espouse their belief that the Church is running off a cliff of destruction.

They can quote scripture, encyclicals, other Church documents, you name it, in a heartbeat…to back their position(s).

Yet, as this particular thread shows…most of them “talk the talk”, but don’t “walk the walk”.

I appreciate all the insightful responses to this thread.

What I have found, is what I suspected all along. Of all the many who posted to say they actively participated in teaching their faith, precious few of the posts came from the folks on this forum who so freely, vigourously and sometimes even viciously espouse their “traditional” beliefs.

Brother John - both Brotherhrolf and Latinmasslover have responded well to your question. I did want to add that many “traditionalist” Catholics take their faith seriously and their duty to educate their own children as their children’s first teachers probably more seriously. I know my daughter’s may have gone to CCD and Confirmation prep but I educated them at home as well. Religion was always a topic of discussion in our home.

One of the things I have learned as I have gotten older is I can only have an affect on my small corner of the world and sometimes that means with my family only - there is a ripple effect to this.

Brenda V.

 

[Lhhs]

, but don’t “walk the walk”…

What is Walk The Walk ?

If it is teaching CCD and RCIA, then true I don’t Walk That Walk

 

[CatholicCajun]

Due to my work schedule conflicting with the CCD schedule, not possible to teach, we are at a new parish and my understanding is that there is someone already doing RCIA, so my husband and I do the Lightweigh with others, it’s a Catholic weight loss program, very rooted in the traditions of the church. God Bless.

 

[CatQuilt]

I taught 9th grade CCD last year. It was a wonderful experience but I wanted to work on another project in the parish so I didn’t do it again this year…

 

[Brother_John]

So, yes, John. I spend time on CAF - and thoroughly enjoy it. But to make the argument that “traditionalists” only “talk the talk”…:tsktsk:

cheers, bro

 

[Brother_John]

Would you not consider CAF an opportunity for evangelization and and an opportunity for such Catholics to influence other Catholics in a traditional way?

But, rather than the same folks wearing each other out on the same issues…given the knowledge that some people seem to have here…it would seem almost sinful for them not to impart all that knowledge on our youth?

I mean, I can’t begin to rattle off half the stuff that some in the TC threads can, so let’s get out there among 'em and put it to use!

 

[palmas85]

What I am/was mostly interested in, it this:

On countless threads, there is a “core” of “Traditional Catholics”, who constantly espouse their belief that the Church is running off a cliff of destruction.

They can quote scripture, encyclicals, other Church documents, you name it, in a heartbeat…to back their position(s).

Yet, as this particular thread shows…most of them “talk the talk”, but don’t “walk the walk”.

I appreciate all the insightful responses to this thread.

What I have found, is what I suspected all along. Of all the many who posted to say they actively participated in teaching their faith, precious few of the posts came from the folks on this forum who so freely, vigourously and sometimes even viciously espouse their "traditional" beliefs.

I find that remark to be somewhat insulting. You make it sound as if traditionalists don’t care and don’t want to be involved. I would assume that the number that is involved percentage wise is about the same as in the more progressive circles.

But lets look at things realistically for a minute. Liberal Parishes outnumber Traditional Parishes by a substantial margin. Not a small number of these progressive Parishes have as Directors of religious education extremely liberal and very progressive people who want little or nothing to do with anything that even comes close to being conservative or traditional in any way. I have faced that particular problem for years, usually having to go to either the Pastor or in one case the Auxuillary Bishop in order to get things straightened out. In that one memorable case, my teaching that practicing homosexuality was indeed frowned upon by the Church, does that sound politically correct enough?, was not at all consistent with the Directors view that all sexuality was a gift that should be enjoyed to the fullest. The Bishop agreed with me but the Director basically told him to go climb a rope and to butt out of Parish business. He said that as he was hired by the Parish Council, he worked for them, not the Diocese and he therefore was not required to take orders from the Diocese.

I will guarantee you that particular director is far from unique. Many of these people are well entrenched and run their programs as their own little fiefdoms in which they do, say and teach pretty much exactly what they want, regardless as to whether or not it fits in with Catholic teaching at all.

That is more than likely the reason you don’t see more Traditionalists involved. If you can get your foot in the door and in many places that is a very big if, you are constantly being monitored, watched over and having your lessons derided by the more progressive and liberal minded. You are pretty much required to adhere to lesson plans that far from teaching anything about Catholicism meander mindlessly around with stirring platitudes about love respect and tolerance for all. Yes, the teaching of the Social Gospel,where the ultimate aim of religion is the ethical raising of society is pretty big in RCIA and CCD classes.

I am quite sure that my experience in this area is far from rare and in fact is probably the norm, except in the more traditional and conservative Parishes.

Now I know that there are good solid Parishes with good solid catechisis, but from attending workshops over the years and going to re-certification classes, as well as instructing in several different parishes , I can tell you, the progressives have pretty close to full control and have no intention of giving it up.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

What I am/was mostly interested in, it this:

On countless threads, there is a “core” of “Traditional Catholics”, who constantly espouse their belief that the Church is running off a cliff of destruction.

They can quote scripture, encyclicals, other Church documents, you name it, in a heartbeat…to back their position(s).

Yet, as this particular thread shows…most of them “talk the talk”, but don’t “walk the walk”.

I appreciate all the insightful responses to this thread.

What I have found, is what I suspected all along. Of all the many who posted to say they actively participated in teaching their faith, precious few of the posts came from the folks on this forum who so freely, vigourously and sometimes even viciously espouse their “traditional” beliefs.

Hmm…

You know, when I read your original post, I actually thought that you were waiting to pounce, to say, “Aha, see, I knew you traditionalists just whined and complained and really don’t contribute much to the Church on any substantive level.” I guess my estimation was not far off.

Here’s some other questions. How many traditionalists assist at Mass every week? How many traditionalists spend time in Eucharistic adoration or pray the rosary and other devotions? How many are raising their children in the Faith? Activities which can be just as valuable as the more active vocations of teaching RCIA.

Just as in religious life there will be some called to a more active order which participates in teaching and other activities, there are others who will feel called to a more contemplative life of prayer and study. To each his own.

Actually there are some traditionalists on here whose posts are so informative and contain so much common sense that I only wish they could post more often.

 

[brigid12]

I find that remark to be somewhat insulting. You make it sound as if traditionalists don’t care and don’t want to be involved. I would assume that the number that is involved percentage wise is about the same as in the more progressive circles.

But lets look at things realistically for a minute. Liberal Parishes outnumber Traditional Parishes by a substantial margin. Not a small number of these progressive Parishes have as Directors of religious education extremely liberal and very progressive people who want little or nothing to do with anything that even comes close to being conservative or traditional in any way. I have faced that particular problem for years, usually having to go to either the Pastor or in one case the Auxuillary Bishop in order to get things straightened out. In that one memorable case, my teaching that practicing homosexuality was indeed frowned upon by the Church, does that sound politically correct enough?, was not at all consistent with the Directors view that all sexuality was a gift that should be enjoyed to the fullest. The Bishop agreed with me but the Director basically told him to go climb a rope and to butt out of Parish business. He said that as he was hired by the Parish Council, he worked for them, not the Diocese and he therefore was not required to take orders from the Diocese.

I will guarantee you that particular director is far from unique. Many of these people are well entrenched and run their programs as their own little fiefdoms in which they do, say and teach pretty much exactly what they want, regardless as to whether or not it fits in with Catholic teaching at all.

That is more than likely the reason you don’t see more Traditionalists involved. If you can get your foot in the door and in many places that is a very big if, you are constantly being monitored, watched over and having your lessons derided by the more progressive and liberal minded. You are pretty much required to adhere to lesson plans that far from teaching anything about Catholicism meander mindlessly around with stirring platitudes about love respect and tolerance for all. Yes, the teaching of the Social Gospel,where the ultimate aim of religion is the ethical raising of society is pretty big in RCIA and CCD classes.

I am quite sure that my experience in this area is far from rare and in fact is probably the norm, except in the more traditional and conservative Parishes.

Now I know that there are good solid Parishes with good solid catechisis, but from attending workshops over the years and going to re-certification classes, as well as instructing in several different parishes , I can tell you, the progressives have pretty close to full control and have no intention of giving it up.

I’ve taught CCD, however as soon as I nicely asked my Pastor whether he was going to have a TLM (and after he told me that he thought the Pope’s MP was a very bad idea and that no other priest in the diocese would do it either) I was “demoted” to only teaching very young children as a substitute only. I’ve found a more orthodox parish (I think this priest is going to have a TLM, too) and hope to be able to join the RCIA team there this summer.

 

[MikeDunphy]

…She had no idea about the Real Presence. You think they would let me teach RCIA or CCD there?

If circumstances permit you to try at some point, you might be surprised. On another forum, a conservative/traditionalist CCD teacher complained about being removed from the program by his very liberal Director of Religious Education, but that only happened when he decided to show her the teaching materials he was using.

At his parish, and at my parish, and I’m sure at many others, they really do not monitor what the kids are being taught very closely. If you just calmly and discreetly assume that of course your students are supposed to be taught the fullness of the faith, you will probably be able to bring in solid supplemental material without anyone noticing.

 

[scylla]

Just do what I do,
Use the back of the coloring sheet so that after the kids get done coloring the silly rainbow or hearts, etc print up some real Catechesis on the back.
The director of religious ed sees you carrying in the dumbed down lesson plans and in class you actually teach Catholicism.

I teach religious education, a faith formation class, I assist at the Mass (which is difficult with all the abuses my Bishop allows), I teach additional faith classes, I am part of the Knights of Columbus, and I help out in the Library.

Most traditionalists I see are very involved in the faith and being involved in the faith doesn’t always mean doing something in front of everyone. It seems somewhat uncatholic to think that contribution requires an “ministry” (are we protestants?) what about private prayer, confession, Mass attendance, raising Catholic children, learning the faith and sharing, that is way more important than being involved at the Parish.

Who cares if you are EMHC#14 if your kids are not going to confession every month or so and you aren’t either, then you need to get involved with the faith on a more personal level instead of a public level.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[ThereseMarie]

Slava Isusu Christu!

I unofficially teach a very small group (16 or so children, ages 10-16) their catechism from the Baltimore Catechism in my home after Mass every other Sunday. Because most of these kids are homeschooled, I consider this class to be part of their homeschool curriculum. Plus, I honestly don’t think that anyone really cares.

Several years ago, my husband and I offered to purchase for our parish as many copies of the Baltimore Catechism as they needed, and we also gave the parish a gift of $10,000 so that the Religious Ed director could purchase whatever materials for the CCD classes that she needed. I had in mind a very traditional CCD class like what I grew up with, i.e., memorizing the answers to the questions in the BC, the Laws of the Church, all the traditional Catholic prayers etc, and some apologetics too. However, I was told that the Baltimore Catechism was no longer used since it is not considered adequate or useful and too “old-fashioned.” Unfortunately, I was unimpressed with the workbooks that had been selected by the RE Director. For that reason and a few more (e.g. some of the children were teasing and taunting each other, and being generally ill-mannered), I decided to teach the children at home.

Does anyone know what is wrong with the good ol’ Baltimore Catechism? I believe it was first written and used in 1885 up until the 1970’s. Has the Church decided it is too old to be useful?

PS where can I go to find out what exactly a “traditionalist” is? I am wondering if I am one…

 

[Brother_John]

Does anyone know what is wrong with the good ol’ Baltimore Catechism? I believe it was first written and used in 1885 up until the 1970’s. Has the Church decided it is too old to be useful?

Well, I’m setting myself up to be piled on again, but…

Is the Baltimore Catechism really the way to reach out to today’s youth to open their eyes to their faith? Like you, I was taught out of it…and if you read it cover to cover (twice) like I did, you come away with the impression that pretty much all of us are headed to Hades anyway.

Nobody can measure up to everything in that book, if they’re truthful with themselves.

So, what can we use to teach our youth, that they will at least ponder before dismissing it?

 

[SemperFidelis]

you come away with the impression that pretty much all of us are headed to Hades anyway.

Well that much is true. Do you deny this? The Bible states most people won’t go to heaven, and a large majority of the Saints confirmed this. Even the new Catechism re-affirms this.

 

[scylla]

Well, I’m setting myself up to be piled on again, but…

Is the Baltimore Catechism really the way to reach out to today’s youth to open their eyes to their faith? Like you, I was taught out of it…and if you read it cover to cover (twice) like I did, you come away with the impression that pretty much all of us are headed to Hades anyway.

Nobody can measure up to everything in that book, if they’re truthful with themselves.

So, what can we use to teach our youth, that they will at least ponder before dismissing it?

Why not? With frequent confession every month or so it actually becomes easier and easier. Why is it different now than then? Does God’s standards change?
I know it isn’t fashionable, but sin does matter.
We are still held to the same standards of holiness. Jesus said the path is narrow, that does mean that many go to Hell. It may sound harsh but that is what the Bible teaches and if you really talk to people and hear their attitude about God what they want.
People want cheap salvation and self worship, it is hard to leave that behind.

I am not saying we need to be mean and all fire and brimstone but we need to present reality, and if you look the Baltimore Cathechism does that, and if you look at the more advanced books it explains a whole lot more. Now I agree that we can explain it a bit better but we should never water it down.
I am with you on finding ways to better explain the faith, but the last 40 or so years of terrible catechesis shows that watering it down just destroys faith.

Do you want to present it in more comprehensive and easy to understand formats, encouraging further inquiry? I agree, the faith is perfect and always there is a logical answer to every question. The reason I am Catholic today is because of asking questions, only Catholicism had the answers, and only Catholicism could claim to be the perfect faith.

God Bless
Scylla